Sabazi
Nov 29th, 2005, 8:57 AM
Has anyone heard of the Gospel of Thomas? It makes no claim of Jesus' divinity and contains some teachings not in the usual bible.
View Full Version : Gospel of Thomas
Keeblergiant
Nov 29th, 2005, 10:07 AM
Yeah, I've read it. Great book, more than likely not true. Jesus orders God to strike a man dead in the middle of the city because he refused to let Jesus free the birds in his cage.
Beatnik Bob
Nov 29th, 2005, 2:43 PM
It also says,
Jesus said, when you see one who was NOT born of woman, fall upon your faces and worship, THAT ONE is your father.
Jesus said, when you see one who was NOT born of woman, fall upon your faces and worship, THAT ONE is your father.
Sabazi
Nov 30th, 2005, 2:27 PM
It also says that women won't get to heaven.
Beatnik Bob
Dec 3rd, 2005, 1:48 PM
It also says that women won't get to heaven.
Exactly, you can't trust any of the NT.
Exactly, you can't trust any of the NT.
Beatnik Bob
Dec 5th, 2005, 5:53 PM
Cherisa, no offence but you make my head hert with your ignorance.
1. Yes I've read the NT. Why would I ever stay Jewish if if I hadn't known about other religions? The thing is, I like to know about every religion known to existence before I choose which one I like, and it just so happens that I stuck with the religion I was born into.
2. The only thing a rabbi does is teach people, that's what the word means, teacher. So our rabbi reads Torah and leads servaces and so forth. And they teach Hebrew to the kiddies, so that they can study Torah later on. It's all simply repeat. Rabbis repeat what the Torah says, and the laws described, and they teach the other half of the Torah and its laws decribed. In fact Mishna means 'to repeat.'
3. I know what your trying to get at, your trying to say that I'm stupid, and everyone else who follows a Talmud is stupid as well for not interpreting the Torah themselves.
If this is the case, let me just tell you something, we don't entirely rely on what the rabbis of 2100 years ago said in the Talmud, it's nice and all, and they get alot of respect, but we really follow the Mishna & Torah, which are the laws set down by G-d and Moses. The Talmud is simply people having fun interpreting the Mishna.
4. Yes, I worship the G-d of Avraham Cherisa. And I worship G-d with out an image graven into my mind, thus no graven images. I worship the same G-d Abraham discovered 5,766 years ago. And I use no image to describe G-d, just as it says in Duetoronomy.
I also don't worship Jesus, who of course isn't a real messiah, and said himself he didn't want to be worshipped.
There you have it Chah Ris. And please don't claim to be Jewish anymore. Because your not, and you make my religion seem cheap by claiming to be such.
1. Yes I've read the NT. Why would I ever stay Jewish if if I hadn't known about other religions? The thing is, I like to know about every religion known to existence before I choose which one I like, and it just so happens that I stuck with the religion I was born into.
2. The only thing a rabbi does is teach people, that's what the word means, teacher. So our rabbi reads Torah and leads servaces and so forth. And they teach Hebrew to the kiddies, so that they can study Torah later on. It's all simply repeat. Rabbis repeat what the Torah says, and the laws described, and they teach the other half of the Torah and its laws decribed. In fact Mishna means 'to repeat.'
3. I know what your trying to get at, your trying to say that I'm stupid, and everyone else who follows a Talmud is stupid as well for not interpreting the Torah themselves.
If this is the case, let me just tell you something, we don't entirely rely on what the rabbis of 2100 years ago said in the Talmud, it's nice and all, and they get alot of respect, but we really follow the Mishna & Torah, which are the laws set down by G-d and Moses. The Talmud is simply people having fun interpreting the Mishna.
4. Yes, I worship the G-d of Avraham Cherisa. And I worship G-d with out an image graven into my mind, thus no graven images. I worship the same G-d Abraham discovered 5,766 years ago. And I use no image to describe G-d, just as it says in Duetoronomy.
I also don't worship Jesus, who of course isn't a real messiah, and said himself he didn't want to be worshipped.
There you have it Chah Ris. And please don't claim to be Jewish anymore. Because your not, and you make my religion seem cheap by claiming to be such.
Sabazi
Dec 5th, 2005, 8:47 PM
Exactly, you can't trust any of the NT.
The Gospel of Thomas isn't in the NT.
The Gospel of Thomas isn't in the NT.
Sammy56
Dec 5th, 2005, 10:43 PM
The Gospel of Thomas is a collection of 114 sayings. Here is some links to more information on it-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas
http://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/gosthom.htm
http://www.theologywebsite.com/etext/naghammadi/thomas.shtml
The last one is a page which has the actual translation of the Gospel of Thomas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas
http://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/gosthom.htm
http://www.theologywebsite.com/etext/naghammadi/thomas.shtml
The last one is a page which has the actual translation of the Gospel of Thomas.
Beatnik Bob
Dec 7th, 2005, 6:49 PM
The Gospel of Thomas isn't in the NT.
I'm sorry Sabazi, but it was. But Christians got rid of it because Jesus said things they didn't understand or like.
The Gospel of Thomas is in fact apart of the NT. And everything in there, are things Jesus said.
Christians don't follow Jesus.
Personally I believe Christianity is the anti-christ, assuming Jesus is a christ figure. But then again, Jesus might very well be the anti-christ......*shrugs*
*sighs* (some more superfluous drama nonsense)
Cherisa, I don't dislike you, I get exasperated. You should really know more about Judaism before you claim to be Jewish, seriuosly.
Also, I get exasperated because almost everytime I respond, you never reply, in other words, ignore. I just didn't see the point in posting a responce in the first place, but I did anyway.
And yes, as I've said, you say your Jewish, and yet you ask questions about it, as if you didn't know.
An you make my religion seem cheap by saying you're Jewish, and then clearly implying you are but a Christian instead.
However, I suppose you can still ask questions.
What do you mean you wouldn't have stayed Jewish?
I mean, that If I knew that there was a religion that made more sense, and I accepted more, I would abandon Judaism, but I havn't found such a religion. This is probably just me, but Judaism is probably as good as it gets, as far as religions go.
I was just curious where you were from, Israel or US.
Well, that's not exactly what you were implying........but whatever.
Anyway, that's a tuff one, technically everyones been born in Israel, from a Jewish stand point, unless, of course, you aren't a human.
But I suppose you mean a physical political country labeled on a globe. In that case, I didn't grow up in the literal Israel, but in America. But I have been to Israel......
I'm sorry Sabazi, but it was. But Christians got rid of it because Jesus said things they didn't understand or like.
The Gospel of Thomas is in fact apart of the NT. And everything in there, are things Jesus said.
Christians don't follow Jesus.
Personally I believe Christianity is the anti-christ, assuming Jesus is a christ figure. But then again, Jesus might very well be the anti-christ......*shrugs*
*sighs* (some more superfluous drama nonsense)
Cherisa, I don't dislike you, I get exasperated. You should really know more about Judaism before you claim to be Jewish, seriuosly.
Also, I get exasperated because almost everytime I respond, you never reply, in other words, ignore. I just didn't see the point in posting a responce in the first place, but I did anyway.
And yes, as I've said, you say your Jewish, and yet you ask questions about it, as if you didn't know.
An you make my religion seem cheap by saying you're Jewish, and then clearly implying you are but a Christian instead.
However, I suppose you can still ask questions.
What do you mean you wouldn't have stayed Jewish?
I mean, that If I knew that there was a religion that made more sense, and I accepted more, I would abandon Judaism, but I havn't found such a religion. This is probably just me, but Judaism is probably as good as it gets, as far as religions go.
I was just curious where you were from, Israel or US.
Well, that's not exactly what you were implying........but whatever.
Anyway, that's a tuff one, technically everyones been born in Israel, from a Jewish stand point, unless, of course, you aren't a human.
But I suppose you mean a physical political country labeled on a globe. In that case, I didn't grow up in the literal Israel, but in America. But I have been to Israel......
Keeblergiant
Dec 10th, 2005, 11:01 AM
I'm sorry Sabazi, but it was. But Christians got rid of it because Jesus said things they didn't understand or like.
No, Christians never included it in the new testament to begin with. We don't know why this was, but more recent information has come about suggesting that the Gospel of Thomas was actually written after the books of the NT were compiled.
No, Christians never included it in the new testament to begin with. We don't know why this was, but more recent information has come about suggesting that the Gospel of Thomas was actually written after the books of the NT were compiled.
Sabazi
Dec 10th, 2005, 6:43 PM
From what i've heard, it was probably written by Gnostics in the 2nd century AD.
Defiant Noquisi
Dec 11th, 2005, 9:05 AM
Anyway, that's a tuff one, technically everyones been born in Israel, from a Jewish stand point, unless, of course, you aren't a human. Ack! Well then, I must not be human since I descend from people who were not born in the Middle East.:amaz:
New Creature
Dec 11th, 2005, 2:14 PM
Things I have recently learned and have come to understand.
The Old Testament was ALL about Jesus. It pointed towards His coming and gave us vital clues to it. I.e. Daniels 70 week prophecy. (I'd like to see a non Christian Jews explain that one. And also to clarify that all Christians are JEWS!) Btw, can you explain what it means to be a Jew beatnik? Literal and symbolic? You surly didn’t act like one when you expelled Cherish from your beliefs simple because she/He didn’t fit into your interpretation of Truth.
You make your religion an every man for himself religion which is NOT from a Loving Father.
The Old Testament was all about Jesus. It pointed forward to his birth, his death, and his resurrection. His defeating Death and Sin. His grace and love for a fallen race of man. I understand the arguments of, "I never asked to be born, why do I have to believe in God?" Or something along those lines. And the answer is simple. Modern day religions have made salvation way harder then God intended. Man has warped Gods love from the beginning. It is not what we have learned. We have to unlearn everything and start over.
The Old Testament is also a representation of the Physical nation of Israel, while the New Testament is a Spiritual Representation of the Children of Abraham, beit by birth or adoption. Yes God the Father will adopt us if we choose to follow. Look at the correlation between Old Testament - Physical, or The life of Christ. New Testament - spiritual, or the death and resurrection of Christ. Old testament - physical Israel. New Testament - spiritual Israel or Children of God not by birth but by spirit. People would have us believe that being born in certain places or of certain ethnicities would up your chances of making it to heaven. I have a news flash. We are all the same race, which is Human. This is where I believe racism stems from. Isn’t that Ironic?
Following God is not hard, simply submit and God will change you piece by piece. When it comes to sin I got you all licked ten fold. My wrong is heavy on my conscious. But this understanding makes it all the better.
Thou shalt not use Gods name in vain. Which can be looked at many, many ways. From swearing, to making an oath under God and then breaking it (in vain). But one way we have not thought about is using his name in vain for religious purposes. I.e. apostate religion. I do not worship the same God as others and if I have it all wrong and try to teach my brothers and sisters the wrong way to life then am I not using Gods name in vain?
I have been through more then my fair share in this life but if we really think about it from a secular viewpoint or religious, our lives here on planet earth is but a blink in the grand scheme of things.
God is working on all of us right now. It’s like a pick your own path adventure book. WE all kept our finger on the page when we were unsure of the path (cheaters!) me too. Well we can do the same here, we can pick any path, change and go back. However the book will end.
We all have auto insurance just in case we wreck our cars. Having Faith that the company will pay up if we need them to. We place our faith into man before we would ever even imagine placing faith in Christ. Everything is so convoluted that is very hard to see through all the BS and get back to truth. Which will set us free. I am no different than any of you and my life is not harder since I have choosen to take up my cross. Life has a sweeter taste. In fact I went and got 6 more tattoos since my obedience to the father (which is not obedience at all) yet I was convicted, I thought it a tribute to the Father and his Son. How wrong I was because deep inside I did it for vanity. Now I am stamped for life with tattoos all over 17 in all. And only a few did I get as my tribute. My tribute is worthless.
Yet God is so big he can even use my wrong to show me the right. (Personal testimony and wont go beyond this)
P.S. Happy Holidays all! Did anyone see Bush's speech when he tried to give thanks to Christ, and gave it to Santa?! LMAO..
The Old Testament was ALL about Jesus. It pointed towards His coming and gave us vital clues to it. I.e. Daniels 70 week prophecy. (I'd like to see a non Christian Jews explain that one. And also to clarify that all Christians are JEWS!) Btw, can you explain what it means to be a Jew beatnik? Literal and symbolic? You surly didn’t act like one when you expelled Cherish from your beliefs simple because she/He didn’t fit into your interpretation of Truth.
You make your religion an every man for himself religion which is NOT from a Loving Father.
The Old Testament was all about Jesus. It pointed forward to his birth, his death, and his resurrection. His defeating Death and Sin. His grace and love for a fallen race of man. I understand the arguments of, "I never asked to be born, why do I have to believe in God?" Or something along those lines. And the answer is simple. Modern day religions have made salvation way harder then God intended. Man has warped Gods love from the beginning. It is not what we have learned. We have to unlearn everything and start over.
The Old Testament is also a representation of the Physical nation of Israel, while the New Testament is a Spiritual Representation of the Children of Abraham, beit by birth or adoption. Yes God the Father will adopt us if we choose to follow. Look at the correlation between Old Testament - Physical, or The life of Christ. New Testament - spiritual, or the death and resurrection of Christ. Old testament - physical Israel. New Testament - spiritual Israel or Children of God not by birth but by spirit. People would have us believe that being born in certain places or of certain ethnicities would up your chances of making it to heaven. I have a news flash. We are all the same race, which is Human. This is where I believe racism stems from. Isn’t that Ironic?
Following God is not hard, simply submit and God will change you piece by piece. When it comes to sin I got you all licked ten fold. My wrong is heavy on my conscious. But this understanding makes it all the better.
Thou shalt not use Gods name in vain. Which can be looked at many, many ways. From swearing, to making an oath under God and then breaking it (in vain). But one way we have not thought about is using his name in vain for religious purposes. I.e. apostate religion. I do not worship the same God as others and if I have it all wrong and try to teach my brothers and sisters the wrong way to life then am I not using Gods name in vain?
I have been through more then my fair share in this life but if we really think about it from a secular viewpoint or religious, our lives here on planet earth is but a blink in the grand scheme of things.
God is working on all of us right now. It’s like a pick your own path adventure book. WE all kept our finger on the page when we were unsure of the path (cheaters!) me too. Well we can do the same here, we can pick any path, change and go back. However the book will end.
We all have auto insurance just in case we wreck our cars. Having Faith that the company will pay up if we need them to. We place our faith into man before we would ever even imagine placing faith in Christ. Everything is so convoluted that is very hard to see through all the BS and get back to truth. Which will set us free. I am no different than any of you and my life is not harder since I have choosen to take up my cross. Life has a sweeter taste. In fact I went and got 6 more tattoos since my obedience to the father (which is not obedience at all) yet I was convicted, I thought it a tribute to the Father and his Son. How wrong I was because deep inside I did it for vanity. Now I am stamped for life with tattoos all over 17 in all. And only a few did I get as my tribute. My tribute is worthless.
Yet God is so big he can even use my wrong to show me the right. (Personal testimony and wont go beyond this)
P.S. Happy Holidays all! Did anyone see Bush's speech when he tried to give thanks to Christ, and gave it to Santa?! LMAO..
New Creature
Dec 11th, 2005, 2:15 PM
Ack! Well then, I must not be human since I descend from people who were not born in the Middle East.:amaz:
Ahh the birth of racism.
Ahh the birth of racism.
Skygirl
Dec 11th, 2005, 6:29 PM
People would have us believe that being born in certain places or of certain ethnicities would up your chances of making it to heaven. I have a news flash. We are all the same race, which is Human. This is where I believe racism stems from. Isn’t that Ironic?
I think racism stems from a lot more than that. Racism depends quite a bit on circumstance. When I was little I never met another person that was not of my culture until I was four. That person spit on my grandparents. But that didn't make me racist, it made me not like the person who spit on my grandparents. The first person that I ever conversed with that was not of my culture told my grandmother we were going to hell, which is something I had never heard of. All I knew was that it was a particularly bad place, according to this person and that we were going there because we didn't believe in Jesus. Well my very best friend at the time was named Jesus Aguilar and I certainly believed in him because he was my very best friend and he never lied to me. It didn't make me racist but it made me think she was weird because I knew about Jesus and so did my grandparents. He lived with his parents down the path by the creek. The next time I conversed with a person not of my culture was this same woman several months later. She came to see my grandmother and told her that we should go to church and partake in the body of Jesus. I said,'Whats partake?', she said,'It means to take it in to you, we partake of his flesh and blood'. Well I didn't want some crazy lady and her friends to try and eat my best friend so we ran away. This didn't make me racist, it scared the crap out of me and made me afraid of the people who went to church and ate little kids. My next encounter with people not of my culture was when I was removed from my home and sent to live with my other grandparents in the state which I currently reside in. At school children weren't allowed to play with me. They called me a dirty indian. The teachers always made an example out of me at thanksgiving (which was a new concept for me because for us we gave thanks every day, not just once a year). I got picked on a lot because I was of a different ethnicity. Thats what made me racist. It had nothing to do with the crazy lady who wanted us to go to church. It had nothing to do with religion at all. It had everything to do with intolerant children who's parents told me I was a bad person just because I was different. It took me a long time to get past my own personal racism but it never had a thing to do with religion.
Following God is not hard, simply submit and God will change you piece by piece. When it comes to sin I got you all licked ten fold. My wrong is heavy on my conscious. But this understanding makes it all the better.
I don't need to submit to any one or any thing to change and to be a better person. That's a conscious decision that I make in order to be a better person. Why is your wrong heavy on your conscious? You don't need a divine entity to offer you forgiveness, you need to forgive your self.
Thou shalt not use Gods name in vain. Which can be looked at many, many ways. From swearing, to making an oath under God and then breaking it (in vain). But one way we have not thought about is using his name in vain for religious purposes. I.e. apostate religion. I do not worship the same God as others and if I have it all wrong and try to teach my brothers and sisters the wrong way to life then am I not using Gods name in vain?
Gods name has been used to oppress people for eons. There seems to be little respect for people of other belief systems among the dominant belief systems. Me, I don't care what a person believes in, so long as they don't push it on me, what I believe works for me so they can keep their beliefs to themselves.
I have been through more then my fair share in this life but if we really think about it from a secular viewpoint or religious, our lives here on planet earth is but a blink in the grand scheme of things.
Everyone on this planet has been through their fair share. Its all relative. and you're right, it's just a blink so why do people waste their time trying to out god each other when they can be actually helping people (I don't consider trying to change another religious or spiritual belief helping, I consider it to be oppressive bordering on cultural genocide).
God is working on all of us right now. It’s like a pick your own path adventure book. WE all kept our finger on the page when we were unsure of the path (cheaters!) me too. Well we can do the same here, we can pick any path, change and go back. However the book will end.
How can God be working on all of us if we have the free will to pick and choose our path? I'm dandy with my path, it's right for me, it's not harmful to others, I can't see some omnipresent being getting pissed off and throwing a hissy fit because what has worked for my ancestors for longer that christianity has existed works for me.
We all have auto insurance just in case we wreck our cars. Having Faith that the company will pay up if we need them to. We place our faith into man before we would ever even imagine placing faith in Christ. Everything is so convoluted that is very hard to see through all the BS and get back to truth. Which will set us free. I am no different than any of you and my life is not harder since I have choosen to take up my cross. Life has a sweeter taste. In fact I went and got 6 more tattoos since my obedience to the father (which is not obedience at all) yet I was convicted, I thought it a tribute to the Father and his Son. How wrong I was because deep inside I did it for vanity. Now I am stamped for life with tattoos all over 17 in all. And only a few did I get as my tribute. My tribute is worthless.
I work with convicts. Only two of the convicts I work with are christian and they are all indigenous. Only the two that are christian continue to beat themselves up over something that has already been done. The others have done what they can to make peace with their actions, they are the ones who through the accountability of their actions have been able to forgive themselves. They have tattoos, most of which have cultural signifiance and see nothing wrong with this. I have tattoos that have cultural/spiritual significance and they have nothing to do with vanity, they have everything to do with tribute. So you have tattoos. I'll bet that there is a significant story to go with each of your tattoos, they tell stories of who you were and who you are. There is worthiness to that.
Yet God is so big he can even use my wrong to show me the right. (Personal testimony and wont go beyond this)
I still don't see how our having tattoos is wrong. I guess its a cultural religious thing that I will never understand. But if you can use them as part of your personal testimony and perhaps to help others whats the wrong in that? Say theres a young kid who is heading down the 'wrong path'. He sees you, I dunno, at the convenience store or something and checks your tattoos out. Say he's impressed enough or curious enough about them to start up a conversation. Through conversation with him you are given the chance to talk to this young man about your own experiences and perhaps impress upon him how wrong your previous life choices were. Perhaps this makes an impression on the young man and he begins to turn his life around. Wouldn't that be a good thing?
P.S. Happy Holidays all! Did anyone see Bush's speech when he tried to give thanks to Christ, and gave it to Santa?! LMAO
I don't have television...did that really happen?????
I think racism stems from a lot more than that. Racism depends quite a bit on circumstance. When I was little I never met another person that was not of my culture until I was four. That person spit on my grandparents. But that didn't make me racist, it made me not like the person who spit on my grandparents. The first person that I ever conversed with that was not of my culture told my grandmother we were going to hell, which is something I had never heard of. All I knew was that it was a particularly bad place, according to this person and that we were going there because we didn't believe in Jesus. Well my very best friend at the time was named Jesus Aguilar and I certainly believed in him because he was my very best friend and he never lied to me. It didn't make me racist but it made me think she was weird because I knew about Jesus and so did my grandparents. He lived with his parents down the path by the creek. The next time I conversed with a person not of my culture was this same woman several months later. She came to see my grandmother and told her that we should go to church and partake in the body of Jesus. I said,'Whats partake?', she said,'It means to take it in to you, we partake of his flesh and blood'. Well I didn't want some crazy lady and her friends to try and eat my best friend so we ran away. This didn't make me racist, it scared the crap out of me and made me afraid of the people who went to church and ate little kids. My next encounter with people not of my culture was when I was removed from my home and sent to live with my other grandparents in the state which I currently reside in. At school children weren't allowed to play with me. They called me a dirty indian. The teachers always made an example out of me at thanksgiving (which was a new concept for me because for us we gave thanks every day, not just once a year). I got picked on a lot because I was of a different ethnicity. Thats what made me racist. It had nothing to do with the crazy lady who wanted us to go to church. It had nothing to do with religion at all. It had everything to do with intolerant children who's parents told me I was a bad person just because I was different. It took me a long time to get past my own personal racism but it never had a thing to do with religion.
Following God is not hard, simply submit and God will change you piece by piece. When it comes to sin I got you all licked ten fold. My wrong is heavy on my conscious. But this understanding makes it all the better.
I don't need to submit to any one or any thing to change and to be a better person. That's a conscious decision that I make in order to be a better person. Why is your wrong heavy on your conscious? You don't need a divine entity to offer you forgiveness, you need to forgive your self.
Thou shalt not use Gods name in vain. Which can be looked at many, many ways. From swearing, to making an oath under God and then breaking it (in vain). But one way we have not thought about is using his name in vain for religious purposes. I.e. apostate religion. I do not worship the same God as others and if I have it all wrong and try to teach my brothers and sisters the wrong way to life then am I not using Gods name in vain?
Gods name has been used to oppress people for eons. There seems to be little respect for people of other belief systems among the dominant belief systems. Me, I don't care what a person believes in, so long as they don't push it on me, what I believe works for me so they can keep their beliefs to themselves.
I have been through more then my fair share in this life but if we really think about it from a secular viewpoint or religious, our lives here on planet earth is but a blink in the grand scheme of things.
Everyone on this planet has been through their fair share. Its all relative. and you're right, it's just a blink so why do people waste their time trying to out god each other when they can be actually helping people (I don't consider trying to change another religious or spiritual belief helping, I consider it to be oppressive bordering on cultural genocide).
God is working on all of us right now. It’s like a pick your own path adventure book. WE all kept our finger on the page when we were unsure of the path (cheaters!) me too. Well we can do the same here, we can pick any path, change and go back. However the book will end.
How can God be working on all of us if we have the free will to pick and choose our path? I'm dandy with my path, it's right for me, it's not harmful to others, I can't see some omnipresent being getting pissed off and throwing a hissy fit because what has worked for my ancestors for longer that christianity has existed works for me.
We all have auto insurance just in case we wreck our cars. Having Faith that the company will pay up if we need them to. We place our faith into man before we would ever even imagine placing faith in Christ. Everything is so convoluted that is very hard to see through all the BS and get back to truth. Which will set us free. I am no different than any of you and my life is not harder since I have choosen to take up my cross. Life has a sweeter taste. In fact I went and got 6 more tattoos since my obedience to the father (which is not obedience at all) yet I was convicted, I thought it a tribute to the Father and his Son. How wrong I was because deep inside I did it for vanity. Now I am stamped for life with tattoos all over 17 in all. And only a few did I get as my tribute. My tribute is worthless.
I work with convicts. Only two of the convicts I work with are christian and they are all indigenous. Only the two that are christian continue to beat themselves up over something that has already been done. The others have done what they can to make peace with their actions, they are the ones who through the accountability of their actions have been able to forgive themselves. They have tattoos, most of which have cultural signifiance and see nothing wrong with this. I have tattoos that have cultural/spiritual significance and they have nothing to do with vanity, they have everything to do with tribute. So you have tattoos. I'll bet that there is a significant story to go with each of your tattoos, they tell stories of who you were and who you are. There is worthiness to that.
Yet God is so big he can even use my wrong to show me the right. (Personal testimony and wont go beyond this)
I still don't see how our having tattoos is wrong. I guess its a cultural religious thing that I will never understand. But if you can use them as part of your personal testimony and perhaps to help others whats the wrong in that? Say theres a young kid who is heading down the 'wrong path'. He sees you, I dunno, at the convenience store or something and checks your tattoos out. Say he's impressed enough or curious enough about them to start up a conversation. Through conversation with him you are given the chance to talk to this young man about your own experiences and perhaps impress upon him how wrong your previous life choices were. Perhaps this makes an impression on the young man and he begins to turn his life around. Wouldn't that be a good thing?
P.S. Happy Holidays all! Did anyone see Bush's speech when he tried to give thanks to Christ, and gave it to Santa?! LMAO
I don't have television...did that really happen?????
Beatnik Bob
Dec 11th, 2005, 9:44 PM
Ack! Well then, I must not be human since I descend from people who were not born in the Middle East.:amaz:
Oh shmekah. I just now realized, while scanning through the posts, how deragatory and prejudice that sounded. Sorry DN, I should have clarified that Israel in Judaism does not always refer to a physical land mass. It actually almost ALWAYS refers to HUMANITY in the Torah. So what I meant is that if you aren't apart of humanity, you of course, are not human.
But actually that remids me. In the Hebrew language Israel many times refers to the 'Son of God' that is why Christians are so messed up, they think Jesus was the son of G-d, when in fact humanity is.
Again, sorry for the missunderstanding Defiant Noquisi.
Oh shmekah. I just now realized, while scanning through the posts, how deragatory and prejudice that sounded. Sorry DN, I should have clarified that Israel in Judaism does not always refer to a physical land mass. It actually almost ALWAYS refers to HUMANITY in the Torah. So what I meant is that if you aren't apart of humanity, you of course, are not human.
But actually that remids me. In the Hebrew language Israel many times refers to the 'Son of God' that is why Christians are so messed up, they think Jesus was the son of G-d, when in fact humanity is.
Again, sorry for the missunderstanding Defiant Noquisi.
New Creature
Dec 11th, 2005, 11:22 PM
Yes Sky, although done in a light hearted manor it is a perfect example of how Christians are getting a bad name. Most of your examples are in the same category imo. It is not a reference for all Christians. This is stereo typing. If some you just met says they are Christians you most recent (unpleasant) memories would be your foundation for what you think of them. You have made an opinion of them before you every new what their beliefs are.
Also, it is going against the grain biblically to get tattooed. Thus my conviction. *Put into context for the sake of further argument. Yes, there might be cosmetic implications that could benefit someone and this I cannot be the judge of, but I sincerely think that it is the underlying reasoning behind anything we do that determines if we ourselves can except this as sin or not. i.e. a women mauled by a dog has a tattoo to make her "look" acceptable in modern society (hard to say) but personally (for what its worth) I can see no fault in this.
A young punk wants to spend thousands of dollars to mark his body for vanity purposes (me). There is much wrong with this scenario. I put myself first, disobeyed Gods law, went against my parents best wishes (Honor thy father and mother), so on and so fourth. Anyways I have just added to what I would complain about. Giving Christians a bad rap. How can I call myself a Christian when I wear the badge of heathens all over my body? Donno but I'll try.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47693
Throughout history the individuals whom followed Christ (True Christians) would have never participated in the Crusades.
Also, it is going against the grain biblically to get tattooed. Thus my conviction. *Put into context for the sake of further argument. Yes, there might be cosmetic implications that could benefit someone and this I cannot be the judge of, but I sincerely think that it is the underlying reasoning behind anything we do that determines if we ourselves can except this as sin or not. i.e. a women mauled by a dog has a tattoo to make her "look" acceptable in modern society (hard to say) but personally (for what its worth) I can see no fault in this.
A young punk wants to spend thousands of dollars to mark his body for vanity purposes (me). There is much wrong with this scenario. I put myself first, disobeyed Gods law, went against my parents best wishes (Honor thy father and mother), so on and so fourth. Anyways I have just added to what I would complain about. Giving Christians a bad rap. How can I call myself a Christian when I wear the badge of heathens all over my body? Donno but I'll try.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47693
Throughout history the individuals whom followed Christ (True Christians) would have never participated in the Crusades.
Skygirl
Dec 12th, 2005, 12:35 AM
Yes Sky, although done in a light hearted manor it is a perfect example of how Christians are getting a bad name. Most of your examples are in the same category imo. It is not a reference for all Christians. This is stereo typing. If some you just met says they are Christians you most recent (unpleasant) memories would be your foundation for what you think of them. You have made an opinion of them before you every new what their beliefs are.
In what way did the things I stated show an example of how christians are getting a bad name? It was an interaction of two culturally different people who didn't understand each other. She didn't understand that what she was saying could easily be misconstrued by a little girl and I had absolutely no reference point to the things she was discussing aside from having a friend named Jesus. Now if she had started singing 'What a Friend We Have In Jesus' I would have thought she was pretty cool for singing about my best friend. I have no idea what the religious beliefs of the kids that treated me differently when I moved off reserve was. Their religious beliefs had nothing to do with it. The fact that they hated me because I was different had everything to do with it. I have had positive and negative experiences with christians. Just like I have had positive and negative experiences with other Indian people, and department store clerks, and clowns, and janitors, and doctors, and I could go on and on.
Also, it is going against the grain biblically to get tattooed. Thus my conviction. *Put into context for the sake of further argument. Yes, there might be cosmetic implications that could benefit someone and this I cannot be the judge of, but I sincerely think that it is the underlying reasoning behind anything we do that determines if we ourselves can except this as sin or not. i.e. a women mauled by a dog has a tattoo to make her "look" acceptable in modern society (hard to say) but personally (for what its worth) I can see no fault in this.
A young punk wants to spend thousands of dollars to mark his body for vanity purposes (me). There is much wrong with this scenario. I put myself first, disobeyed Gods law, went against my parents best wishes (Honor thy father and mother), so on and so fourth. Anyways I have just added to what I would complain about. Giving Christians a bad rap. How can I call myself a Christian when I wear the badge of heathens all over my body? Donno but I'll try.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47693
Throughout history the individuals whom followed Christ (True Christians) would have never participated in the Crusades.
Leviticus 19:28 says no tattoos. Leviticus also says not to trim your beard or cut the hair on the sides of your head or wear clothing woven of two materials or eat shellfish, gives details on how to make the proper kind of offering and inaccurate diagnosis of leprosy.
Do you think God cares if you have tattoos? Do you really think he cares about what you did before hand? Read Matthew 15:11,Matthew 22:36-40,Romans 3:20-26,Romans 5:1-2,Romans 5:8-11,Galatians 2:21,Galatians 3:13,Galatians 3:22. Of course you can call yourself a christian (and just to keep this on topic the Gospel of Thomas states Blessed are those who have been prosecuted within themselves.It is they who have truly come to know the Father.).
And being that I'm a 'heathen', it's all copacetic for me :)
Thank you for the link.
In what way did the things I stated show an example of how christians are getting a bad name? It was an interaction of two culturally different people who didn't understand each other. She didn't understand that what she was saying could easily be misconstrued by a little girl and I had absolutely no reference point to the things she was discussing aside from having a friend named Jesus. Now if she had started singing 'What a Friend We Have In Jesus' I would have thought she was pretty cool for singing about my best friend. I have no idea what the religious beliefs of the kids that treated me differently when I moved off reserve was. Their religious beliefs had nothing to do with it. The fact that they hated me because I was different had everything to do with it. I have had positive and negative experiences with christians. Just like I have had positive and negative experiences with other Indian people, and department store clerks, and clowns, and janitors, and doctors, and I could go on and on.
Also, it is going against the grain biblically to get tattooed. Thus my conviction. *Put into context for the sake of further argument. Yes, there might be cosmetic implications that could benefit someone and this I cannot be the judge of, but I sincerely think that it is the underlying reasoning behind anything we do that determines if we ourselves can except this as sin or not. i.e. a women mauled by a dog has a tattoo to make her "look" acceptable in modern society (hard to say) but personally (for what its worth) I can see no fault in this.
A young punk wants to spend thousands of dollars to mark his body for vanity purposes (me). There is much wrong with this scenario. I put myself first, disobeyed Gods law, went against my parents best wishes (Honor thy father and mother), so on and so fourth. Anyways I have just added to what I would complain about. Giving Christians a bad rap. How can I call myself a Christian when I wear the badge of heathens all over my body? Donno but I'll try.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47693
Throughout history the individuals whom followed Christ (True Christians) would have never participated in the Crusades.
Leviticus 19:28 says no tattoos. Leviticus also says not to trim your beard or cut the hair on the sides of your head or wear clothing woven of two materials or eat shellfish, gives details on how to make the proper kind of offering and inaccurate diagnosis of leprosy.
Do you think God cares if you have tattoos? Do you really think he cares about what you did before hand? Read Matthew 15:11,Matthew 22:36-40,Romans 3:20-26,Romans 5:1-2,Romans 5:8-11,Galatians 2:21,Galatians 3:13,Galatians 3:22. Of course you can call yourself a christian (and just to keep this on topic the Gospel of Thomas states Blessed are those who have been prosecuted within themselves.It is they who have truly come to know the Father.).
And being that I'm a 'heathen', it's all copacetic for me :)
Thank you for the link.
Beatnik Bob
Dec 12th, 2005, 8:37 PM
Actually the original Torah has meanings that the Christians don't accept, like the language being the Torah, and the interpritation (Mishna) being the dictionary.
I don't have the whole Mishna but I know that that tattooing stuff MEANS something, except meanings are lost in the translation from Hebrew to Greek to English. Hebrew is a very idiomatic language.
Just like circumsision. It makes no sense to cut away the foreskin. That's because it symbolises feeling. Hint: When you have sex with a circumcised penis, you feel more...more fealing.
I don't have the whole Mishna but I know that that tattooing stuff MEANS something, except meanings are lost in the translation from Hebrew to Greek to English. Hebrew is a very idiomatic language.
Just like circumsision. It makes no sense to cut away the foreskin. That's because it symbolises feeling. Hint: When you have sex with a circumcised penis, you feel more...more fealing.
Philosopher Foelhe
Dec 13th, 2005, 12:49 AM
Yes Sky, although done in a light hearted manor it is a perfect example of how Christians are getting a bad name. Most of your examples are in the same category imo. It is not a reference for all Christians. This is stereo typing. If some you just met says they are Christians you most recent (unpleasant) memories would be your foundation for what you think of them. You have made an opinion of them before you every new what their beliefs are.
How is this different than any other group on earth? Some people tend to get stuck on first impressions, so the first person they meet in a group (be it religious or otherwise) tends to be the example they hold all others up to. Christians aren't special in this.
How can I call myself a Christian when I wear the badge of heathens all over my body?
... No, it's moronic nonsense like this that gives Christians a bad name.
Leviticus also says not to trim your beard or cut the hair on the sides of your head or wear clothing woven of two materials or eat shellfish
Oh my God! The pajamas I'm wearing are a cotton/polyester blend! UNCLEAN! UNCLEAN!
How is this different than any other group on earth? Some people tend to get stuck on first impressions, so the first person they meet in a group (be it religious or otherwise) tends to be the example they hold all others up to. Christians aren't special in this.
How can I call myself a Christian when I wear the badge of heathens all over my body?
... No, it's moronic nonsense like this that gives Christians a bad name.
Leviticus also says not to trim your beard or cut the hair on the sides of your head or wear clothing woven of two materials or eat shellfish
Oh my God! The pajamas I'm wearing are a cotton/polyester blend! UNCLEAN! UNCLEAN!
New Creature
Dec 13th, 2005, 4:04 PM
I think Sky girl was being sarcastic. As for my moronic self, is this not one of the basic fundamentals of Christianity? To acknowledge ones wrong doing and understand his or her need for repentance?
I do agree however that it sounds a bit off, but it is what it is. I also smoke cigarettes and cuss and all the things I did before. Only now I am convicted in my spirit. Kinda of like a spiritual alarm clock going off. My heart was hard. I did not care. Now I do, and if you find any wrong or fault therein (at a bare minimum to want to be a better member of society) then you my good sir need to reposition your beliefs and stop arguing about something you do not understand.
*Before you go into the whole you used to be a christian thing, allow me to say that I find it hard to believe someone could turn away from the Savior of the world had they been a true Christian. Therefore you never were a Christian when you left your faith. No dogma, school, amount of time reading the bible or spent in church can make you a Christian.
I do agree however that it sounds a bit off, but it is what it is. I also smoke cigarettes and cuss and all the things I did before. Only now I am convicted in my spirit. Kinda of like a spiritual alarm clock going off. My heart was hard. I did not care. Now I do, and if you find any wrong or fault therein (at a bare minimum to want to be a better member of society) then you my good sir need to reposition your beliefs and stop arguing about something you do not understand.
*Before you go into the whole you used to be a christian thing, allow me to say that I find it hard to believe someone could turn away from the Savior of the world had they been a true Christian. Therefore you never were a Christian when you left your faith. No dogma, school, amount of time reading the bible or spent in church can make you a Christian.
Philosopher Foelhe
Dec 13th, 2005, 7:51 PM
is this not one of the basic fundamentals of Christianity? To acknowledge ones wrong doing and understand his or her need for repentance?
Alright, something you might consider acknowledging - referring to Native Americans as "heathens" is insulting and arrogant. You might try repenting from that.
I also smoke cigarettes and cuss and all the things I did before. Only now I am convicted in my spirit.
So, you haven't made any sacrifices in your life, you haven't given up anything you find comforting but consider wrong, you just have this desire to pat yourself on the back a lot? What exactly does being "convicted in spirit" mean?
My heart was hard. I did not care. Now I do, and if you find any wrong or fault therein (at a bare minimum to want to be a better member of society) then you my good sir need to reposition your beliefs and stop arguing about something you do not understand.
I understand that you called something "heathen", which doesn't exactly sing of your compassion and empathy. And I feel I should point out that, when it comes to being a sterling member of society, I do my part.
Before you go into the whole you used to be a christian thing, allow me to say that I find it hard to believe someone could turn away from the Savior of the world had they been a true Christian. Therefore you never were a Christian when you left your faith. No dogma, school, amount of time reading the bible or spent in church can make you a Christian.
Really. Then what does? Because I doubt you can name anything "Christian" in particular that I didn't have in spades.
Or is this one of those, "You think I'm wrong, therefore you must have no concept of reality" arguments, where the only thing that separates a true Christian from a wannabe Christian is the "fact" that a true Christian would never ever ever ever question his faith?
Alright, something you might consider acknowledging - referring to Native Americans as "heathens" is insulting and arrogant. You might try repenting from that.
I also smoke cigarettes and cuss and all the things I did before. Only now I am convicted in my spirit.
So, you haven't made any sacrifices in your life, you haven't given up anything you find comforting but consider wrong, you just have this desire to pat yourself on the back a lot? What exactly does being "convicted in spirit" mean?
My heart was hard. I did not care. Now I do, and if you find any wrong or fault therein (at a bare minimum to want to be a better member of society) then you my good sir need to reposition your beliefs and stop arguing about something you do not understand.
I understand that you called something "heathen", which doesn't exactly sing of your compassion and empathy. And I feel I should point out that, when it comes to being a sterling member of society, I do my part.
Before you go into the whole you used to be a christian thing, allow me to say that I find it hard to believe someone could turn away from the Savior of the world had they been a true Christian. Therefore you never were a Christian when you left your faith. No dogma, school, amount of time reading the bible or spent in church can make you a Christian.
Really. Then what does? Because I doubt you can name anything "Christian" in particular that I didn't have in spades.
Or is this one of those, "You think I'm wrong, therefore you must have no concept of reality" arguments, where the only thing that separates a true Christian from a wannabe Christian is the "fact" that a true Christian would never ever ever ever question his faith?
Skygirl
Dec 13th, 2005, 8:21 PM
I think Sky girl was being sarcastic. As for my moronic self, is this not one of the basic fundamentals of Christianity? To acknowledge ones wrong doing and understand his or her need for repentance?
I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I was relating real life experiences. I was showing how my interaction with christianity did not make me a racist, unfounded intolerance did.
I do agree however that it sounds a bit off, but it is what it is. I also smoke cigarettes and cuss and all the things I did before. Only now I am convicted in my spirit. Kinda of like a spiritual alarm clock going off. My heart was hard. I did not care. Now I do, and if you find any wrong or fault therein (at a bare minimum to want to be a better member of society) then you my good sir need to reposition your beliefs and stop arguing about something you do not understand.
I'm confused. You found Jesus, which is good if christianity is the spiritual path you want to persue. You have concern over your tattoos which you can't change without expensive surgery yet you wont make the simple changes of not cussing and quitting smoking. If you're going to talk the talk in my opinion you should walk the walk. But then I'm just a heathen...what would I know :headbang:
*Before you go into the whole you used to be a christian thing, allow me to say that I find it hard to believe someone could turn away from the Savior of the world had they been a true Christian. Therefore you never were a Christian when you left your faith. No dogma, school, amount of time reading the bible or spent in church can make you a Christian.
I was never a christian. I did however, against my own personal wishes, attend bible college all be it for only six months before it was suggested that perhaps I find a different school to attend. In looking at the bible and christianity from a secular point of view I see a lot of inconsistancies, a lot of pompousity and a lot of lack of knowledge. I studied the bible as curriculum, I found it to have a lot of positive values which are ignored by many christians. I see a lack of humbleness, humility, forgiveness and compassion from the most supposedly pios individuals. I am in no way 'bashing' christians, it's simply an observation. Christianity is something that works for many people and if it is beneficial to them then I see that as a good thing. When it puts them in a place of being better than other I have a serious problem with it.
I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I was relating real life experiences. I was showing how my interaction with christianity did not make me a racist, unfounded intolerance did.
I do agree however that it sounds a bit off, but it is what it is. I also smoke cigarettes and cuss and all the things I did before. Only now I am convicted in my spirit. Kinda of like a spiritual alarm clock going off. My heart was hard. I did not care. Now I do, and if you find any wrong or fault therein (at a bare minimum to want to be a better member of society) then you my good sir need to reposition your beliefs and stop arguing about something you do not understand.
I'm confused. You found Jesus, which is good if christianity is the spiritual path you want to persue. You have concern over your tattoos which you can't change without expensive surgery yet you wont make the simple changes of not cussing and quitting smoking. If you're going to talk the talk in my opinion you should walk the walk. But then I'm just a heathen...what would I know :headbang:
*Before you go into the whole you used to be a christian thing, allow me to say that I find it hard to believe someone could turn away from the Savior of the world had they been a true Christian. Therefore you never were a Christian when you left your faith. No dogma, school, amount of time reading the bible or spent in church can make you a Christian.
I was never a christian. I did however, against my own personal wishes, attend bible college all be it for only six months before it was suggested that perhaps I find a different school to attend. In looking at the bible and christianity from a secular point of view I see a lot of inconsistancies, a lot of pompousity and a lot of lack of knowledge. I studied the bible as curriculum, I found it to have a lot of positive values which are ignored by many christians. I see a lack of humbleness, humility, forgiveness and compassion from the most supposedly pios individuals. I am in no way 'bashing' christians, it's simply an observation. Christianity is something that works for many people and if it is beneficial to them then I see that as a good thing. When it puts them in a place of being better than other I have a serious problem with it.
Skygirl
Dec 13th, 2005, 8:44 PM
Alright, something you might consider acknowledging - referring to Native Americans as "heathens" is insulting and arrogant. You might try repenting from that.
Actually I don't mind being called a heathen. If he was using the word to try and cause insult he didn't :)
So, you haven't made any sacrifices in your life, you haven't given up anything you find comforting but consider wrong, you just have this desire to pat yourself on the back a lot? What exactly does being "convicted in spirit" mean?
See PF, this is what I don't get about christians, especially the newly converted. It's sort of...counter productive I would think. His tats are already there and theres little he can do about them but he still smokes and cusses, both of which can be changed.
I understand that you called something "heathen", which doesn't exactly sing of your compassion and empathy. And I feel I should point out that, when it comes to being a sterling member of society, I do my part.
Again, something I don't get. IF he intended to use the word as an isult I don't think his god would be ver happy. Unless I missed something in the bible that says it's okay to be mean to people. I see the behavior of many non-christian people in the world as more christianly that those who supposedly have faith in that belief system. I know more people that operate on Christs tenents because they are simply nice people and care about humanity than bible thumping individuals. I've seen more christ like behavior in the damned prisons than in many churches (as individuals not the 'church' as a whole).
Or is this one of those, "You think I'm wrong, therefore you must have no concept of reality" arguments, where the only thing that separates a true Christian from a wannabe Christian is the "fact" that a true Christian would never ever ever ever question his faith?
Or maybe it's the whole my daddy is bigger than your daddy thing. The newly converted seem to like to take pot shots at those they deem to be beneath them. Didn't Jesus say he who is without sin may cast the first stone? I could have sworn he did but then, I'm just a silly little heathen :)
Actually I don't mind being called a heathen. If he was using the word to try and cause insult he didn't :)
So, you haven't made any sacrifices in your life, you haven't given up anything you find comforting but consider wrong, you just have this desire to pat yourself on the back a lot? What exactly does being "convicted in spirit" mean?
See PF, this is what I don't get about christians, especially the newly converted. It's sort of...counter productive I would think. His tats are already there and theres little he can do about them but he still smokes and cusses, both of which can be changed.
I understand that you called something "heathen", which doesn't exactly sing of your compassion and empathy. And I feel I should point out that, when it comes to being a sterling member of society, I do my part.
Again, something I don't get. IF he intended to use the word as an isult I don't think his god would be ver happy. Unless I missed something in the bible that says it's okay to be mean to people. I see the behavior of many non-christian people in the world as more christianly that those who supposedly have faith in that belief system. I know more people that operate on Christs tenents because they are simply nice people and care about humanity than bible thumping individuals. I've seen more christ like behavior in the damned prisons than in many churches (as individuals not the 'church' as a whole).
Or is this one of those, "You think I'm wrong, therefore you must have no concept of reality" arguments, where the only thing that separates a true Christian from a wannabe Christian is the "fact" that a true Christian would never ever ever ever question his faith?
Or maybe it's the whole my daddy is bigger than your daddy thing. The newly converted seem to like to take pot shots at those they deem to be beneath them. Didn't Jesus say he who is without sin may cast the first stone? I could have sworn he did but then, I'm just a silly little heathen :)
New Creature
Dec 13th, 2005, 11:08 PM
I see myself perusing a path I did not intend to but it’s a cycle.
1st of all, I did not call anyone a heathen. I was implying that the practice of tattooing was heathen or pagan.
*Alright, something you might consider acknowledging - referring to Native Americans as "heathens" is insulting and arrogant. You might try repenting from that.*
When and where did I call Native Americans heathen? I am married to a Native American btw.
Also Phil, A person of your intelligence will agree with me when I say that using a post to measure a person’s compassionate heart is hardly worth the effort. When 10 people can read a post and you have 10 different interpretations of the post.
2nd, It really depends how you look at it even If I did call someone a heathen. It is not like calling someone a Jackass. A heathen is simply someone that doesn’t follow the same beliefs as the unheathen(?) Therefore it is just like calling someone an atheist. Is that in insult?
Last but not least,
*So, you haven't made any sacrifices in your life, you haven't given up anything you find comforting but consider wrong, you just have this desire to pat yourself on the back a lot? What exactly does being "convicted in spirit" mean?*
You should well know that being a Christian does not mean one will become perfect or even better then he/she was before in that this person is aware of his/her need for repentance and salvation if you wish to be part of Gods inheritance. Understand I do not believe in a hell that people will go to and suffer for eternity. So there is no real purpose in my mind to follow Christ except to take the gift he offered and thank him with all that I can.
Conviction to me means that the sin I live in is easier to recognize and attempt to abolish. This will never happen until we are with the Lord. Christ died for everyone and our sins are paid for weather you like it or not. The price was paid. You are forgiven even if you don’t ask. However without accepting it, it was for nil.
I never said I was perfect. If I was or could become so then what need would I have for the Christ?
1st of all, I did not call anyone a heathen. I was implying that the practice of tattooing was heathen or pagan.
*Alright, something you might consider acknowledging - referring to Native Americans as "heathens" is insulting and arrogant. You might try repenting from that.*
When and where did I call Native Americans heathen? I am married to a Native American btw.
Also Phil, A person of your intelligence will agree with me when I say that using a post to measure a person’s compassionate heart is hardly worth the effort. When 10 people can read a post and you have 10 different interpretations of the post.
2nd, It really depends how you look at it even If I did call someone a heathen. It is not like calling someone a Jackass. A heathen is simply someone that doesn’t follow the same beliefs as the unheathen(?) Therefore it is just like calling someone an atheist. Is that in insult?
Last but not least,
*So, you haven't made any sacrifices in your life, you haven't given up anything you find comforting but consider wrong, you just have this desire to pat yourself on the back a lot? What exactly does being "convicted in spirit" mean?*
You should well know that being a Christian does not mean one will become perfect or even better then he/she was before in that this person is aware of his/her need for repentance and salvation if you wish to be part of Gods inheritance. Understand I do not believe in a hell that people will go to and suffer for eternity. So there is no real purpose in my mind to follow Christ except to take the gift he offered and thank him with all that I can.
Conviction to me means that the sin I live in is easier to recognize and attempt to abolish. This will never happen until we are with the Lord. Christ died for everyone and our sins are paid for weather you like it or not. The price was paid. You are forgiven even if you don’t ask. However without accepting it, it was for nil.
I never said I was perfect. If I was or could become so then what need would I have for the Christ?
New Creature
Dec 13th, 2005, 11:23 PM
Sky, you are getting things twisted, read into the post please I was posting in reference to Phil, the "used to be christian"
All I said was I wear the mark of heathens. Simply put even in my beliefe of Christ I continued to get tats. Not all of them are a shallow tribute to our heavenly Father. I have some that are extremely evil to look at.
The convition is the motivation to do right. It is also key in knowing God is still with us. For when we are no longer convited in our spirit then our hearts have become hardend. Perhaps I will quit smoking someday, perhaps I will die of lung cancer. What ever the case is the day I need to worry is the day I try and convince myslef that its ok to do wrong.
All I said was I wear the mark of heathens. Simply put even in my beliefe of Christ I continued to get tats. Not all of them are a shallow tribute to our heavenly Father. I have some that are extremely evil to look at.
The convition is the motivation to do right. It is also key in knowing God is still with us. For when we are no longer convited in our spirit then our hearts have become hardend. Perhaps I will quit smoking someday, perhaps I will die of lung cancer. What ever the case is the day I need to worry is the day I try and convince myslef that its ok to do wrong.
Skygirl
Dec 13th, 2005, 11:29 PM
I see myself perusing a path I did not intend to but it’s a cycle. 1st of all, I did not call anyone a heathen. I was implying that the practice of tattooing was heathen or pagan.
2nd, It really depends how you look at it even If I did call someone a heathen. It is not like calling someone a Jackass. A heathen is simply someone that doesn’t follow the same beliefs as the unheathen(?) Therefore it is just like calling someone an atheist. Is that in insult?
I personally did not find the remark insulting. Cause I am one and I have no problem with the fact that I am one.
You should well know that being a Christian does not mean one will become perfect or even better then he/she was before in that this person is aware of his/her need for repentance and salvation if you wish to be part of Gods inheritance. Understand I do not believe in a hell that people will go to and suffer for eternity. So there is no real purpose in my mind to follow Christ except to take the gift he offered and thank him with all that I can.
Isn't this sort of...oh I dunno...selfish? How are you giving thanks to him if you aren't living by his word? I'm not trying to be facetious, sarcastic or rude but honestly I don't get it. Instead of trying to improve yourself your martyring yourself because you have tattoos but on the other hand don't want to change the things that you easily can. It makes no sense to me.
Conviction to me means that the sin I lived in was more easy to recognize and attempt to abolish. This will never happen until we are with the Lord. Christ died for everyone and our sins are paid for weather you like it or not. The price was paid. You are forgiven even if you don’t ask. However without accepting it, it was for nil.
I never said I was perfect. If I was or could become so then what need would I have for the Christ?
Personally, I don't need a divine being to offer me forgiveness. I am accountable for everything I do in life to both myself and those my actions effect. If I wrong another individual it is their forgiveness I seek. It's a lot more difficult to approach a person you have wronged and ask for forgiveness than a being that has no physical presence. It's a lot more difficult to forgive ones self as well. On that note, if your sins have been forgiven, your tattoos are exempt, is that correct?
2nd, It really depends how you look at it even If I did call someone a heathen. It is not like calling someone a Jackass. A heathen is simply someone that doesn’t follow the same beliefs as the unheathen(?) Therefore it is just like calling someone an atheist. Is that in insult?
I personally did not find the remark insulting. Cause I am one and I have no problem with the fact that I am one.
You should well know that being a Christian does not mean one will become perfect or even better then he/she was before in that this person is aware of his/her need for repentance and salvation if you wish to be part of Gods inheritance. Understand I do not believe in a hell that people will go to and suffer for eternity. So there is no real purpose in my mind to follow Christ except to take the gift he offered and thank him with all that I can.
Isn't this sort of...oh I dunno...selfish? How are you giving thanks to him if you aren't living by his word? I'm not trying to be facetious, sarcastic or rude but honestly I don't get it. Instead of trying to improve yourself your martyring yourself because you have tattoos but on the other hand don't want to change the things that you easily can. It makes no sense to me.
Conviction to me means that the sin I lived in was more easy to recognize and attempt to abolish. This will never happen until we are with the Lord. Christ died for everyone and our sins are paid for weather you like it or not. The price was paid. You are forgiven even if you don’t ask. However without accepting it, it was for nil.
I never said I was perfect. If I was or could become so then what need would I have for the Christ?
Personally, I don't need a divine being to offer me forgiveness. I am accountable for everything I do in life to both myself and those my actions effect. If I wrong another individual it is their forgiveness I seek. It's a lot more difficult to approach a person you have wronged and ask for forgiveness than a being that has no physical presence. It's a lot more difficult to forgive ones self as well. On that note, if your sins have been forgiven, your tattoos are exempt, is that correct?
New Creature
Dec 13th, 2005, 11:39 PM
I personally did not find the remark insulting. Cause I am one and I have no problem with the fact that I am one.
Isn't this sort of...oh I dunno...selfish? How are you giving thanks to him if you aren't living by his word? I'm not trying to be facetious, sarcastic or rude but honestly I don't get it. Instead of trying to improve yourself your martyring yourself because you have tattoos but on the other hand don't want to change the things that you easily can. It makes no sense to me.
Personally, I don't need a divine being to offer me forgiveness. I am accountable for everything I do in life to both myself and those my actions effect. If I wrong another individual it is their forgiveness I seek. It's a lot more difficult to approach a person you have wronged and ask for forgiveness than a being that has no physical presence. It's a lot more difficult to forgive ones self as well. On that note, if your sins have been forgiven, your tattoos are exempt, is that correct?
I will not even pretend that I have it all figured out. But according to His word they are forgiven. The hard part for me will be to ignore my tats. The desire or temptation is tremendous for more tats. And women and beer and money all the unfruitful desires of this world. But there is victory. I don’t understand why my tats would be exempt. But for some people cigarettes are not hard to kick. And others it is hard. Erase all my tats and start over. This is how it should be according to his word. Now it is up to me to fight my temptation to finish my back.
As far as severity of sin, there is no such thing. There is abundance of sin (me) but the slightest of lies will slam the doors of heaven in your face just like murder in the eyes of the Father if we do not accept Christ for the redemption of our sins.
And this is the absolute beauty of it all! You are not wrong in your decisions. You have every right in the world to choose what ever it is you want. No one can tell you that you are wrong for worshipping that pink elephant balloon that was floating and couldn’t figure out why. Our Father does not want preprogrammed robots. If he did I assure you we would all be in compliance with the law he has given us.
*Again, something I don't get. IF he intended to use the word as an insult I don't think his god would be ver happy. Unless I missed something in the bible that says it's okay to be mean to people. I see the behavior of many non-christian people in the world as more christianly that those who supposedly have faith in that belief system. I know more people that operate on Christs tenents because they are simply nice people and care about humanity than bible thumping individuals. I've seen more christ like behavior in the damned prisons than in many churches (as individuals not the 'church' as a whole).*
I meant no insult. I agree with you that in today’s society we have what are called Sunday Christians. This was foretold in the word that in the latter days not everyone whom calls themselves a Christians is one. The sad part is I believe it is because of apostate religion entering into Christianity and then spreading like a plague. So the people that are contributing to the apostate belief do not really know they are doing it. This also was foretold in the word i.e. the falling away.
Isn't this sort of...oh I dunno...selfish? How are you giving thanks to him if you aren't living by his word? I'm not trying to be facetious, sarcastic or rude but honestly I don't get it. Instead of trying to improve yourself your martyring yourself because you have tattoos but on the other hand don't want to change the things that you easily can. It makes no sense to me.
Personally, I don't need a divine being to offer me forgiveness. I am accountable for everything I do in life to both myself and those my actions effect. If I wrong another individual it is their forgiveness I seek. It's a lot more difficult to approach a person you have wronged and ask for forgiveness than a being that has no physical presence. It's a lot more difficult to forgive ones self as well. On that note, if your sins have been forgiven, your tattoos are exempt, is that correct?
I will not even pretend that I have it all figured out. But according to His word they are forgiven. The hard part for me will be to ignore my tats. The desire or temptation is tremendous for more tats. And women and beer and money all the unfruitful desires of this world. But there is victory. I don’t understand why my tats would be exempt. But for some people cigarettes are not hard to kick. And others it is hard. Erase all my tats and start over. This is how it should be according to his word. Now it is up to me to fight my temptation to finish my back.
As far as severity of sin, there is no such thing. There is abundance of sin (me) but the slightest of lies will slam the doors of heaven in your face just like murder in the eyes of the Father if we do not accept Christ for the redemption of our sins.
And this is the absolute beauty of it all! You are not wrong in your decisions. You have every right in the world to choose what ever it is you want. No one can tell you that you are wrong for worshipping that pink elephant balloon that was floating and couldn’t figure out why. Our Father does not want preprogrammed robots. If he did I assure you we would all be in compliance with the law he has given us.
*Again, something I don't get. IF he intended to use the word as an insult I don't think his god would be ver happy. Unless I missed something in the bible that says it's okay to be mean to people. I see the behavior of many non-christian people in the world as more christianly that those who supposedly have faith in that belief system. I know more people that operate on Christs tenents because they are simply nice people and care about humanity than bible thumping individuals. I've seen more christ like behavior in the damned prisons than in many churches (as individuals not the 'church' as a whole).*
I meant no insult. I agree with you that in today’s society we have what are called Sunday Christians. This was foretold in the word that in the latter days not everyone whom calls themselves a Christians is one. The sad part is I believe it is because of apostate religion entering into Christianity and then spreading like a plague. So the people that are contributing to the apostate belief do not really know they are doing it. This also was foretold in the word i.e. the falling away.
Skygirl
Dec 14th, 2005, 12:26 AM
Sky, you are getting things twisted, read into the post please I was posting in reference to Phil, the "used to be christian"
All I said was I wear the mark of heathens. Simply put even in my beliefe of Christ I continued to get tats. Not all of them are a shallow tribute to our heavenly Father. I have some that are extremely evil to look at.
The convition is the motivation to do right. It is also key in knowing God is still with us. For when we are no longer convited in our spirit then our hearts have become hardend. Perhaps I will quit smoking someday, perhaps I will die of lung cancer. What ever the case is the day I need to worry is the day I try and convince myslef that its ok to do wrong.
I know you were responding to Phil. But I responded anyway :) And I know you had no evil intent with your heathen remark.
All I said was I wear the mark of heathens. Simply put even in my beliefe of Christ I continued to get tats. Not all of them are a shallow tribute to our heavenly Father. I have some that are extremely evil to look at.
The convition is the motivation to do right. It is also key in knowing God is still with us. For when we are no longer convited in our spirit then our hearts have become hardend. Perhaps I will quit smoking someday, perhaps I will die of lung cancer. What ever the case is the day I need to worry is the day I try and convince myslef that its ok to do wrong.
I know you were responding to Phil. But I responded anyway :) And I know you had no evil intent with your heathen remark.
Skygirl
Dec 14th, 2005, 12:40 AM
I will not even pretend that I have it all figured out. But according to His word they are forgiven. The hard part for me will be to ignore my tats. The desire or temptation is tremendous for more tats. And women and beer and money all the unfruitful desires of this world. But there is victory. I don’t understand why my tats would be exempt. But for some people cigarettes are not hard to kick. And others it is hard. Erase all my tats and start over. This is how it should be according to his word. Now it is up to me to fight my temptation to finish my back.
Well so long as you don't have it all figured out that makes two of us :) I can't imagine being immersed in a belief system and not having it figured out...thats what I love about mine, its simplistic and realistic. 'Erase all you tats and start over. This is how it should be according to his word', isn't that what happens when you ask for forgiveness?
As far as severity of sin, there is no such thing. There is abundance of sin (me) but the slightest of lies will slam the doors of heaven in your face just like murder in the eyes of the Father if we do not accept Christ for the redemption of our sins.
I agree that there is no such thing as severity of 'sin' or wrong doing. You do something bad, its a bad thing period.
And this is the absolute beauty of it all! You are not wrong in your decisions. You have every right in the world to choose what ever it is you want. No one can tell you that you are wrong for worshipping that pink elephant balloon that was floating and couldn’t figure out why. Our Father does not want preprogrammed robots. If he did I assure you we would all be in compliance with the law he has given us.
Hey, who told you about the pink elephant balloon? That wsa supposed to be a secret.
*Again, something I don't get. IF he intended to use the word as an insult I don't think his god would be ver happy. Unless I missed something in the bible that says it's okay to be mean to people. I see the behavior of many non-christian people in the world as more christianly that those who supposedly have faith in that belief system. I know more people that operate on Christs tenents because they are simply nice people and care about humanity than bible thumping individuals. I've seen more christ like behavior in the damned prisons than in many churches (as individuals not the 'church' as a whole).*
I meant no insult. I agree with you that in today’s society we have what are called Sunday Christians. This was foretold in the word that in the latter days not everyone whom calls themselves a Christians is one. The sad part is I believe it is because of apostate religion entering into Christianity and then spreading like a plague. So the people that are contributing to the apostate belief do not really know they are doing it. This also was foretold in the word i.e. the falling away.
I understand that you meant no insult. The whole 'sunday christians' thing is sad really. Do you think they really think that going to church once a week is going to really save them in the end?
Well so long as you don't have it all figured out that makes two of us :) I can't imagine being immersed in a belief system and not having it figured out...thats what I love about mine, its simplistic and realistic. 'Erase all you tats and start over. This is how it should be according to his word', isn't that what happens when you ask for forgiveness?
As far as severity of sin, there is no such thing. There is abundance of sin (me) but the slightest of lies will slam the doors of heaven in your face just like murder in the eyes of the Father if we do not accept Christ for the redemption of our sins.
I agree that there is no such thing as severity of 'sin' or wrong doing. You do something bad, its a bad thing period.
And this is the absolute beauty of it all! You are not wrong in your decisions. You have every right in the world to choose what ever it is you want. No one can tell you that you are wrong for worshipping that pink elephant balloon that was floating and couldn’t figure out why. Our Father does not want preprogrammed robots. If he did I assure you we would all be in compliance with the law he has given us.
Hey, who told you about the pink elephant balloon? That wsa supposed to be a secret.
*Again, something I don't get. IF he intended to use the word as an insult I don't think his god would be ver happy. Unless I missed something in the bible that says it's okay to be mean to people. I see the behavior of many non-christian people in the world as more christianly that those who supposedly have faith in that belief system. I know more people that operate on Christs tenents because they are simply nice people and care about humanity than bible thumping individuals. I've seen more christ like behavior in the damned prisons than in many churches (as individuals not the 'church' as a whole).*
I meant no insult. I agree with you that in today’s society we have what are called Sunday Christians. This was foretold in the word that in the latter days not everyone whom calls themselves a Christians is one. The sad part is I believe it is because of apostate religion entering into Christianity and then spreading like a plague. So the people that are contributing to the apostate belief do not really know they are doing it. This also was foretold in the word i.e. the falling away.
I understand that you meant no insult. The whole 'sunday christians' thing is sad really. Do you think they really think that going to church once a week is going to really save them in the end?
New Creature
Dec 14th, 2005, 9:52 AM
I like you Sky,
I think what is going on today is that we have the instant gradification generation. And with this we want to do juuuuuuuUst enough to sqeek by and make it to heaven. What make this wrong for me (my opinion) is that in doing this we have attributed salvation through works and not grace. Nothing anyone can do will every earn them salvation. They/we are missing the whole point, though mabey through no fault of their own.
Which is why it is important that in scripture there was that induvidual hanging on a cross next to the Christ. He was saved because he believed, not for anything he did. We cannot earn or buy our way into heaven.
I think what is going on today is that we have the instant gradification generation. And with this we want to do juuuuuuuUst enough to sqeek by and make it to heaven. What make this wrong for me (my opinion) is that in doing this we have attributed salvation through works and not grace. Nothing anyone can do will every earn them salvation. They/we are missing the whole point, though mabey through no fault of their own.
Which is why it is important that in scripture there was that induvidual hanging on a cross next to the Christ. He was saved because he believed, not for anything he did. We cannot earn or buy our way into heaven.
Defiant Noquisi
Dec 14th, 2005, 5:30 PM
Oh shmekah. I just now realized, while scanning through the posts, how deragatory and prejudice that sounded. Sorry DN, I should have clarified that Israel in Judaism does not always refer to a physical land mass. It actually almost ALWAYS refers to HUMANITY in the Torah. So what I meant is that if you aren't apart of humanity, you of course, are not human. No probs Bob. You are one of the very few who can post of their religion without beating one over the head with it. IOW, I know your not a self-righteous bastard. Your'e good to me! Thanks for the apology. :)
Defiant Noquisi
Dec 14th, 2005, 5:33 PM
Also, it is going against the grain biblically to get tattooed. Great! I can hardly wait to get mine done then!
New Creature
Dec 14th, 2005, 6:14 PM
And I can hardly wait to finish mine! (I probably wont though) The fight is on, daily bouts with desires, wants, and must do's. I know all the arguments and problems that people have with the God of Abraham. Heck my favorite musical groups are Tool and then Pefect Circle. Hmm not much of a difference but.. There music is full of the angry man vs God lyrics.
Skygirl
Dec 15th, 2005, 1:05 PM
I like you Sky,
I think what is going on today is that we have the instant gradification generation. And with this we want to do juuuuuuuUst enough to sqeek by and make it to heaven. What make this wrong for me (my opinion) is that in doing this we have attributed salvation through works and not grace. Nothing anyone can do will every earn them salvation. They/we are missing the whole point, though mabey through no fault of their own.
Which is why it is important that in scripture there was that induvidual hanging on a cross next to the Christ. He was saved because he believed, not for anything he did. We cannot earn or buy our way into heaven.
I agree with you 100% on the whole instant gratification issue. I see it with my culture all of the time, either decendants or non-indians becoming instantly indigenous after reading a few books or going to a workshop or two. And it just don't work that way! It makes me absolutely nuts. Things that real indians take years to earn the right to participate in these people just rush into it. They don't recognize the subtle things that are important and they don't have the knowledge or skills to deal with things that you don't just wake up and decide to do one day. People have died because of this ignorance and stupidity (people dropping dead in or after a sweat, people dying while on 'vision quest'...stuff like that).
What Nation is your wife?
I think what is going on today is that we have the instant gradification generation. And with this we want to do juuuuuuuUst enough to sqeek by and make it to heaven. What make this wrong for me (my opinion) is that in doing this we have attributed salvation through works and not grace. Nothing anyone can do will every earn them salvation. They/we are missing the whole point, though mabey through no fault of their own.
Which is why it is important that in scripture there was that induvidual hanging on a cross next to the Christ. He was saved because he believed, not for anything he did. We cannot earn or buy our way into heaven.
I agree with you 100% on the whole instant gratification issue. I see it with my culture all of the time, either decendants or non-indians becoming instantly indigenous after reading a few books or going to a workshop or two. And it just don't work that way! It makes me absolutely nuts. Things that real indians take years to earn the right to participate in these people just rush into it. They don't recognize the subtle things that are important and they don't have the knowledge or skills to deal with things that you don't just wake up and decide to do one day. People have died because of this ignorance and stupidity (people dropping dead in or after a sweat, people dying while on 'vision quest'...stuff like that).
What Nation is your wife?
Skygirl
Dec 15th, 2005, 1:09 PM
And I can hardly wait to finish mine! (I probably wont though) The fight is on, daily bouts with desires, wants, and must do's. I know all the arguments and problems that people have with the God of Abraham. Heck my favorite musical groups are Tool and then Pefect Circle. Hmm not much of a difference but.. There music is full of the angry man vs God lyrics.
I'm having a tattoo party within the next few weeks, I don't want to tempt you but you're welcome to come :wink:
I'm a deadhead myself though I do like Rage Against the Machine and Tool.
I'm having a tattoo party within the next few weeks, I don't want to tempt you but you're welcome to come :wink:
I'm a deadhead myself though I do like Rage Against the Machine and Tool.
New Creature
Dec 15th, 2005, 1:54 PM
Ok this will be tuff, My wife is actually Eskimo (Yupik/Inupiat/Inuit). I dont really know if there is a difference between Alaskan Indians, and Lower 48 Indians. Hope I didnt offend.
Skygirl
Dec 15th, 2005, 6:11 PM
Ok this will be tuff, My wife is actually Eskimo (Yupik/Inupiat/Inuit). I dont really know if there is a difference between Alaskan Indians, and Lower 48 Indians. Hope I didnt offend.
No you didn't offend lol. Where un Alaska is her family from? One of my friends is from the village of Holy Cross and DN's step-grammy was Alaskan Native :)
No you didn't offend lol. Where un Alaska is her family from? One of my friends is from the village of Holy Cross and DN's step-grammy was Alaskan Native :)
New Creature
Dec 15th, 2005, 6:34 PM
Most live in Fairbanks but hail from Barrow If I am not mistaken. We live in Fairbanks. I love Alaska!
Skygirl
Dec 15th, 2005, 7:18 PM
For some reason I had thought you were from Canada. I loved Alaska when I visited and have seriously thought about relocating there on several occasions. My 82 year old grandmother went hiking there over the summer :)
New Creature
Dec 15th, 2005, 8:30 PM
off the topic
jeffweeder
Dec 22nd, 2005, 6:01 AM
i reckon the gos of tom aint in the new test because it is totally contradictory with what else is in the nt, and if this thomas is meant to be st thomas then as far as i can see there different people. he aint got no credibility like the other nt writers, who walked ,talked, ate and fished with the MAN, all with the exception of paul ( saul of tarsus) of course , who was roundin them up for the slaughter
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