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Energy
Dec 16th, 2005, 3:36 PM
How come,you haven't seen these news?

http://eu.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=18165
Astronomers have gotten their deepest glimpse into the heart of our Milky Way Galaxy, peering closer to the supermassive black hole at the Galaxy's core then ever before. Using the National Science Foundation's continent-wide Very Long Baseline Array (VLBA), they found that a radio-wave-emitting object at the Galaxy's center would nearly fit between the Earth and the Sun. This is half the size measured in any previous observation.

We're getting tantalizingly close to being able to see an unmistakable signature that would provide the first concrete proof of a supermassive black hole at a galaxy's center," said Zhi-Qiang Shen, of the Shanghai Astronomical Observatory. A black hole is a concentration of mass so dense that not even light can escape its powerful gravitational pull.

The astronomers used the VLBA to measure the size of an object called Sagittarius A* (pronounced "A-star") that marks the exact center of our Galaxy. Last year, a different team announced that their measurements showed the object would fit inside the complete circle of Earth's orbit around the Sun. Shen and his team, by observing at a higher radio frequency, measured Sagittarius A* as half that size.

A mass equal to four million Suns is known to lie within Sagittarius A*, and the new measurement makes the case for a black hole even more compelling than it was previously. Scientists simply don't know of any long-lasting object other than a black hole that could contain this much mass in such a small area. However, they would like to see even stronger proof of a black hole.

"The extremely strong gravitational pull of a black hole has several effects that would produce a distinctive 'shadow' that we think we could see if we can image details about half as small as those in our latest images," said Fred K.Y. Lo, Director of the National Radio Astronomy Observatory and another member of the research team. "Seeing that shadow would be the final proof that a supermassive black hole is at the center of our Galaxy," Lo added.

Many galaxies are believed to have supermassive black holes at their centers, and many of these are much more massive than the Milky Way's black hole. Also, in many other galaxies, the gravitational energy of the black hole is powering superfast "jets" of subatomic particles at nearly the speed of light. Such jets in other galaxies extend outward for thousands of light-years.

The Milky Way's central black hole is much less active than that of many other galaxies, presumably because it has less nearby material to "eat." Astronomers believe that the radio waves they see coming from Sagittarius A* probably are generated by particle jets much shorter than those of more-active galaxies. By observing the object at higher radio frequencies, scientists have detected parts of the jets ever closer to the black hole. The results announced last year were based on observations at 43 GHz, and the latest observations were made at 86 GHz.

"We believe that if we can double the frequency again, we will see the black-hole shadow produced by effects of Einstein's General Relativity theory," Lo said.

In a few years, when the Atacama Large Millimeter Array (ALMA) comes on line, it may be used in conjunction with other millimeter-wave telescopes to make the higher-frequency observations that will reveal the telltale black-hole shadow.

At a distance of 26,000 light-years, the Milky Way's central black hole is the closest such supermassive object. That makes it the most likely one to finally reveal the concrete evidence for a black hole that astronomers have sought for years.
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A Quest to See a Black Hole's Shadow:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/051011_blackhole_shadow.html
At the core of the Milky Way is a supermassive black hole that sucks in light, rendering it virtually invisible. But astronomers say they will be able to see the black hole's overall shadow within a few years.

"The Holy Grail of black hole astronomy is within our grasp," says Avery Broderick of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. "We could see the shadow that the black hole casts on surrounding material, and determine the size and spin of the black hole itself."

Nothing can escape the intense gravitational field of a black hole, not even light. And since they can't emit light, or any other form of matter, there's no visible evidence of their existence. But as matter gets pulled in, it heats up and radiates energy in "hot spots."

Some of this radiation escapes and can be detected.

Astronomers have already detected radiation from hot spots just outside the black hole, and they believe that these will paint a background against which the black hole's profile, or shadow, will stand out.

Since the technology to view the shadow won't be in place for another few years, Broderick and Avi Loeb of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics have designed a model that anticipates what the shadow will look like.

The hot spot of radiation rotates around the black hole, but researchers don't know if the hole itself is spinning or not, so Broderick and Loeb created two scenarios – one with a motionless black hole, and another with one spinning at the maximum rate.

In each scenario, the hot spot is depicted as a rainbow-colored blob rotating around a solid blue disk representing the black hole's accretion disk, where matter heats up and collects before finally being sucked into the black hole.

"It will be really remarkable when observers can see all the way to the edge of the Milky Way's central black hole – a hole 10 million miles in diameter that's more than 25,000 light-years away," Broderick said.

To view the shadow, astronomers will need a radio telescope as large as the Earth. One is already in the works, more or less. Instead of building one impossibly giant telescope, astronomers will combine readings from a collection of submillimeter telescopes from across the continent.

This technique, known as interferometry, has already been used to study long wavelength emissions from outer space. Astronomers believe that studying short wavelength emissions could yield a high-resolution view of the outer region of the black hole.

The gravity well at the Milky Way's center is the best target for observation by interferometry because it covers the largest area in the sky of any known black hole. And an even higher resolution image could be achieved by combining observations from infrared instruments.

"Submillimeter and infrared observations are complementary," said Lincoln Greenhill, also of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. "We need to use both to tackle the problem of getting high-resolution observations. It's the only way to get a complete picture of the galactic center."

But a clear picture of this black hole won't be the only benefit of spotting its shadow. This data will ultimately help astronomers test Einstein's general theory of relativity within the intensely strong gravitational field of a black hole.

"When astronomers achieve it, that first image of the black hole's shadow and inner accretion disk will enter textbooks, and will test our current notions on gravity in the regime where spacetime is strongly curved," Loeb said.

AND WHO SAYS THAT BLACK HOLE CAN'T BE SEEN DIRECTLY,IT WOULD BE IN THE NEXT 10 YEARS WHEN ASTRONOMERS SEE BLACK HOLE'S SHADOW!

Energy
Dec 16th, 2005, 3:37 PM
Awesome,isn't it?

Mezurashi
Dec 16th, 2005, 7:04 PM
well, I'd rather have a supermassive black hole at the center of the galaxy than an unstable mass of supergiant stars that could erupt in a chain reaction of supernovae. too bad there's those massive interstellar dust couds in the way, I bet the real-light view would be fantastic.

Defiant Noquisi
Dec 17th, 2005, 5:41 PM
Damn! A telescope as big as the earth? sheeeeit!

I can hardly wait until they get pics of it, real pics not shadows.

Virgo
Dec 19th, 2005, 1:40 AM
*copy/paste*

I say as DN ^^
We wanna see a black hole!

Energy
Dec 19th, 2005, 6:11 AM
well, I'd rather have a supermassive black hole at the center of the galaxy than an unstable mass of supergiant stars that could erupt in a chain reaction of supernovae. too bad there's those massive interstellar dust couds in the way, I bet the real-light view would be fantastic.

You mean the visible light view,not some infrared or ultraviolet light view?
However,radio-waves are the closest to the visiblwe light,well visible light views and radio-waves views,look almost the same.

Mezurashi
Dec 19th, 2005, 7:22 AM
by 'real-light' I mean that combination of visible light and non-visible bands that are processed by computers to give us those great poster shots of space phenom.

the problem is that there is a curtain of interstellar dust between us and the core, which impedes our view no matter how big a telescope we build here. but then again, maybe that curtain of dust is the only thing keeping this corner of the galaxy liveable (the theory that Core radiation would keep the Galaxy relatively sterilized in any other case).

Energy
Dec 19th, 2005, 10:56 AM
by 'real-light' I mean that combination of visible light and non-visible bands that are processed by computers to give us those great poster shots of space phenom.

the problem is that there is a curtain of interstellar dust between us and the core, which impedes our view no matter how big a telescope we build here. but then again, maybe that curtain of dust is the only thing keeping this corner of the galaxy liveable (the theory that Core radiation would keep the Galaxy relatively sterilized in any other case).

No.not really.Astronomers have already penetrated dust and gas obstacle,look "Supermassive black holes" documentary.The black hole would never be located and found by astronomers,if that what you said was the case.Now,they now at exact place where it is.

Mezurashi
Dec 19th, 2005, 4:54 PM
I was talking about the purely 'visible light' band of the EM spectrum when referencing the curtain of dust. That dust blocks visible light pretty much completely and it impedes the higher radiation bands quite effectively (which is why it has been suggested that life as we know it could not exist on the other side of the dust clouds, too much radiation from the Core).

My huge assumptions are based on a plethora of science info, a veritable mish-mash of data, so I am making Assumptive Statements instead of Absolute Statements - just thought I'd add that here.

What we've been able to glimpse through 'rifts' in the dust clouds seems to indicate a region rich in star formation and, logically, stellar death throes. But the absolute best stuff from the Core is based on observation using telescopes that do not use visible light wavelengths to gather information. Thus what high energy radiation manages to get through the dust clouds (call it a percentage variable, maybe even similar to how our atmosphere blocks a percentage of harmful radiation) gives us a much better look than visible light. All major 'sightings' within the Core region have been made with IR, Radio, X-Ray and other alternate forms of telescope.

A visible light view of the Core would require someting that could see visible light where none is able to pass through. Light bending and refraction techniques probably couldn't deal with the sheer scope of the area involved. We could probably cook up a 'virtual' image from all the other data that is available and it would probably be pretty close to the real thing, though.

Or we could send an extremely fast, extremely powerful telescope probe straight 'up' relative to the galactic plane (aim at due Galactic North) and point it at the Core. Eventually it's angle above the Galactic Plane would give it an unimpeded view, assuming the dust clouds are a smoke ring and not a bubble.

Or, as always, I could have missed some recent development. And the Supermassive Black Holes Documentary deals more with black holes found in other galaxies - no 'visible light' images of our own Core presented as far as I could tell.

Energy
Apr 14th, 2006, 3:22 PM
I was talking about the purely 'visible light' band of the EM spectrum when referencing the curtain of dust. That dust blocks visible light pretty much completely and it impedes the higher radiation bands quite effectively (which is why it has been suggested that life as we know it could not exist on the other side of the dust clouds, too much radiation from the Core).

My huge assumptions are based on a plethora of science info, a veritable mish-mash of data, so I am making Assumptive Statements instead of Absolute Statements - just thought I'd add that here.

What we've been able to glimpse through 'rifts' in the dust clouds seems to indicate a region rich in star formation and, logically, stellar death throes. But the absolute best stuff from the Core is based on observation using telescopes that do not use visible light wavelengths to gather information. Thus what high energy radiation manages to get through the dust clouds (call it a percentage variable, maybe even similar to how our atmosphere blocks a percentage of harmful radiation) gives us a much better look than visible light. All major 'sightings' within the Core region have been made with IR, Radio, X-Ray and other alternate forms of telescope.

A visible light view of the Core would require someting that could see visible light where none is able to pass through. Light bending and refraction techniques probably couldn't deal with the sheer scope of the area involved. We could probably cook up a 'virtual' image from all the other data that is available and it would probably be pretty close to the real thing, though.

Or we could send an extremely fast, extremely powerful telescope probe straight 'up' relative to the galactic plane (aim at due Galactic North) and point it at the Core. Eventually it's angle above the Galactic Plane would give it an unimpeded view, assuming the dust clouds are a smoke ring and not a bubble.

Or, as always, I could have missed some recent development. And the Supermassive Black Holes Documentary deals more with black holes found in other galaxies - no 'visible light' images of our own Core presented as far as I could tell.


The thing is that they will detect radiation that is just outside the black hole,that's why the black hole would be visible,here is the picture of what they recorded,this picture is in radio-waves,and it's only 1 astronomical unit from the black hole:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4647546

Radio-waves are not virtual image,it's real only in different spectrum.All the radio-telescopes will merge together to create a single radio-telescope as big as the Earth-so you see,black holes can be directly seen.

daro2096
Apr 14th, 2006, 10:59 PM
I don't understand this. On one hand they say no light can escape a black hole but radiation can?

How can radiation escape a black hole if light can't? Or does radiation move faster than light?

This doesn't make sense to me.

Energy
Apr 15th, 2006, 3:12 PM
I don't understand this. On one hand they say no light can escape a black hole but radiation can?

How can radiation escape a black hole if light can't? Or does radiation move faster than light?

This doesn't make sense to me.

No,really.it's radiation that is just outside the black hole,it's very close and it's about to fall into the black hole.

Energy
Apr 15th, 2006, 3:16 PM
I was talking about the purely 'visible light' band of the EM spectrum when referencing the curtain of dust. That dust blocks visible light pretty much completely and it impedes the higher radiation bands quite effectively (which is why it has been suggested that life as we know it could not exist on the other side of the dust clouds, too much radiation from the Core).

My huge assumptions are based on a plethora of science info, a veritable mish-mash of data, so I am making Assumptive Statements instead of Absolute Statements - just thought I'd add that here.

What we've been able to glimpse through 'rifts' in the dust clouds seems to indicate a region rich in star formation and, logically, stellar death throes. But the absolute best stuff from the Core is based on observation using telescopes that do not use visible light wavelengths to gather information. Thus what high energy radiation manages to get through the dust clouds (call it a percentage variable, maybe even similar to how our atmosphere blocks a percentage of harmful radiation) gives us a much better look than visible light. All major 'sightings' within the Core region have been made with IR, Radio, X-Ray and other alternate forms of telescope.

A visible light view of the Core would require someting that could see visible light where none is able to pass through. Light bending and refraction techniques probably couldn't deal with the sheer scope of the area involved. We could probably cook up a 'virtual' image from all the other data that is available and it would probably be pretty close to the real thing, though.

Or we could send an extremely fast, extremely powerful telescope probe straight 'up' relative to the galactic plane (aim at due Galactic North) and point it at the Core. Eventually it's angle above the Galactic Plane would give it an unimpeded view, assuming the dust clouds are a smoke ring and not a bubble.

Or, as always, I could have missed some recent development. And the Supermassive Black Holes Documentary deals more with black holes found in other galaxies - no 'visible light' images of our own Core presented as far as I could tell.

Also,in one issue of New Scientist astronomers confirmed that they found the way how to penetrate the dense galactic core,I'll post you a link from New Scientist,soon-also,down below is the picture of just how close they near our galaxy's central black hole.

Energy
Apr 15th, 2006, 3:17 PM
No,really.it's radiation that is just outside the black hole,it's very close and it's about to fall into the black hole.

That's what astronomers are going to see in the next 10-20 years.

Protostar
Apr 15th, 2006, 10:16 PM
Interestingly enough, it's ten million miles wide, so is the hydro-thermal megaplume here on earth. Coincidence? That "mother in the middle" is the scariest of the two.

Energy
Apr 16th, 2006, 5:17 AM
Interestingly enough, it's ten million miles wide, so is the hydro-thermal megaplume here on earth. Coincidence? That "mother in the middle" is the scariest of the two.

What did you mean by that?

Cartesiantheater
Apr 20th, 2006, 7:22 PM
I don't understand this. On one hand they say no light can escape a black hole but radiation can?

How can radiation escape a black hole if light can't? Or does radiation move faster than light?

This doesn't make sense to me.
It's kind of a quantum physics thing. I don't quite yet understand it completely, but here's something that might help.

"A more precise, but still much simplified view of the process is that vacuum fluctuations cause a particle-antiparticle pair to appear close to the event horizon of a black hole. One of the pair falls into the black hole whilst the other escapes. In order to fill the energy 'hole' left by the pair's spontaneous creation, energy tunnels out of the black hole and across the event horizon. By this process the black hole loses mass, and to an outside observer it would appear that the black hole has just emitted a particle."

Energy
Apr 21st, 2006, 9:20 AM
It's kind of a quantum physics thing. I don't quite yet understand it completely, but here's something that might help.

"A more precise, but still much simplified view of the process is that vacuum fluctuations cause a particle-antiparticle pair to appear close to the event horizon of a black hole. One of the pair falls into the black hole whilst the other escapes. In order to fill the energy 'hole' left by the pair's spontaneous creation, energy tunnels out of the black hole and across the event horizon. By this process the black hole loses mass, and to an outside observer it would appear that the black hole has just emitted a particle."

Yes,understand now,I only didn't know what did he mean.So,who knows,maybe it will even bepossible to check if Hawking's radiation is real,or just another theory...
However,astronomers said that this would 100% that black hole,at least in the centre of Milky Way galaxy truly exists-they say it's the Holy Grail of astronomy!

And they will test if space-time is truly bended around the black hole-very interesting...

Scrapyard Ape
Apr 22nd, 2006, 12:54 AM
Interestingly enough, it's ten million miles wide, so is the hydro-thermal megaplume here on earth. Coincidence? That "mother in the middle" is the scariest of the two.
Please elaborate... what is this "hydro-thermal megaplume" of which you speak?

Energy
Apr 22nd, 2006, 2:55 PM
well, I'd rather have a supermassive black hole at the center of the galaxy than an unstable mass of supergiant stars that could erupt in a chain reaction of supernovae. too bad there's those massive interstellar dust couds in the way, I bet the real-light view would be fantastic.

Well,actually an astro-physicist named Eric Agol(I think that's his name) has already said this can be and has been compensated by even shorter wavelengths.

I just found out his e-mail,I'll try to ask him about the real-light view,and some other questions.