Does anyone know when Lucifer rebelled?

[TheWorldJoker]

I was discussing with my friend about how it is never mentioned that the snake in the Garden of Eden is actually Satan, and the only other snake reference is in Revelations (The two snakes are totally unrelated). So tell me, when did Satan actually fall? If it was before the creation of man, then it would be all right to assume it is Satan, but if he rebelled afterwards, we have a slight problem...

(I ask that you try to avoid things such as "Well, after creation but before tempting Eve", because, as I have said, it is never said that the snake is Satan. The two being "tempters" does not mean the snake is Satan.)

[liberdave]

In a lot of traditions, the "tempter serpent" in the Garden is actually Lucifer, the bringer of (en)light(enment). In the Garden, Lucifer brought knowledge to man, thus making humans human. In the old testaments, satan wears many different hats. He is sometimes god's tempter, god's prosecutor, and god's scapegoat. Latter on in the new testaments we see him take a little more traditional role.

[wyltk75]

I beleive that Satan fell pre-creation, and was cast out. Now as to wether or not the serpant is Satan, I'm not sure. I think that perhaps the serpant is only symbolic. Satan may have made a personal appearance, and only he was described as a serpant. He may have only tempted Eve like we are tempted, not by words, but by other means.

Either way, I think it's a Moo point (Hey, who cares what a cow thinks?).

[jeffweeder]

in revelation it refers to satan as that ancient serpent. some other names are , abaddon,apollyon,beelzebub,belial,devil,dragon,fat her of lies,god of this world,prince of the power of the air,liar, etc. looks like he fell before time.

[Jerushee]

When you give the entirety of your love, and all that you are to One, you expect and desire above all the reciprocation from that One in return.

When that reciprocation ends, love begins to change, believing that he solely deserved the love and the highest place in His heart, his pride began to burn deeply.

For in the beginning there was only Lucifer and He, but after there was created the many host, how ever in the eyes of Lucifer they were insignificant and thus did not pose a threat in his eyes to the place between he and Him.

However when God turned his face to His greatest joy, humanity, Lucifer felt he had been replaced, but Lucifer continued to give all that he was and all his love and being to Him, how ever in the eyes of Lucifer God was not doing so.

From pride, led to envy, and from envy led to wrath.

The war waged was one so he could defeat all others, to show to God how much he loved Him, to the infinite extent of how much he would stand and use the very embodiment of infinite and will that he was to demonstrate that he was most deserving of His friendship and Love above all.

[Freddy]

From Revelation:12: 7-9
"Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world – he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."

Logically, it has to be after the Earth formed and while its humans could be deceived if you believe in any of this nonsense.

[Mystery]

Lucifer was an angel. In fact like God's right hand angel so to speak. Angels had free will too. Lucifer was beautiful beyond anything we know and talented. He grew arrogant and rebelled against God. There is more to it then just rebellion, but in the end he was cast from heaven along with angels who chose to serve Lucifer. So the story goes.

[iulian28ti]

Lucifer rebelled because God was and always will be a dictator.
He took all the power in his own hands.
He used it and abused it.
He burns you in hell if you don't "believe".

If you wanna know the truth.... Lucifer is what God will never be. LIGHT !
Lucis Feris - Light Bringer

It is the opposing force to the narrow path of God that appeared when people decided to worship a few laws and pray all day.

[Freddy]

Again folks it is Satan. Lucifer is from St. Jerome's mistranslation during the late 4th and early 5th centuries ACE.

[Traveler]

Lucifer rebelled because God was and always will be a dictator.
He took all the power in his own hands.
He used it and abused it.
He burns you in hell if you don't "believe".

If you wanna know the truth.... Lucifer is what God will never be. LIGHT !
Lucis Feris - Light Bringer

It is the opposing force to the narrow path of God that appeared when people decided to worship a few laws and pray all day.

What you have said there is pure B/S

The story of what happened is in the scriptures.

Lucifer did a lot of trading in precious stones. He was the inventer of the financial system you could say. Anyway something went wrong and he was involved in an act of violence. As such he could not remain in is post as covering cherub and was cast down to earth and his body that he was so proud of destroyed.

However the argument that he put up was so convincing that he drew a third of the heavenly host over to his side. Us humans have only been caught up in this conflict through the cross fire and the fall was where satan used us as a tool against God.

[iulian28ti]

What you have said there is pure B/S
No. My statement follows a solid idea.


The story of what happened is in the scriptures.
Which ones ? The ones in the bible or those left out of the bible ?


Lucifer did a lot of trading in precious stones. He was the inventer of the financial system you could say. Anyway something went wrong and he was involved in an act of violence. As such he could not remain in is post as covering cherub and was cast down to earth and his body that he was so proud of destroyed.
God was wrong. He wanted all angels to follow his rules. It's the same thing dictators do.


However the argument that he put up was so convincing that he drew a third of the heavenly host over to his side. Us humans have only been caught up in this conflict through the cross fire and the fall was where satan used us as a tool against God.
Yeah, right. Let me guess, you were there ? :lol:


Again folks it is Satan. Lucifer is from St. Jerome's mistranslation during the late 4th and early 5th centuries ACE.
And now when the true nature of Lucifer has been revealed, suddenly it wasn't him ?

[Traveler]

God was wrong. He wanted all angels to follow his rules. It's the same thing dictators do.



Dictators do not have a legal claim of ownership over their subjects. God owns his own creation and has a right to do with it what he wills.

Get over it




And now when the true nature of Lucifer has been revealed, suddenly it wasn't him ?

So some dipshit posts an article on the web that says there was a mistranslation so you suddenly lay it down as an undisputed authority because you like what it says.

Why am I not impressed.

[Freddy]

Dictators do not have a legal claim of ownership over their subjects. God owns his own creation and has a right to do with it what he wills.

Get over it



So some dipshit posts an article on the web that says there was a mistranslation so you suddenly lay it down as an undisputed authority because you like what it says.

Why am I not impressed.
Prove me wrong then and offer some evidence.

[Traveler]

Again folks it is Satan. Lucifer is from St. Jerome's mistranslation during the late 4th and early 5th centuries ACE.

The Bible was not written in a single language. The Old testament was in Hebrew and the New in classical Greek. There is even the account of when Lucifer was cast down and renamed Satan.

To mistranslate in one language is possible. To mistranslate in two is stretching it. To discount the account of where the name switch occurred is just you trying to mislead.

[iulian28ti]

Dictators do not have a legal claim of ownership over their subjects. God owns his own creation and has a right to do with it what he wills.

So we are God's property, huh ? Then we're not free. And he remains a dictator.


So some dipshit posts an article on the web that says there was a mistranslation so you suddenly lay it down as an undisputed authority because you like what it says.

N.O.

[gordon]

So we are God's property, huh ? Then we're not free. And he remains a dictator.

Yeah! We are all in God's creation-image. God also created what is called "freewill", and certain humans used this freewill to bend and mold at their own will. God created humans, humans created the problems, and now will are seeing the affects of those problems and God will create the rubbishbin to cleanup the rubbish that certain humans created.

[lycanox]

The Bible was not written in a single language. The Old testament was in Hebrew and the New in classical Greek. There is even the account of when Lucifer was cast down and renamed Satan.

To mistranslate in one language is possible. To mistranslate in two is stretching it. To discount the account of where the name switch occurred is just you trying to mislead.

I am not sure about in whish laungages, but all those different translations you see today are based on some earlier translations of the bible. If those earlier translators made a mistake, it got passed on to all the later translations of that translation.

[TC]

It was about 1953, he got fired as a truck driver in Cincinnati, and moved west. Satan now runs a hamburger restaurant chain that uses a clown to draw customers...:bondage:

[Freddy]

The Bible was not written in a single language. The Old testament was in Hebrew and the New in classical Greek. There is even the account of when Lucifer was cast down and renamed Satan.

To mistranslate in one language is possible. To mistranslate in two is stretching it. To discount the account of where the name switch occurred is just you trying to mislead.
No kidding. The Bible was written in several languages. The OT was written in Hebrew and Koine Greek, not Classical Greek. The NT was written in Koine Greek.

Show me the scripture of Lucifer being cast down.

Lucifer is a Latin word, meaning "light bringer". Saint Jerome was translating the the Bible into Latin from Koine Greek. There is no Hebrew or Greek word "Lucifer". The Greek word is "Phosphoros" which means "light bringer".

[Traveler]

Show me the scripture of Lucifer being cast down.

".


Ezekiel 28


[12] Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
[14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
[16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
[17] Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
[18] Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
[19] All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Issiah 14

[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
[16] They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
[17] That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Luke 10

Jesus speaking

[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.


Direct translation for Satan is The Accuser or Devil. Satan is the english word given to this being.

[Blu-ray]

It was about 1953, he got fired as a truck driver in Cincinnati, and moved west. Satan now runs a hamburger restaurant chain that uses a clown to draw customers...:bondage:

That's right. I forgot about that! LOL. Good one SR.

[The Wicked Priest]

It was about 1953, he got fired as a truck driver in Cincinnati, and moved west. Satan now runs a hamburger restaurant chain that uses a clown to draw customers...:bondage:

I thought it was a taco joint... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-XuMvxi-vc)


But seriously, there are many mistranslations of the new testament, including St. Jerome's. It's not even really St. Jerome's fault. I've made this point before...the bible was written in Greek, and the problem with Greek is they use all capitol letters and no spaces. So when you write something like "GODISNOWHERE", when translated it could read "God is now here" or "God is nowhere", depending on the translator.

[Freddy]

Double post.

[Freddy]

Issiah 14

[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
[16] They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
[17] That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?


Direct translation for Satan is The Accuser or Devil. Satan is the english word given to this being.
Again Isiah 14: 12 Lucifer is incorrect. Satan comes from the Hebrew, Satan'el.
Can you find evidence other than the Catholic translation that Lucifer is correct?

[Traveler]

That is from the King James version which is Protestant.

At that Time the Catholics were still burning the Bibles in the common language so as to keep it out the hands of the masses.

[Freddy]

That is from the King James version which is Protestant.

At that Time the Catholics were still burning the Bibles in the common language so as to keep it out the hands of the masses.
Just a little history. The KJV was published in 1611 ACE while the Catholic versions including the Vulgate were published over 1,000 years earlier. The KJV was revised several times since the late 19th century. Here are the KJV and revised versions of Isaiah 14: 12.

King James Bible 1611
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

English Revised Version 1889
How art thou fallen from heaven, O day star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst lay low the nations!

American Standard Version 1901
How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!

Bible in Basic English 1949
How great is your fall from heaven, O shining one, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the earth, low among the dead bodies!

New International Version - 1984
"How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

http://bible.cc/isaiah/14-12.htm

[Traveler]

Now you know why I use the interlinear

[Assassin X]

I believe he rebelled after his wireless minutes ran out and God said "No more minutes! You talk to much damn it!". He couldn't take anymore and rebelled.

[whitestone]

I was discussing with my friend about how it is never mentioned that the snake in the Garden of Eden is actually Satan, and the only other snake reference is in Revelations (The two snakes are totally unrelated). So tell me, when did Satan actually fall? If it was before the creation of man, then it would be all right to assume it is Satan, but if he rebelled afterwards, we have a slight problem...

(I ask that you try to avoid things such as "Well, after creation but before tempting Eve", because, as I have said, it is never said that the snake is Satan. The two being "tempters" does not mean the snake is Satan.)Joker......does Satan have an equal in Hell ? Then, if you were Satan.....would you send another to derail humanity for the first time in history ?