Please have a look.

[New Creature]

Ok, here is true christian doctrine. Many, many of you, even non christians will have something to say about it as most of us have never heard such ideals!

i.e. hell is a myth!


1) God loves his creation so much to die for them, and with this love turn around and send them to hell for not believing is utter blaspemy. Most importantly send someone to hell for not being able to believe, yet searching. Like many of us here (nudges bnye) ot better yet not even having the remote chance of even hearing his name like many millions or perhaps billions of people past and present.

2) There is no free will. There is only Gods will and we are ALL doing his will.
Even Adam and Eve. God made everything and afterwards he said it is good (perfect). Perfect for what? Yes even satan was created perfect! Perfect for his plan! Adam and Eve had no real negative experiences to contrast good and bad, God wants us all to see and understand the difference. NO ONE is exluded from the heaven I am going to. Weather you like it or not I WILL see you there. (to think otherwise would be calling God a liar and there is no lie in him. Also to think that God made man with the potential to sin would mean he made an imperfect being. Once again we have put God into our own carnal bounderies (idoltary) and have taking away his soveringhty.

3) Everything that God says will come to pass, if you are a current believer then you have to agree. Likewise you cannot refute:

"For even as in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

*Basically saying if we are born into sin because of Adam, then we will die saved because of Christ!

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savour; Who WILL have all men to be saved, and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" (I Tim. 2:4). or

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Saviour of ALL MEN. of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe" (I Tim. 4:10). And many more, its all in the Book.

4) Lucifer was not an archangle whom was caste out of heaven and became satan. Satan has always been satan. Lucifer was a fluke in translating the bible.

5) The myth about burning for eternity:

Jesus never even said the word "hell" so how could He believe in it?

Mark 9:46: "...to be cast into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire, where their worm is not deceasing and the fire is not going out."

This is not "hell." This is "Gehenna." So why call it "hell?" The exact Greek word is Ge'enna [in Hebrew it is: RAVINE-of-HINNOM]. It is a ravine just below Jerusalem where the city waste was incinerated.

These are true Chrsitian foundations and not the modern day bs you see on tv and in the churches. I do expect believers and non to critisize but this is truth. And the truth has set me free.

I have been mixed up in some pretty weird religious crap for a long time, always running in circles and never finding my way. until I happened upon this site.

http://bible-truths.com/

This is what (Christ)ians should be teaching one another and to non-believers, not that terroist hell bs that only scare people away when it isnt even in the bible. We were taught that God would send preganant women and children to.. Oh but you never looked at it that way huh?

God is anitabortion most say and in the same breath would condem an non beliveing preganant women to hell for her unbelief? What of the unborn child? Think about it for a moment.

God Bless!!

[wyltk75]

If that were true, then, what exactly is the point of this life?

I agree that all those who never had the chance to hear God's word while living, or unborn children are not damned to hell. It would be an unjust God who would do such thing. To teach that is blaspemy. God will give those people a second chance.

If we are all automatically saved, no matter what, then what is even the point of having the Bible? What is the point of having missionaries or even proclaiming the word? WHat you propose makes life meaningless, and it removes any need to be Christlike. Pay attention to what Jesus teaches this man in Luke 18:

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is agood, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.



Jesus requires men to keep the commandments. Did he tell this man that it did not matter what he did, that he was going to go to heaven regardless? I don't think so.

What say ye to this?

[jeffweeder]

What are you talking about new creature id preach the same gospel as the early church if i were you. dont go watering this down, jesus died for us for a reason and it wasnt a painless death, Get your gospel from him if you want people to know the truth. wyltk75, very well put

[New Creature]

I would say visit that site, The host is far better then I to explain. He uses scripture to refute modern theology. Does an excelent job of it as well. There are alot of misconceptions surrounding modern theology. i.e tithing is unbiblical when used for modern reason, the televagalist doing the "praise-a-thon" is basically using an old catholic practice (or mans tradition) to squeeze your billfold. Its called indulgences. (the indulgences part is from me and not the view of that site)

This guy will hold your hand and walk you through most of them. You will be amazed.

btw, did you know Adam and Eve where sinful before they ate of the tree of good and evil? Think about this, most think that if Eve had not eaten the Fruit then we all might be in a paradise right now not having known sin. Right? Then we wouldnt have anything to contrast to see just how good we have it.. Or his Love for us.. Also Saying only if Eve wouldnt have eaten the fruit is like saying good made man imperfect. He knew she would take the fruit, He knew the serpant would beguile her so on and so fourth. It is a hard pill to swallow but I challenge you, being that you know scripture to read some of this guys teachings.

Then get back to me, I am curious as to your input. Just pick anything (One of his subjects) and see how he turns it into nothing more then mans interpitation rather then scripture. Sicne you made a reference to the rich man, I would personally suggest reading Lazuras and the rich man. Odd how that worked out..

Here is just a little bit :

Before reading my opening statement there will be many who will find fault with this paper. "What parable?" they will ask. Contrary to all the Scriptural proof that Luke 16:19-31 is indeed a classic example of a parable, there are many who deny this fact. The reason for so many desiring to take this parable literally is an attempt to add credence to the heretical teaching that God Almighty is going to torture the vast majority of all humanity who has ever lived by burning their flesh with real fire in a hellhole of insane pain for all eternity. But even if we take this parable literally, it still does not support such an absurd and evil teaching. When the truth is seen, the Rich man is overcome with great emotional torment by whatever "this flame" represents, but he is not physically being burned or barbecued in this flame..

That the Rich man is in a most distressful situation, there is no argument. But he is not "burning in eternal hell fire." That Lazarus is being comforted, there is also no argument, but neither is he presently basking in the sunshine of heaven. The two main figures in this parable represent whole nations of people who are either being shown the spiritual things of God or are being blinded to the spiritual things of God. The situation looks particularly grim and bleak for the Rich man, but certainly not hopeless as is taught in the pulpits of mainstream Christianity.

Unfortunately, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man has become a sort of theological passport to the annihilation of hundreds of plain and exact verses of Scripture. Next to the gross error in translating the Greek aion (a period of time with a beginning and an end) into an English eternity (no time at all, neither having a beginning nor an ending), I know of no greater misrepresentation of any section of Scripture than this parable. I will be using both the KJV and the Concordant Literal New Testament when quoting Scripture in this paper.

Can those who teach that Luke 16 is not a parable, prove their position? No, they can not. Can it then be proved by the Scriptures that this is a parable? Yes, it can. Quite easily, I might add.

PARABLE DEFINED

Let me give you a technical definition of a parable followed by a more simple definition: (1) "Parable: [Greek, para bole’= BESIDE CAST]--A statement ‘cast beside’ or parallel to its real spiritual significance, a figure of likeness in action." GREEK-ENGLISH KEYWORD CONCORDANCE p. 216. (2) "A short and simple tale based on familiar things meant to convey a much deeper and profound moral or spiritual truth," WEBSTER’S DICTIONARY. In Old English it was called a "near-story."

Jesus spoke in parables throughout His whole ministry. In Matthew chapter 13 we are given seven different parables. No parable is literal or historical. The second we make a parable literal, it ceases to be a parable. Jesus spoke ONLY in parables (not true life or historical stories) among the masses of people who followed Him wherever He went.

I am going to some length to demonstrate the absolute absurdity of teaching this parable of Lazarus or any other parable as a literal and historical event.

PARABLES MAY MENTION IDENTIFIABLE PERSONS

Is Luke 16:19-31 a "parable?" Many in orthodoxy say that it absolutely is not a parable because a person is mentioned by name and identified as a specific and particular person. The mention of an identifiable person is not, however, the test of a parable. Besides other parables do mention identifiable persons, but they are still parables:

Mark 4:15
Mentions Satan
Matt. 13:37
Mentions The Son of man
Matt. 13:39
Mentions The devil
Matt. 15:13
Mentions God the Father
II Sam. 12:7
Is said to be King David
Ezek. 23:1-4
Mentions Aholah and Aholibah
Luke 4:23
Jesus applies ‘Physician’ to HIMSELF

[New Creature]

What are you talking about new creature id preach the same gospel as the early church if i were you. dont go watering this down, jesus died for us for a reason and it wasnt a painless death, Get your gospel from him if you want people to know the truth. wyltk75, very well put


This is the very first gospel brother, The gospel you and i knew is the new gospel, Hellfire? Can a persons body burn for an eternity? Can the spiritual body burn for eternity in the same fire as the physical? Do you think Yeshua will fail? You must for he said he died for the sins of the WORLD. Not just a small percentile of people...

Which btw is what will happen according to this new gospel we all know so well. Trust me and give it a read. Dont fear reading it if you doctrine is the truth then you wont be swayed right?

[Sammy56]

Originally Posted by New Creature
1) God loves his creation so much to die for them, and with this love turn around and send them to hell for not believing is utter blaspemy.
I do agree with you on this point. One of the reasons I thought a big part of the Christian church was hypocritical was because if you didn't believe in the "all-loving" God, he would punish you eternally. To me that is like a contradiction.



Originally Posted by New Creature
2) There is no free will. There is only Gods will and we are ALL doing his will.
This I do no agree with. Having no free will means you might as well put us in a prison. If we cannot make our own decisions then we cannot learn anything from our own mistakes. Maybe God has a will, I do not, nor claim, to know. But I think it is possible to have free will and have a God who knows what will happen in the future at the same time. Maybe God will know what decision we would/will make but the actual decision is still for us to determine. I do not know if that would work or not.

[Mezurashi]

What are you talking about new creature id preach the same gospel as the early church if i were you. dont go watering this down, jesus died for us for a reason and it wasnt a painless death, Get your gospel from him if you want people to know the truth. wyltk75, very well put

what's wrong Jeffy? angry that someone else is better able to preach a more attractive version of the Scriptures?

What is wrong with a more Humanist view of religion and spirituality?

Or do have some real NEED to KNOW that people are being made to SUFFER so You can Feel Better about Yourself?

How can You say that New Creature is Wrong? What if New Creature has been Touched By God and Knows The New Path?

If so, then wouldn't that make you a Heretic? Wouldn't your lack of belief condemn you to your version of Hell? And if so, wouldn't it be better to believe as New Creature does?

[New Creature]

This I do no agree with. Having no free will means you might as well put us in a prison. If we cannot make our own decisions then we cannot learn anything from our own mistakes. Maybe God has a will, I do not, nor claim, to know. But I think it is possible to have free will and have a God who knows what will happen in the future at the same time. Maybe God will know what decision we would/will make but the actual decision is still for us to determine. I do not know if that would work or not.

What I have commited myself to learn and understand is that we have free choices. Yes, which is what you are speaking of. This would be my example,

God had a choice, to either make light or not.

His will however, wanted there to be light, so he commanded Let There Be Light, and there was light.

According to the gospels not even the apostles had free will. This is very easy to demonstrate.

From http://bible-truths.com/

This example of the disciples forsaking Jesus is so important to this study that we are going to stay with it a little longer. Can we believe that Jesus could have told His disciples the following:

"And Jesus said unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night, but then again, maybe not all of you will be offended, seeing that all of you have a free will to will against My pronouncement…."

Or maybe this to Peter:

"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice, but then again, maybe you won’t deny Me three times, seeing that you have a free will that does not need to deny Me even once. It doesn’t depend on what I say, or circumstances brought about by My Father, or what God declares, but rather on your own free will."

Sounds a little silly when we look at it logically doesn’t it? Yet this IS the contention of those who believe in "free will." Maybe Peter will, but then again maybe Peter won’t, NOT EVEN GOD KNOWS FOR SURE. Almost sounds like blasphemy, doesn’t it? It is blasphemy.

To argue that when God prophesies, states, and intends that someone do a particular thing, that the person is still at liberty because of his supposed free will, to not do what God has said, is absurdity on the highest level. Yet this IS what the theory of free will demands.

The fact that God has a foreknowledge of everything proves that free will is an impossibility, as true free will could alter the future and therefore God could not have an absolute and true knowledge of the future. It is idiocy to state that man has a free will that is not made or caused to do as it does, and yet state that God knows in advance the only possible choice that a person must make.

How can one believe that if God states that a person will make choice A, that he is nonetheless still at liberty to make choice B? Let me restate that: Can God say that you WILL make choice A, but you can make choice B?

Can God say that such and such, WILL happen but that it doesn’t need to happen? The disciples WILL forsake and deny Christ, but they have a free choice NOT to forsake and deny Him? God knows in advance that something WILL be a certain way, and yet it doesn’t have to be that way? Am I going too fast for anyone?

Not only does the theory of free will demand that man be able to think uncaused thoughts and performed uncaused tasks, but that he can in fact, do these uncaused things contrary to and in opposition to God’s preordained stated plan and purpose. He must be blind indeed, who cannot or will not see that such a haughty presumption lifts such an one’s ego to that of a veritable "god’ in his own heart and mind.

[New Creature]

Before conversion Peter thought he possessed free will:

"Peter answered and said unto Him, Though all men shall be offended because of you, YET WILL I NEVER BE OFFENDED" (Matt. 26:33).

Famous last words.

Jesus responded that Peter had no more freedom of the will to stick by such a statement than a donkey:

"Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, YOU SHALL DENY ME thrice" (Ver. 34).

Peter again responds from the pinnacle of his presumed free will and CORRECTS Jesus to His face:

"Peter said unto Him, Though I should DIE WITH THEE, YET WILL I NOT DENY THEE. Likewise also said ALL THE DISCIPLES" (Ver. 35).

And the rest is history. When Peter was confronted the third time we read this:

"Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I KNOW NOT THE MAN. And immediately the cock crew… And he went out, and wept bitterly" (Matt. 26:74 & 75b). Free will? Where? Give it up.

What about all of the other disciples who also thought they possessed this power of free will and self-determinism?

"But all this was done, that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then ALL THE DISCIPLES FORSOOK HIM, AND FLED" (Matt. 26:56).

[Philosopher Foelhe]

If we are all automatically saved, no matter what, then what is even the point of having the Bible? What is the point of having missionaries or even proclaiming the word? WHat you propose makes life meaningless, and it removes any need to be Christlike.

... What, you mean the only reason you're nice to people is because if you aren't, you're afraid you'll burn in Hell? You've basically been blackmailed into your religion? That's really sad.

[New Creature]

... What, you mean the only reason you're nice to people is because if you aren't, you're afraid you'll burn in Hell? You've basically been blackmailed into your religion? That's really sad.

Although we havent seen eye to eye in the past I must say that this is right on point with the way "modern" theology is stirring the flock. The true doctrine of Christ is so far gone that now, if reintruduced, who will belive it? Who will except it?
I will for one. God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten son. Not God so loved the very few that will except him that he gave his only begotten son.

(Just for gp do you belive in the scriptures? wyltk, Jeff how about you brother?
Doesnt scripture say in revelations that every knee shall bow and confess that he is Chrsit and our savior? Doesnt scripture also say that anyone who will bow and confess that he is Christ WILL BE SAVED? It is Gods will that everyone, ever that lived confess that he is The Christ, and acknowledge what he did for Us, likewise that we would understand his love)

What kind of investment return is, some? No God WILL have 100 percent return on his investment. Christ will not fail.

[New Creature]

I would just like to add think about your postion (mine as well) where is the spirit of the pharasies? INCOMPASS all, dont count people out of the kingdom just beause you think they dont fit, or will not reform. That is Gods job and he is doing just fine with it.

Let me ask you one more question, If any of you had twin daughters. You told them to be in at 1030PM on a certian night and one was late while the other was on time (obedient). Would you send your late daughter to her room for a 2 days? Without food, water, a fan (Because it is extremely hot in her room) or even light?

Stop and think about that for a moment then continue...


If you said no, then you MUST think you are a better parent then GOD Almighty.
That was 2 days! And yet you can believe the fable that God will send his disobedient children to burn for eternity! No , not 2 days for ever.

[wyltk75]

"Doesn't scripture say in revelations that every knee shall bow and confess that he is Christ and our savior? "

Yes.

"Doesn't scripture also say that anyone who will bow and confess that he is Christ WILL BE SAVED? "

No. I believe that is misinterpretation of scripture.

"Let me ask you one more question, If any of you had twin daughters. You told them to be in at 1030PM on a certian night and one was late while the other was on time (obedient). Would you send your late daughter to her room for a 2 days? Without food, water, a fan (Because it is extremely hot in her room) or even light?

Stop and think about that for a moment then continue...


If you said no, then you MUST think you are a better parent then GOD Almighty.
That was 2 days! And yet you can believe the fable that God will send his disobedient children to burn for eternity! No , not 2 days for ever."

I think that far too many people have a black and white view of things. Many people belive that there is Hell and Heaven. In Hell, you burn for eternity. In Heaven, you are happy and praising God all day in the clouds with harps. Is there no in-between? I say that their is.

Jesus Taught in John 14:

1 LET not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

After the resurrection, there are many glories that we can attain, some are more glorious than the other. A just God would give us the punisment/reward I deserve!

Lets look at your analogy for a minute. Suppose you had twin daughters and one came home late and the other did not. Suppose you had said that you were going to reward them with say, ice cream if they were on time. Would you give both daughters ice cream? if you did, you would not be a good parent, and you would be a liar! You probably would give the ice cream to the daugter that was obedient. The other daugter would not receive the reward, but you would probably not lock her in a room with the heater on.

If God were to give us all the highest reward for being disobedient then he would be made a liar.

"... What, you mean the only reason you're nice to people is because if you aren't, you're afraid you'll burn in Hell? You've basically been blackmailed into your religion? That's really sad."

Nope, sorry. I don't think that Heaven and Hell are that cut and dry. I try to be Christlike because I know it is the right thing to do. Jesus was an example for us to follow, and I try to follow his example. The Lord, not the church will be my judge.

So, you don't think that you should help people at all or be Christlike in the least?

[New Creature]

No. I believe that is misinterpretation of scripture.

Very well, then it appears you are keen on misinterpretation. When Christ was on the cross, there was a man crucified next to him that asked the Lord to remember him when he (the Lord) enter his (the Lords) kingdom. Here is the mishandled verse : Luke 23:43 "Verily [truly], to you am I saying, TODAY with Me shall you be in paradise."


Here is the actual Verse Luke 23:43 : "Verily [truly], to you am I saying TODAY, [comma] with Me shall you be in paradise."

Do you see the difference? These are the little things that make a world of difference. Christ himself was not in "paradise" that same day so how could he be in Heaven with the thief that day?

I only brought this to light to prove that what we thought we knew, is nill when compared to truth. I also thought that Christ and the thief were relaxing in heaven after that day.

This unquenchable fire were the worm dieth not? Remember that? That was a ravine in Jerusalem for burning waste and garbage, hence the flame is unquencable and the worms didnt die. (they did die only it was a breeding ground for more worms)

Ya see, we have been taught lies.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

WHat you propose makes life meaningless, and it removes any need to be Christlike.
Why is it that believers think that life is meaningless without God or Christ? I know a lot of people who are atheist or agnostic and they have wonderful lives and are very happy, including myself. I don't believe in Christ at all, yet I generally behave myself ( outside of the AO forums ) and I try to be Christ-like whenever possible. You can still be a good person even when you don't believe in God. In fact, I know MANY people who are atheist or agnostic and they are more Christ-like than some Christians that I know! For example, the creator of this thread, New Creature, believes in Christ, and he recently behaved very UN-Christ-like and became heavily inebriated and posted his thoughts in mid-inebriation for all the world to see. I do not drink AT ALL. I have never been drunk IN MY LIFE. Your statement above implies that a person must believe in Christ in order to be Christ-like. Clearly, at least in this specific area of alcohol consumption, I have been more Christ-like than New Creature has...


What, you mean the only reason you're nice to people is because if you aren't, you're afraid you'll burn in Hell? You've basically been blackmailed into your religion? That's really sad.
Well said, as always, Foelhe...

[jeffweeder]

I thought that was really good bn, seriously .

What is it that motivates you to be christ like? It is not a trick qu or anything . It just sounds like you moderate your behavior to be christ like when ever possible, and the reason you dont drink, i imagined you to be a heavy drinker.( sorry my mistake )

[New Creature]

Why is it that believers think that life is meaningless without God or Christ? I know a lot of people who are atheist or agnostic and they have wonderful lives and are very happy, including myself. I don't believe in Christ at all, yet I generally behave myself ( outside of the AO forums ) and I try to be Christ-like whenever possible. You can still be a good person even when you don't believe in God. In fact, I know MANY people who are atheist or agnostic and they are more Christ-like than some Christians that I know! For example, the creator of this thread, New Creature, believes in Christ, and he recently behaved very UN-Christ-like and became heavily inebriated and posted his thoughts in mid-inebriation for all the world to see. I do not drink AT ALL. I have never been drunk IN MY LIFE. Your statement above implies that a person must believe in Christ in order to be Christ-like. Clearly, at least in this specific area of alcohol consumption, I have been more Christ-like than New Creature has...

I never said I was perfect, I have never meet a perfect person to tell ya the truth. Drinking isn't a sin btw, drinking unto drunkenness is, which yes, I do. I also have a body full of tattoos and cuss (trying to clean it up) so you might have my licked in the "christ-like" dept. Never the less our journeys differ in many respects.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

I do not drink AT ALL. I have never been drunk IN MY LIFE. Your statement above implies that a person must believe in Christ in order to be Christ-like. Clearly, at least in this specific area of alcohol consumption, I have been more Christ-like

:rolling:

Dude, I have a great deal of respect for you, and I agree with much of your post. But before you claim abstinence from alcohol makes one Christ-like, remember that Jesus reputedly turned water into wine.

I'm sorry. That just struck me as really damn funny.

[New Creature]

So, you don't think that you should help people at all or be Christlike in the least?

Where did I say this? You read into my post something that wasn't there.
Christ came to earth to Die for us and we are to spread his Good news or Gospel. He will change our hearts when HE is ready. We have no say so or cannot go against Gods will. What will happen if we try and wiggle our way into Gods plan? He makes us fools.

This is why you see so many "ordained" ministers preaching hellfire and damnation for the majority of the worlds population past and present. This is why you see charismatic evengalist doing 24 hour praise-a-thons preaching if you don't give your money you wont be blessed! Why did he pick Judas as an apostle knowing full well he would betray him? So that the scriptures would be fulfilled. Did you even find time to look at this site? The truth will set you free. But there are those whom wont take the truth and WANT to believe a lie....

[wyltk75]

"You can still be a good person even when you don't believe in God. In fact, I know MANY people who are atheist or agnostic and they are more Christ-like than some Christians that I know!"

This is true for me as well. I have met plenty. Just because I have met atheists who were great people, that still doesn't mean that I shouldn't try to follow God the best that I can.

"Did you even find time to look at this site? The truth will set you free. But there are those whom wont take the truth and WANT to believe a lie...."

To tell you the truth, I went to the site to check it out, but ended up on a site that was linked to it. I ended up on Mike Vinson's site. It turns out that I used to spend a lot of time with his kids growing up. His daughter was one of my best friends. Small world huh?

Anyway.
What is the meaning of life?
Why are we here?
What difference does it make what we do or think?

I guess none of that matters in the least bit because God controls our destiny. It doesn't matter in the least bit because nothing I can do will change where I will end up. I am going to heaven. I am going to be saved.

Why even bother reading the Bible or learning what it teaches since none of it matters anyway?

Why is the Bible not a pamplet that says "God controls your destiny, don't bother."?

That theory doesn't add up. Why would God bother calling Prophets for thousands of years and have them teach all that useless doctrine and why would Jesus come down and heal the sick and teach all the parables if none of it matters anyway?

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

What is it that motivates you to be christ like?
Good question. Basically, I've realized during my life that, if you treat other people with respect, they will respect you in return. Another motivation is the realization that this world is FULL of selfish assholes who have NO consideration for anyone around them. This pisses me off, so I try not to be like them whenever possible in the hopes of doing my small part to make the world a better place to live in. Another reason for trying to be Christ-like is the fact that I am an optometrist. I'm not trying to sound arrogant or better than anybody else here, but we were told in optometry school that we are looked upon by the public as pillars of the community. And as such we must behave morally and ethically in order to live up to this standard and provide a good example for people to look up to. And then there's the obvious desire to be friendly and respectful to the people that I see every day such as my wife, my family, my friends and my co-workers. Again, if I give these people my respect, then they will respect me in return and everyone is happy. I think that a better question for you to ask would by "Why would I NOT want to be Christ-like?" And the answer should be obvious. If I act like an asshole, then people will treat me like an asshole in return and my life would be miserable. I know what you're thinking: I'm acting like an asshole to you and to others on these forums. Generally, for the most part, the AO forums are the only place where I allow myself to be an asshole to other people. In real life, I'm a different person. I've simply discovered that some people on the internet have to be treated harshly in order for them to understand the point that you are trying to get across to them. Not only that, but it's a LOAD of fun being an asshole on a forum...


and the reason you dont drink, i imagined you to be a heavy drinker.( sorry my mistake )
LOL! No problem! If I were a heavy drinker, then my posts would be incoherent and full of grammatical and spelling errors just like the post that New Creature typed when he was plastered a couple of weeks ago. Just for the record, I would estimate that the TOTAL amount of alcohol that I've consumed during my ENTIRE LIFE ( I'm going to be 37 years old next month - damn, a couple of more years and I'm into bifocals ) adds up to less than a 24 case of beer. First of all, I never developed the taste for alcohol. I actually physically tremble when I take one sip of just about any alcohol. In fact, I actually HATE the taste of alcohol and I hate how it burns my throat and stomach on the way down. The most alcohol that I've ever had at one time was a small glass of some fruity alcoholic drink at a wedding. There have also been other times where I would have one bottle of hard lemonade or a wine cooler in a social situation. I quickly learned to refrain even from drinking these small amounts of alcohol because I almost ALWAYS get a SEVERE migraine headache the day following the alcohol consumption ( I get migraines about once a week anyway, even when not drinking alcohol ). So that's basically why I don't drink. I've never been drunk in my entire life but I've always wondered what it would be like. Oh well, finding out is not worth having a splitting migraine for 12 hours. So I guess that I'll never know...


I never said I was perfect, I have never meet a perfect person to tell ya the truth. Drinking isn't a sin btw, drinking unto drunkenness is, which yes, I do. I also have a body full of tattoos and cuss (trying to clean it up) so you might have my licked in the "christ-like" dept.
My apologies, NC. My intent was not to criticize you in any way and I, in no way, am implying that I'm a better person than you. I simply used you as an example in the specific area of alcohol consumption to show that one does not need to believe in Christ in order to be Christ-like. I feel bad that I used your moment of weakness as an example. Everybody has moments like that. Again, please accept my apologies, NC...


Dude, I have a great deal of respect for you, and I agree with much of your post. But before you claim abstinence from alcohol makes one Christ-like, remember that Jesus reputedly turned water into wine. I'm sorry. That just struck me as really damn funny.
HAHAHAHA!!!! Aaahhh, leave it to Foelhe to see things that way! Just for the record, I can turn wine into water you know...


This is true for me as well. I have met plenty. Just because I have met atheists who were great people, that still doesn't mean that I shouldn't try to follow God the best that I can.
In no way am I implying that you shouldn't. It's your life and you should do what you want. I just simply wanted to point out that people can behave Christ-like even when they are not religious...

[New Creature]

I humbly except and wish you nothing but the best brother.

wytlk, a question then I'll answer. Christ said to "love your enemies" remember when the war started? We had pow's right, and a few civilians too. Now how many of us "whom believe in prayer" prayed for the civilians and pows? (many hands raise i can see) Ok, great. Now how many prayed for their captures? (crickets)
I didn't either. Is that loving your enemies? Nope. How many wished their captures to hell? (I raised both hands) You see, I would imagine theres very, very few people whom prayed for the hostage takers. Lets just say that the only people going to heaven to be with the Lord are the people that actually love their enemies as Christ commanded. Or if Christ returned during this ordeal. How many would sit in eternal hellfire because of this? (If such a place were to actually exist)

You bet, heaven would be almost barren. We humans cant "love our enemies" without help from God.

Now you asked what is the point of living? It is simple, Even though our destinies are laid out before us, God doesn't MAKE us believe. I have witnessed many miracles in my own life. Many of which is escaping death and prison. (Not actually escaping prison so don't call the feds)

My point wasn't to imply we got free "sin" tickets. No, that isn't the way. When we know and understand the truth and allow Christ to be master of our lives, then we wont have to worry about sin. WE ARE GOING TO SIN. We were made spiritually weak on purpose. But, there is one, only one whom overcame.

[Sage]

The REAL NAME of the REAL MESSIAH was never jc.
The REAL MESSIAH sent by Father YAHWEH has a Hebrew Name.
If you use or call on ANY OTHER NAME you can NOT BE SAVED ACTS 4:12!
Believe your Scriptures not your lying preacher boys.
Here is a great place to start.


http://www.yahweh.com/bookofyahweh.htm

If you pray to God then you are amoung the ones written about in Rev.12:9.

Sage

[New Creature]

The REAL NAME of the REAL MESSIAH was never jc.
The REAL MESSIAH sent by Father YAHWEH has a Hebrew Name.
If you use or call on ANY OTHER NAME you can NOT BE SAVED ACTS 4:12!
Believe your Scriptures not your lying preacher boys.
Here is a great place to start.


http://www.yahweh.com/bookofyahweh.htm

If you pray to God then you are amoung the ones written about in Rev.12:9.

Sage

A good site, I've had it in my favorites for a while now.

So, are you saying God will exclude certain people from the Kingdom of Heaven due to symantecs? (to suffer in the fabled eternal fire)Ya know God doesnt come out God in every Language. And if you are implying something else just say it. Your are right though Jesus Christ is not his name, it is his title. You are confining God to our rules/laws of speech and understanding. You must believe God is bigger then all this. Nothing our minds can conjure up can represent what God is or does or WILL do.

No, I am not trying to teach you. Just express my views. It was a very long and hard road to travel to get where I am.

Rev 12:9 And2532 the3588 great3173 dragon1404 was cast out,906 that old744 serpent,3789 called2564 the Devil,1228 and2532 Satan,4567 which deceiveth4105 the3588 whole3650 world:3625 he was cast out906 into1519 the3588 earth,1093 and2532 his848 angels32 were cast out906 with3326 him.846

What do you mean? If we pray to God the devil has decieved us?

[wyltk75]

"My point wasn't to imply we got free "sin" tickets. No, that isn't the way. When we know and understand the truth and allow Christ to be master of our lives, then we wont have to worry about sin. WE ARE GOING TO SIN. We were made spiritually weak on purpose. But, there is one, only one whom overcame."

If we don't have free will, then we don't choose to sin. We are compelled to sin. Without free will, then we cannot "allow Christ to be master of our lives", we will have no choice.

Saying that we are lacking a free will, does imply that we get a free "sin" ticket.

Yes we are spiritually weak, yes there is only one who overcame. We must accept the one, humble ourselves and repent of our sins.

Perhaps I don't understand a word you are saying though.

Do you beleive that everyone is going to Heaven, regardless of what they do?

Here are some examples: Jeffry Dahmer, Serial Killer. Hitler, Murderer of Millions. Rosy O'donnell, crappy talk show host. The list can go on and on. Is Hitler going to Heaven, to the same place that Ghandi or Mother Theresa is going after this life?

[New Creature]

Here are some examples: Jeffry Dahmer, Serial Killer. Hitler, Murderer of Millions. Rosy O'donnell, crappy talk show host. The list can go on and on. Is Hitler going to Heaven, to the same place that Ghandi or Mother Theresa is going after this life?


When Christ was on the cross, He asked his father to forgive those for they know not what they do. As humans, some/most of us don't have the capacity to "forgive" a Jeffrey Dahlmer, or Hitler. However with the help of God we shall forgive.

Do you think If Dahlmer, with all his heart confessed and asked for forgiveness to God the Father in and believed in the name of Christ (which is Yeshua) he would not be allowed into heaven? (this is hypothetical of corse). don't you believe the scriptures? Or are you hung up on what you learn in church?

I don't attend church btw, so here is another angle you can approach for me not knowing what I am talking about.

Do I think everyone is going to heaven? Well what does the scripture say? You tell me...

I am led to believe that man, specifically religious man/woman would rather that not everyone gets to go. We want to be special, we want to be number one. I got news for you, In the biblical Heaven and in my ideal of heaven yes. Everyone is going. (with minor exceptions) The unpardonable sin and so on. I don't have it all figured out but this is by far the best doctrine I have come across. Not to mention it is biblically correct.

From: http://bible-truths.com/

"Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father" (Phil. 2:9-11).

Does God love them less than us? No. ("For thus God LOVES the world ..." Jn. 3:16).

Does God only love sinners after they repent and believe in Christ as their Savior? No. ("... While we are STILL sinners, Christ died for our sakes." (Rom. 5:8).

Is God just "partial" toward saving some while condemning the rest? No. ("For there is no partiality with God ..." Rom. 2:11).


*Also keep in mind that there is no weight to sin. A sin is a sin is a sin is a sin. Murder is equal to lieing in Gods eyes. Which is what I think the priciple when Christ said to hate your brother is just like murdering him. (I may not be right in my last statement)

[wyltk75]

"Do you think If Dahlmer, with all his heart confessed and asked for forgiveness to God the Father in and believed in the name of Christ (which is Yeshua) he would not be allowed into heaven? (this is hypothetical of corse). don't you believe the scriptures? Or are you hung up on what you learn in church?"

As I have said earlier, I don't beleive that all you have to do is "accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior" and you get a free ride into heaven. Yes, if someone truly repents of their sins, including Hitler etc., then they can be forgiven of them. Of that there is no doubt. The Bible clearly teaches that.

I'm not sure that I am making myself clear on the matter. So let me ask the question again.

Do you beleive that everyone will go to Heaven, even if they don't repent of their sins? Will they return to God's presence even if they die in the process of cursing God?

[New Creature]

Do you beleive that everyone will go to Heaven, even if they don't repent of their sins? Will they return to God's presence even if they die in the process of cursing God?

First let me start by submitting this passage : Luke (23:38-43).

“And there was also a superscription over him, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. And one of the malefactors that were hanged railed on him, saying, Art not thou the Christ? Save thyself and us. But the other answered, and rebuking him said, Dost thou not even fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom. And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.” (notice the comma wrongfully placed)

Salvation is granted by GRACE . Not by anything you or I or anyone could DO. You cannot earn your way into heaven. Just as we are botn into sin via Adam and Eve falling. we didnt have a choice, we didnt ask to be here. Likewise we are born into salvation via Christ. We cannot weasle our way in. Now, yes we have to believe it and except it, but when is what you are concerned with. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (I Cor. 15:22).
It is apparent and a valueable lesson that all this man did was to believe in Christ!

With the risk of making you upset, do you believe the scripture? Or do you believe what someone has told you?

This is not what I said. I wrote that everyone WILL confess that he is Lord, He is Savior!

It is in the same bible that read or learn from. Read it and belive it. To say this cant happen is like saying God cant do that.

"Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father" (Phil. 2:9-11).

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Strong's #1670 - helkuo - drag) ALL MEN unto me" (John 12:32).



Look at what scriptures say about "freewill"
"Having PREDESTINATED US ... according to the good pleasure of HIS will ... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of Him who worketh ALL THINGS after the COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL:" (Eph. 1:5 and 11).

Is there any question to what this is implying? You cant say you believe the bible but only parts of it. The parts you like.

[wyltk75]

“And there was also a superscription over him, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. And one of the malefactors that were hanged railed on him, saying, Art not thou the Christ? Save thyself and us. But the other answered, and rebuking him said, Dost thou not even fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom. And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.” (notice the comma wrongfully placed) "

First off, Jesus did not go to Heaven that day. Three days after this statement, here is what he told Mary after appearing to her:

John 20: 17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Did Jesus lie on the cross? Here it is three days later and Jesus "had not yet ascended" to his father. Jesus had not returned to heaven! Where he went was Paradise. Paradise is where we wait for the judgement.

Where was Christ for the three days while before he was resurrected? Not in Heaven. Peter talks about where Christ was (though it may not seem clear). Christ was in spirit prison:

1 Pet 3
18 For Christ also hath once asuffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the dSpirit:

19 By which also he went and apreached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by fwater.

Christ died for our sins, then went up into spirit prison and preached to the spirits in prison who were "sometime disobedient". He most surely visited spirit paradise, where the thief on the cross was. We do not have the oppurtunity to return back to Heaven until after judgement day.

Look at this scripture in Revelations 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

7 And when the athousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

There will be the first ressurection at the beginning of the Melinnium, and the rest of the people will be judged at the end of the Melinnium.

The thief on the cross was not promised heaven, but he was promised paradise.

1.)Jesus promised that he would see him in paradise.
2.)Jesus visited prison (and presumably paradise), but had not ascended to heaven.
3.)The thief was not jugded (as we will not be judged until the last days) therefore could not have been in Heaven.


Finally, I'm not sure you answered my original question. If you did answer it, it was kind of cryptic.

Do you beleive that we have to repent of our sins or not?

You keep saying "Every knee shall bow and every tounge shall confess." I agree with that. Every knee shall bow and every tounge shall confess that Jesus is Lord. This does not mean they will be saved.

James Chapter 2 says:

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

If, by your reconing, everyone that beleives in God will be saved, so will "the devils". This includes Satan. Do you not think that Satan beleives in God? Furthermore James continues:

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

The scripture quoted earlier from revelations says:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This does not make faith null. Faith is the key element to the equasion, but true faith will lead one to works. Therefore "faith without works is dead".

[New Creature]

There is too much going on in that post so I'll take it slow.

*First, it is imperative that you believe Christ died for our sins. He totaly died. Not just the flesh. Not the carnal. he DIED. He was in the grave for 3 days, sheol. (and if Christ was there so shall we be when we die) Sheol simple means the unseen. And believe it or not this is where we get our translation of hell from. Hell or hades.

Second, this is what I said that is so hard for you to understand. We do not gain salvation (through works or donations or anything of ourselves) it is a free gift!
Yeshua said that if anyone confess with his mouth that he is lord and believe in his heart he WILL BE SAVED. Ok so then lets see just who will Confess with their mouth and believe in their heart he is Lord and Savior :

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw (Strong's #1670 - helkuo - drag) ALL MEN unto me" (John 12:32).

"For God so loved THE WORLD [while we were yet in our sins - I Cor. 15:17] that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life ... that THE WORLD through Him might be saved" (John 3:16 & 17).

Well, there it is. Understand it or not, I cant be more clear.

You asked if Satan believes in God? Of course he does. Satan had to have a creator too. (or do you not believe God created Satan)

I don't intend to turn this into a scriptural argument. I believed like you do once. The point about Christ on the cross with the thieves is that the bible through its many translations has lost some meaning. My example was the thief on the cross asked the lord to not forget him and the Lord said Truly I am telling you today, that you will be with me in paradise.

Now modern churches and sunday schools will teach that Christ was in paradise with the thief on that day. What I think you wrote is that Christ was both (still on the cross) and (in paradise with the thief) at the same time. Be it flesh and spirit this is not how it played out.

It is appointed once for man to die and then the judgement. Just like that. Are you telling me saved people go to a "pre-heaven" before judgement then after the finally get to go into the pearly gates? And unsaved people go to a "pre-unscriptural eternal torment"?

To be dead is to be asleep,

Taken from : http://bible-truths.com/

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers..." (Deut. 31:16).

"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou [David] shalt sleep with thy fathers. (II Sam. 7:12).

"David slept with his fathers..." (I Ki. 2:10).

"Solomon slept with his fathers..." I Ki. 11:43).

Job said, "...for now shall I sleep in the dust..." (Job 7:21).

Get this one: David said

"...lest I sleep the sleep of DEATH..." (Psa. 13:3).

"For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep [are dead]" (ICor.. 11:30).

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep ... the dead shall be raised..." ( I Cor. 15:51-52).

"...the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep" (I Thes. 4:14).

"...My daughter is even now dead ... the maid is not dead, but sleepeth." (Mat. 9:18 & 24).

"For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption." (Acts 13:36).

It is said even of our own Lord:

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruit of them that slept" (I Cor. 15:20)

*(remember earlier when I said you must believe Christ died, not just his body, he died) there it is in his own words. It is funny how I used to totaly ignore some scripture but reading though this site I understand that I was just spiritually blind. I still am in a lot of respects.

Do you think the beast of revelations is a person just waiting for his chance to gain control and take over the world? That isn't in scripture. PM me if you would like to talk about it. The beast in the bible is rather shocking news.

[New Creature]

The scripture quoted earlier from revelations says:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This does not make faith null. Faith is the key element to the equasion, but true faith will lead one to works. Therefore "faith without works is dead".

Also I am confused Judgement and salvation are to totally different things. Salvation comes from confessing and believing through faith (which btw isn't our "own" faith but a gift from God rather)

Then we are judged according to our works. Our works aren't judge to see whether or not we made the cut off for heaven or sheol.

[wyltk75]

Ok, now heres the truth. I have read a little bit from that site you keep pointing to, and have read what you have said. I have come to a couple of conclusions.

1) Your ideas and beleifs make little to no sense to me in the least bit.

2) I cannot conclusively decide if you beleive that we are all going to heaven no matter what or not.

Now, I am going to ask a simple question. I would appreciate it if you would give a simple answer, without the jumbled scriptural explaination that takes days to descramble.

ARE WE ALL GOING TO BE SAVED AT THE LAST DAY REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE DO OR THINK?

Lets make that the basis of our continued discussion on this subject (that is of course if you want to continue with this discourse). We will consider the answer to this question a ground rule.

[New Creature]

[QUOTE=wyltk75]ARE WE ALL GOING TO BE SAVED AT THE LAST DAY REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE DO OR THINK?[QUOTE]


It is Gods WILL that non should perish. God does not "hope" or "wish" something would come to pass. He speaks the "WORD" and the word obeys.

It is mans will that "some" should Perish. Therefore man has manipulated Gods word to ensure certian people dont see the kingdom of Heaven.

Think of this, God said that there will be no tears or sadness in heaven. How then do you think you can be happy in heaven knowing there is a multitude of people in eternal torment? Some of which are sure to be our loved ones?

There is no scripture here that I quoted from. My 8 year old daughter can tell me what this is saying. So I am sure you can too.

It will do me no good any longer as you are still spiritualy blind, AND THAT IS OK. When God see's fit he will allow the blind to see, the deaf to hear, and the lame to walk.

God bless, and no, I no longer wish to have this discourse.

* It is no wonder people run from christianity and dont look back. We drive them away in our unbeliefe and misunderstanding. We do nothing, of our own merit to be worthy of salvation. The sad thing is this is the true gospel and doesnt fit into what we have learned (modernized-religion)

[wyltk75]

So then the answer is YES?


If that is the case, then it doesn't matter if anyone runs from Christianity or not. It doesn't matter if you are a child molestor. It doesn't matter if you are a terrorist, blowing up women children and other innocents.

Be a mother raper, father raper, serial killer or anything else and you will be saved!

We don't need the bible. All we need to know is that God will save us at the last day and all is well. Why have the ten commandments or the sermon on the mount when it is not necissary. I guess Jesus was just wasting his breath.

No offence or anything. That's just how I see it. I don't beleive that God's commandments were in vain. Having a lack of free will was Satans plan, and we did not accept it when we were with the hosts of Heaven, why should I accept Satans plan now?

[New Creature]

You read his word. Did I make anything up?

Are you the Judge of rapist, and child molesters? Why wont we let God do his will instead of ours? (just to clarify I dont think it is Gods will for a person to rape another) God is judge.

Will it offend you if you have to share the Kingdom of heaven with a reformed rapist?

You are rank with sin, so am I. Perhaps not rapes, and molestings but SIN none the less. How could you put a severity on a single sin? When ANY sin or ALL sin will buy us a ticket to hellfire according to your gospel or "good news"?

Where is the mercy the father has instilled in you? Where is the compassion? When will you decide to love your enemies? (you cant pick and choose which comandments you wish to follow) i.e. the Rapist, the child molesters and so on.

Your doctrine is full of holes. Get back to the Original intent and meaning and you will find peace. I have.

If God wills that I be in heaven, and then wills that my mother be eternally BB'Qued how can I live in eternal happiness? How can I not shed a tear? Will God selectively erase our memories? If so then we have forgotten all we have learned..

[wyltk75]

I just think that all of your scriptural "proof" that God will save everyone at the last day ignores scores of other scriptures that states that we have to follow Gods will, from our own free will.

This is not to mean that I beleive that everyone who is X religion will burn in Hell. I don't beleive that in the least. I beleive that God will judge us at the last day individually. We will receive the eternity we deserve.

Yes, there will be reformed rapists etc. in the highest degree of Glory. There will be priests in the lowest. I have no problem with that. Jesus died for our sins, but we must accept that sacrifice through our own free will.

Let me level with you. I am LDS, or Mormon. We beleive there are three degrees of Glory in heaven. Figuratively speaking, the highest is described as the glory of the Sun, the middle of the moon and the lowest as the stars. There is also outer darkness (Hell). Outer darkness is where Satan and his hosts will be. Only those worst offenders will be sent there. The scriptures teach that those who deny the spirit will be there. I really don't know.

(1 Corinthians 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.)

Those who have died without hearing the word of God will have a chance to accept Christ in the afterlife. They will still have their own free will at that point. They can still accept or deny the Lord.

I agree that many organized religions would deny that the kid from China that lived 2 hundred years ago would be damned. My personal beliefs do not reflect that. Christ died for us all, we much choose whether or not we will accept that sacrifice, I don't beleive that God would force it on us.

[New Creature]

Those who have died without hearing the word of God will have a chance to accept Christ in the afterlife. They will still have their own free will at that point. They can still accept or deny the Lord.

Here our page's seem to overlap a bit. This is kind of the direction I was aiming. It is not when a person will convert and believe the truth but "if".

There are threads everywhere on this site and elsewhere claiming "Where is the all powerful now?"
"Reveal thyself!" So if this is what is need for a person to believe then they will have their opportunity. But, do you think once a person see's the Lord he then can deny him? I cannot deny the truck I drive to work everyday as it is evident. Some people need more, some less. Either way it is Gods will. If he chooses not to lose anyone, then who are we to say that isn't right? God says it in his word that his WILL is to not lose anyone. Then how can he lose anyone? Some of us obviously do not give him the Sovereignty he is due.

I started this thread in hopes to let people know I BELIEVE that its gonna be ok, don't worry its gonna be alright. God is in control and CANNOT FAIL. Not to argue or debate even. No offense but if you would like to have a biblical debate, simply start a thread.

[wyltk75]

It is good to try to instill hope. But telling peole that they have no choice in life and that they are being manipulated isn't exactly hope, is it? It sounds a lot like the book 1984 (or the Bush Administraton).

I think perhaps that far too many people have a dismal view about the afterlife. Some beleive that if you don't do X thing, it is all over. I disagree with that view.

One other thing. And this is some advice for the people writing that web site you keep referring to. If you are trying to make a point, come right out and say it. The discussions on that site are unbelievably boring and hard to follow. It's good to have depth of meaning etc. but not to the extent that it's convoluted and confusing.

It was nice to meet you.

[New Creature]

It was nice to meet you.

It was very nice to meet you as well.

[autryn2]

New Creature: There IS a Hell and it is eternal. Consider Matthew Chapter 25 where Jesus is telling His desciples about the judgement: (read the entire provided below... hell (eternal fire) is mentioned near the bottom)

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
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...or how about Jesus talking about those who go to Heaven and Hell in Matthew Chapter 7:

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
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...or how about the angel which spoke to John in Revelation Chapter 14:

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
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These scriptures pretty much refute your docterine.... I appreciate the fact that you are searching but what you are teaching to others (and are responsible for) is not correct.

[New Creature]

First it isn't my doctrine. It is our doctrine. Whether you accept it or not it is true doctrine. I can absolutley understand now why people are hesitant to listen too, or give Christianity a chance. Not to long ago I believe just what you do

You are wrong here when you said, "New Creature: There IS a Hell and it is eternal. Consider Matthew Chapter 25 where Jesus is telling His desciples about the judgement:"

I never said there wasn't a hell, I said there is a myth about hell, i.e. No one will burn for eternity. Do you really think God would do that? To children?

Dont quote the "age of accountablitly" because the same people who preach fire and brimestone also teach :: The Bible tells us that even if an infant or child has not committed personal sin, all people including infants and children are guilty before God because of inherited and imputed sin. Inherited sin is that which is passed on from our parents. In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, "I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." David recognized that even at conception, he was a sinner. The very sad fact that infants sometimes die demonstrates that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, since physical and spiritual death were the results of Adam's original sin.

Forgive me for such a long cut in paste. I have read everything you posted and fear not to ge the same respect.

If any of this rings true to you please visit http://bible-truths.com/
For a better insight and understanding.

A SCRIPTURAL EXPLANATION OF THE LAKE OF FIRE

We will now delve into some spiritual matters—"yea, the DEEP things of God."

How does the Church decide just what the lake of fire is, what happens there, why, to whom, and for how long? Remember back about thirty pages where I showed you that the Scriptures in Rev. 20 and 21 do not actually say what happens to a person who is thrown into the lake of fire? It does not say they are burned or tortured. It does not say if they are killed. It does not say how long they are in this fire (there is an indication as to how low the beast, false prophet, and Satan are in this lake of fire, however). So how then does the church decide that those who are thrown into this lake of fire are tortured, in their physical flesh, by real fire, for all eternity? A detractor recently e-mailed me and asked how I could say that a certain thing Jesus said was "spiritual?" He told me, "Ray, these things that Jesus spoke of are REAL!" Wow! As though "spiritual things" are NOT REAL?

Theologians say that "the lake of fire" is physical, material, and literal. They compare this phrase with similar phrases in Scripture thinking that they have proved that the lake of fire is literal. Here are a few examples that they believe proves that the "lake of fire" is physical, material, and literal:

"…cast into everlasting fire…cast into hell fire," (Matt. 18:8-9).

"…cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Matt. 9:45-46).

"…cast into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 13:42-43).

"Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels," (Matt. 25:41).

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:14-15) and "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death," (Rev. 21:8).

I will add one more, not because it mentions either hell or fire, but because it is often used to establish the length of punishment in hell. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment…" (Matt. 25:46).

There are other verses and parables that mention "burning" and "fire," but these are the most frequently and strongest verses used to establish the Christian doctrine of eternal torment by literal fire. The proof that these are all literal, however, is found in the carnal mind, and not in the Scriptures. Some of these verses regarding "fire" may sound like they can be taken literally, but that is not the test of whether something is literal or figurative—whether it sounds like it could be literal. Some of the parables of Jesus sound like they could be literal, but NONE OF THEM ARE LITERAL, they all have a higher spiritual truth than is ever conveyed in the literal example or story.

Well, what about it? Do all of these verses combined establish that the lake of fire is a literal fire that burns literal physical bodies as an eternal punishment for unbelieving sinners? No, they do not. They in fact prove something quite opposite from that of eternal torture in real fire. They have NOTHING to do with physical bodies! They have NOTHING to do with physical torture! And they have NOTHING to do with eternity! You have been lied to long enough: it is now time that you know the TRUTH. I am now going to rock some boats!

"THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING / MY WORDS ARE SPIRIT"

When Jesus Christ said in John 6:63:

"It is the SPIRIT that quickens [gives life]; the FLESH PROFITS NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life"

The Scripture then tells us in verse 66:

"From that time many of His disciples went back, and walked no more with Him."

Why did Christ’s words so offend His own disciples? Because they were carnal and unconverted, that’s why. They did not, could not, and would not understand "spiritual things." They could understand and believe physical, material, and literal things. They could not understand "spiritual" things, and therefore they walked with Christ NO MORE!

So what’s new? Has human nature changed over the past two thousand years? I think not. After reading this next section, many of you may decide that you too have had ENOUGH. You may feel that these things are getting just too "spiritual" for your liking. Maybe you too will doubt the existence of spiritual things, and that if you can’t have things in their natural, physical, material, carnal and literal way, then you will have none of it!

[New Creature]

Jesus Christ asked in Luke 18:8,

"Nevertheless when the Son of man comes, shall He find FAITH ON THE EARTH?"

Orthodoxy would answer, "Why YES, He will find lots of faith—no less than a BILLION or two, filled with the faith of God." Oh really? Does anyone believe that Jesus would have asked such a profound question if He already knew and believed that there would be no less than a BILLION or two believing Christians on the earth waiting to prove their faith to Him? Many professing Christians do not believe God; they do not believe Jesus Christ; and they do not believe the Scriptures! I didn’t say they don’t believe there is a God or that there is a Christ or that there is a book of Scripture; I said they don’t believe God or Christ—they don’t believe what They have said in the Scriptures.

Don’t think that I am always trying to be hard on the Christian Church; I am not. I am trying to get people to BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES, BELIEVE GOD, and BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST! I hear a lot of lip service, but I fear that all too many have a heart that is far from God. We claim to believe the Scriptures, but do we really? We may believe part of a Scripture, one word of a Scripture, someone’s interpretation of a Scripture, our own interpretation of a Scripture, but do we believe ALL THE SCRIPTURE? How am I to prove to someone that the lake of fire is not God’s eternal version of a terrorist’s torture chamber, if they do not believe in the credibility of Scriptures? If I give a Scripture and someone says, "Well, I don’t believe that! That’s YOUR interpretation," how are we to ever establish the truth of the Scriptures in such minds and attitudes?

There really is simplicity in the Scriptures. But who believes them? We SAY, we TALK, we AFFIRM, we SWEAR, we PRETEND, but do we really believe the Scriptures? "GOD IS LOVE" (I John 4:8). How many believe it? Do YOU believe it? Not if you also believe that God will torture the majority of mankind unmercifully in real fire for all eternity, you don’t. The two thoughts are incompatible and incongruous. One cannot hate one’s enemies while claiming to love them. One cannot torture someone while at the same time insisting that this is showing love. One cannot lie to his children while claiming to be truthful. Little children understand these concepts; why can’t adults?

Heb. 12:6-8, "For whom the Lord LOVES He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives. If ye endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for which son is he whom the father chastens not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye BASTARDS, and not sons."

There isn’t a theologian alive who can explain this Scripture if he also believes that God will torture most of humanity in a literal lake of fire for all eternity. God chastens EVERY son, but He does not torture him in literal fire for all eternity. If we endure chastening, then we know that God is dealing with us as SONS! But. . . .BUT, if any are "without chastisement" then they are "bastards, and NOT sons." Now then, does God LOVE all His sons whom He scourges and chastises? Yes, of course He does, He says He does. But here’s the sixty-four thousands dollar question: "Does He also LOVE the bastards, or does He HATE the bastards and enemies of the cross?" Don’t be too hasty to answer, as your answer has huge and eternal consequences. Well, some may say, "Love," while others may say, "Hate." Okay, let’s look at both:

If God "Loves" the bastards, then He will eventually HAVE TO CHASTEN THEM, because….He chastens "EVERY son whom He loves." And God then "receives" all that He chastens. No exceptions here. So God can’t burn any whom He "Loves" in a literal lake of fire for all eternity.

But if God "Hates" the bastards who are enemies of the cross…wait a minute…God can’t "HATE His enemies!" Jesus Christ said we are to, "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." A great part of becoming perfect is to LOVE ONE’S ENEMIES! Jesus said we are to, "LOVE YOU ENEMIES, BLESS them that curse you, DO GOOD to them that hate you…." No exceptions here regarding any enemies that we are allowed to hate. This is HOW ones becomes perfect like the Father. "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES!" (Matt. 5:48 & 45)! And so God can’t burn any of these enemies in a lake of fire for all eternity, either, and still be Our PERFECT Father Who LOVES HIS ENEMIES, just as we are to LOVE OUR ENEMIES!
Bastards are born bastards and did not create themselves or choose to be bastards…"!!!

Are you comfortable knowing your loved ones may spend eternity roasting in hell? Probably not and the reason is it is unbiblical. This stems from a branching "away" from true doctrine. Not to call out names for we are all Gods children, there is a group in particular that has alot to do with how we view scripture in these days.

[New Creature]

Here is the actual meaning of "Lake of fire"

*Please dont lose patients. Read the whole thing like you asked me and it will be worth it. The "Lake of fire" is something far different then what we have been taught. And it has been misinterpreted for "eternal" torment.

From : http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

The Lake of Fire
PART III

JUDGMENT BY FIRE MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD

GOD’S TWO AREAS AND ERAS OF JUDGMENT

Before God brings a final judgment on the entirety of the world, He must first perform another judgment on another group of people. This judgment is going on right now. The world is totally unaware of this judgment, although it has been going on for two thousand years. It is happening behind the scenes. Only a relative few are participating in this judgment by fire, and they are all volunteers!

We know for a fact that there is coming a WORLDWIDE judgment on mankind, for Scripture has stated such:

"Because He hath appointed A DAY, in the which He will JUDGE THE WORLD [Greek" inhabited earth] in righteousness ..." (Acts 17:31).

Most have at least heard of this judgment even if they have no solid understanding of what it is all about or its primary purpose. We will have a great deal to say about this judgment later. But first we will take a look at another judgment almost universally unknown in the world of Christendom. It is a judgment that involves believers, NOW!

Peter, who was given many keys to the kingdom, introduces this judgment to us:

"Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For [here’s the reason] the TIME IS COME that JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD ..." (I Pet. 4:16-17).

What do you know about this judgment on the house of God. Do you know anything specific? Well, don’t feel too badly, most people don’t. Apparently theologians and clergymen don’t know too much either, seeing that it is not a popular subject to teach. If they had even a superficial understanding of God’s judgments on the house of God, they wouldn’t interpret the great white throne and the lake of fire as some hideous act of divine eternal terrorism. These two judgments have much in common.


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Just what is this human life on earth for, anyway? -- Why are we here? -- What is our purpose? -- What is God’s purpose for the Christian?

As children we are taught that Christian people live; they die; their souls go to heaven. Bad people live; they die; their souls go to hell. Live, die, go to heaven or live, die, go to hell.

So I guess this earth is a giant "soul factory." But the truth is that Christian souls do not go to heaven at death, neither do wicked souls go to hell at death. Contrary to all Christian belief, the Bible reveals (as does elementary science), that dead people are DEAD. What a revelation! That’s right, boys and girls, living people are "ALIVE" and dead people are "DEAD." This is not rocket science!

If ALL the dead are either alive in hell or alive in heaven, who, pray tell, is God going to resurrect back to life from the dead when He returns to judge the world in righteousness? How can the dead be living in heaven or hell when they haven’t as yet been judged as to where they should be living in the first place?

THE BELIEVER’S JUDGMENT BY FIRE

Well, yes, it does appear that there is a judgment on the house of God, but certainly not a judgment by FIRE, is there? Doesn’t God judge non-believers with fire, but not believers? This only sounds strange to you if you have never been taught the Scriptures.

"Beloved, think it NOT STRANGE concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some STRANGE thing happened unto you" (I Pet. 4:12).

Peter makes it sound as though going through fiery trails is the norm rather than the exception. The New Testament is filled with the fiery trials of the Saints.

Now I hope that none will be offended at my next few statements, but if so, so be it. Unless God Almighty through the purging power of His FIERY SPIRIT, is BURNING OUT the lusts and passions and vanity and haughtiness and greed and self-righteousness and laziness and weakness and hypocrisy and wickedness and pride and materialism and cynicism and depravity and carnality in your life, then Jesus Christ is not choosing you to reign with Him as the Sons of God in the Kingdom of God to bring all Heaven and Earth to repentance and salvation!

And I will tell you on the authority of Jesus Christ and all the Holy Scriptures, that anyone who teaches and takes delight in thinking that God would ever torture anyone for all eternity, will NEVER BE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD WITH SUCH AN ATTITUDE!

Such damnable character flaws of the mind and spirit are going to be burned out of us all! God will either BURN OUT these filthy impurities from our hearts and minds NOW, or He will BURN THEM OUT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, but either way, make no mistake about it, THESE THINGS ARE COMING OUT!!!

JOHN THE BAPTIST: John the Baptist said that Jesus would be baptizing repentant believers with fire.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto REPENTANCE: but He that comes after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, AND WITH FIRE" (Matt. 3:11).

JESUS CHRIST:

"For EVERY ONE [sinner and saint] shall be salted with FIRE" (Mark 9:49).

APOSTLE PETER:

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it [your faith] be TRIED IN THE FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).

APOSTLE PAUL:

"Every man’s work [including believers] shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE, and the FIRE shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).

With such noble and august witnesses, does anyone deny that the repentant, converted, dedicated, believing Christian will escape being "revealed," tried," "salted," and "baptized" by FIRE? These Scriptures are undeniable! Whatever this "fire" is, it is going to be used ON EVERYONE. These four Scriptures have the believer specifically in view, but it says and includes "EVERYONE shall be salted with FIRE," and "EVERY MAN’S WORK ... shall be revealed by FIRE."

And there is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE when it comes to the non-believers:

"And I saw a great white throne ... And I saw the dead...and the dead were JUDGED ... according to their WORKS ... and they were judged EVERY MAN according to their WORKS" (Rev. 20:11-13).

And are these non-believers judged differently from believers who are "revealed, tried, salted and baptized IN FIRE?" Just HOW are these non-believers judged in the book of Revelation? How are the "...fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars..." JUDGED? Answer: "... In the lake WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE ..." (Rev. 21:8)!

Is this "fire" in the book of Revelation DIFFERENT from the fire that tries the works of believers in the book of I Corinthians? NO. The word "fire" used in the four examples above concerning believers, is the SAME word "fire" used in the book of Revelation concerning non-believers:

STRONG’s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 219, #4442, pur; a primary word; "fire" (literally OR FIGURATIVELY. Pur is used (besides its ordinary natural significance):

(1) of the holiness of God, which consumes all that is inconsistent therewith, Heb. 10:27; 12:29; cf. Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 10:1; 15:2; 19:12;

(1a) similarly of the holy angels as His ministers, Heb. 1:7;

(1b) in Rev. 3:18 it is SYMBOLIC of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD;

(2) of the divine judgment, testing the deeds of believers, at the judgment seat of Christ I Cor. 3:13 and 15;

(3) of the fire of DIVINE JUDGMENT upon the REJECTERS of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the holy Spirit at Pentecost and the "fire" of divine retribution; Acts 2:3 could not refer to baptism); Lk. 3:16."

End of quotation, (All CAPS emphasis are mine).

Thank God for this guy, the truth hid away from me for to long.