Bible Prophecy VS. Evolution Prophecy...

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

I've pretty much HAD it with claims of prophecies from the religious folk here on the forums. When I ask for prophecies, I get bullshit such as "a child will be born to a virgin and she shall call him IMMANUEL" as a "prophecy" for Jesus, even though his name is JESUS, NOT IMMANUEL. So here's an interesting little challenge for everybody to participate in:

Below are a bunch of predictions, or prophecies if you will, that were made by evolution. If bible thumpers are SO convinced by "prophecies" of the Bible, then shouldn't you be at LEAST equally impressed or convinced by prophecies of evolution?

From HERE (http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/evo_science.html) :


Darwin predicted that precursors to the trilobite would be found in pre-Silurian rocks. He was correct: they were subsequently found.


Similarly, Darwin predicted that Precambrian fossils would be found. He wrote in 1859 that the total absence of fossils in Precambrian rock was "inexplicable" and that the lack might "be truly urged as a valid argument" against his theory. When such fossils were found, starting in 1953, it turned out that they had been abundant all along. They were just so small that it took a microscope to see them.


There are two kinds of whales: those with teeth, and those that strain microscopic food out of seawater with baleen. It was predicted that a transitional whale must have once existed, which had both teeth and baleen. Such a fossil has since been found.


Evolution predicts that we will find fossil series.


Evolution predicts that the fossil record will show different populations of creatures at different times. For example, it predicts we will never find fossils of trilobites with fossils of dinosaurs, since their geological time-lines don't overlap. The "Cretaceous seaway" deposits in Colorado and Wyoming contain almost 90 different kinds of ammonites, but no one has ever found two different kinds of ammonite together in the same rockbed.


Evolution predicts that animals on distant islands will appear closely related to animals on the closest mainland, and that the older and more distant the island, the more distant the relationship.


Evolution predicts that features of living things will fit a hierarchical arrangement of relatedness. For example, arthropods all have chitinous exoskeleton, hemocoel, and jointed legs. Insects have all these plus head-thorax-abdomen body plan and 6 legs. Flies have all that plus two wings and halteres. Calypterate flies have all that plus a certain style of antennae, wing veins, and sutures on the face and back. You will never find the distinguishing features of calypterate flies on a non-fly, much less on a non-insect or non-arthropod.


Evolution predicts that simple, valuable features will evolve independently, and that when they do, they will most likely have differences not relevant to function. For example, the eyes of molluscs, arthropods, and vertebrates are extremely different, and ears can appear on any of at least ten different locations on different insects.


In 1837, a Creationist reported that during a pig's fetal development, part of the incipient jawbone detaches and becomes the little bones of the middle ear. After Evolution was invented, it was predicted that there would be a transitional fossil, of a reptile with a spare jaw joint right near its ear. A whole series of such fossils has since been found - the cynodont therapsids.


It was predicted that humans must have an intermaxillary bone, since other mammals do. The adult human skull consists of bones that have fused together, so you can't tell one way or the other in an adult. An examination of human embryonic development showed that an intermaxillary bone is one of the things that fuses to become your upper jaw.


In 1861, the first Archaeopteryx fossil was found. It was clearly a primitive bird with reptilian features. But, the fossil's head was very badly preserved. In 1872 Ichthyornis and Hesperornis were found. Both were clearly seabirds, but to everyone's astonishment, both had teeth. It was predicted that if we found a better-preserved Archaeopteryx, it too would have teeth. In 1877, a second Archaeopteryx was found, and the prediction turned out to be correct.


Almost all animals make Vitamin C inside their bodies. It was predicted that humans are descended from creatures that could do this, and that we had lost this ability. (There was a loss-of-function mutation, which didn't matter because our high-fruit diet was rich in Vitamin C.) When human DNA was studied, scientists found a gene which is just like the Vitamin C gene in dogs and cats. However, our copy has been turned off.


In "The Origin Of Species" (1859), Darwin said:
"If it could be proved that any part of the structure of any one species had been formed for the exclusive good of another species, it would annihilate my theory, for such could not have been produced through natural selection."
Chapter VI, Difficulties Of The Theory
This challenge has not been met. In the ensuing 140 years, no such thing has been found. Plants give away nectar and fruit, but they get something in return. Taking care of other members of one's own species (kin selection) doesn't count, so ants and bees (and mammalian milk) don't count.


Darwin pointed out that the Madagascar Star orchid has a spur 30 centimeters (about a foot) long, with a puddle of nectar at the bottom. Now, evolution says that nectar isn't free. Creatures that drink it pay for it, by carrying pollen away to another orchid. For that to happen, the creature must rub against the top of the spur. So, Darwin concluded that the spur had evolved its length as an arms race. Some creature had a way to reach deeply without shoving itself hard against the pollen-producing parts. Orchids with longer spurs would be more likely to spread their pollen, so Darwin's gradualistic scenario applied. The spur would evolve to be longer and longer. From the huge size, the creature must have evolved in return, reaching deeper and deeper. So, he predicted in 1862 that Madagascar has a species of hawkmoth with a tongue just slightly shorter than 30 cm.
The creature that pollinated that orchid was not learned until 1902, forty years later. It was indeed a moth, and it had a 25 cm tongue. And in 1988 it was proven that moth-pollinated short-spurred orchids did set less seed than long ones.


A thousand years ago, just about every remote island on the planet had a species of flightless bird. Evolution explains this by saying that flying creatures are particularly able to establish themselves on remote islands. Some birds, living in a safe place where there is no need to make sudden escapes, will take the opportunity to give up on flying. Hence, Evolution predicts that each flightless bird species arose on the island that it was found on. So, Evolution predicts that no two islands would have the same species of flightless bird. Now that all the world's islands have been visited, we know that this was a correct prediction.


The "same" protein in two related species is usually slightly different. A protein is made from a sequence of amino acids, and the two species have slightly different sequences. We can measure the sequences of many species, and cladistics has a mathematical procedure which tells us if these many sequences imply one common ancestral sequence. Evolution predicts that these species are all descended from a common ancestral species, and that the ancestral species used the ancestral sequence.
This has been done for pancreatic ribonuclease in ruminants. (Cows, sheep, goats, deer and giraffes are ruminants.) Measurements were made on various ruminants. An ancestral sequence was computed, and protein molecules with that sequence were manufactured. When sequences are chosen at random, we usually wind up with a useless goo. However, the manufactured molecules were biologically active substances. Furthermore, they did exactly what a pancreatic ribonuclease is supposed to do - namely, digest ribonucleic acids.


I recently asked Assassin X to provide me with ONE Bible prophecy after he told me that there were over 300 of them that have come true. Needless to say, he answered EVERYTHING ELSE that I asked EXCEPT for the prophecy request. I would like the religious folk here to post Bible prophecies that have come true, one at a time preferably, so that they can be properly scrutinized...

[Cartesiantheater]

I know you want Biblical predictions... but I thought I would add another evolution prediction that turned out to be true...

Evolution predicted that humans would have a chromosome that LOOKED as if it was two chromosomes fused together because our closest primate relatives have one more chromosome pair than us... now... once we gained the technology to see in detail, guess what? We FOUND exactly what was predicted...

A source... (http://www.gate.net/~rwms/hum_ape_chrom.html)


When the vicinity of chromosome 2 where the fusion is expected to occur (based on comparison to chimp chromosomes 2p and 2q) is examined, we see first sequences that are characteristic of the pre-telomeric region, then a section of telomeric sequences, and then another section of pre-telomeric sequences. Furthermore, in the telomeric section, it is observed that there is a point where instead of being arranged head to tail, the telomeric repeats suddenly reverse direction - becoming (CCCTAA)3' instead of 5'(TTAGGG), and the second pre-telomeric section is also the reverse of the first telomeric section. This pattern is precisely as predicted by a telomere to telomere fusion of the chimpanzee (ancestor) 2p and 2q chromosomes, and in precisely the expected location.

[Traveler]

Here is a very interesting set of OT prophecies fulfilled by Jesus in the NT.

They said He would be:

1. "Sold" for 30 pieces of silver [Zech.11:12; fulfilled in Mt.26:31-56].

2. Forsaken by His disciples [Zech.13:7; fulfilled in Mt.26:31-56].

3. Mocked [Ps.22:7-8; fulfilled in Mt.26:67-68; 27:31-44].

4. Spat on [Isa.50:6; fulfilled in Mt.26:67; 27:30 .

5. Beaten [Isa.50:6; fulfilled in Mt.26:67-68; 27:26-30 .

6. Executed without having a bone broken [Ex.12:46; Ps.34:20; fulfilled in Jn.19:33-36].

7. Thirsty during His execution [Ps.22:15; fulfilled in Jn.19:28].

8. Given vinegar to quench His thirst [Ps.69:21; fulfilled in Mt.27:34].

9. Considered a lawbreaker ["transgressor"] - [Isa.53:12; fulfilled in Mt.27:38].

10. "Cut off [executed], but not for Himself" 69 X 7 years after the command to rebuild Jerusalem [Dan.9:24-26; fulfilled in Rom.5:6 and 1 Pet.3:18].

11. Buried in a rich man's tomb [Isa.53:9; fulfilled in Mt.27:57-60.

12. Raised from the dead [Isa.53:9-10; fulfilled in Mt.28:1-20 .

The above prophecies were made between 500 to 1,500 years before Christ was born - and all of them were perfectly fulfilled and recorded in the New Testament.

[DontBeAfraid]

The above prophecies were made between 500 to 1,500 years before Christ was bornDont you mean 300-600 PAGES before it was written that BatManuel was born?

and all of them were perfectly fulfilled and recorded in the New Testamentand shouldnt this read: all these were loosely fullfilled in chapter two of the book in which they were foreshadowed?

edit: Traveler I have SERIOUS doubts that you are the original author of the list you posted, as such you NEED to site your source BEFORE your post gets deleted for plagarism. If your posts are not edited to include your source in the next couple of minutes Im hitting the report button.

[jeffweeder]

I hope you dont go all nasty on me Bill, and proceed to tear apart everything that i will post on this thread.

I just want to assure you that i am not doing this in a religous way at all, but i would like to say a few things before hand, so you can more understand were i am coming from.

I have come to these conclusions myself over the last 26 years of accepting that there just might be some truth to this bible.

I'm intrigued by the fact that their is such a people as Jews and Israelis, and they hold firm to the fact that it is their history. In no other book will you find the borders of Israel.

From the earliest patriachs, we see established that a certain king will come in a certain way, and throughout the bible over the next 1500 years or so many distinguished figures added their revelation of this king, so we have a comprehensive overview of this figure, written by everyone from Moses-to king David- and all the prophets.

So you have all these foregleams, predictions all pointing to one individual- in a specified time, and the fact that most of these predictions were fulfilled in a 24 hr period by Jesus - in the specified time.
, as they dealt with, trial- suffering- death -Then ressurection.-is most impressive.

Examples
Trial- betrayed with kiss,- 30 pieces of silver- the potters house- the field-the suicide

Death- hands feet pierced-the mocking of the crowd- the lots made for his garments- no bones broken- his parting words-the theives- The vinegar


So lets start with a song-
Ps 22

1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far[2][Or Why are You so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning? ] from my deliverance are the words of my groaning[3][Lit roaring ].


His dying words


9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother's breasts.


10 Upon You I was cast from birth[10][Lit a womb ];
You have been my God from my mother's womb.



11 Be not far from me, for trouble[11][Or distress ] is near;
For there is none to help.


12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.


13 They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.


14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me[12][Lit my inward parts ].


15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You lay me in[13][Lit to ] the dust of death.


16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A[14][Or An assembly ] band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They[15][Another reading is Like a lion, my... ] pierced my hands and my feet.


17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;


18 They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.

[Traveler]

You demanded an answer

Now you have one

Be careful what you wish for.

[DontBeAfraid]

Not quite the same, the prophecies bill posted were well spelled out and can be interpreted in no other way than as fulfilled.

You posted a series of single sentences followed by two scripture adresses.

Why dont you post some specific prophecies followed by the actual verses that make and fulfill the prophecies, that way we can see just how loosely they are related?

[Traveler]

Ok

I'll do it this weekend, This was just a quick list kept for this kind of thing.

[DontBeAfraid]

Funny thing is, I have found this EXACT list on several sites.... So would you be so kind as to site one of them as your source? Or is stealing intellectual property approved by GeeWiz?

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

I don't have time to go over Traveler's stuff in detail right now. I'll try to do that tomorrow. Just a quick note though. Traveler: I'm not looking for prophecies made by the Bible that the Bible then later "says" were fulfilled. I'm looking for prophecies of events or people that happened AFTER the Bible was written which would then show that the Bible was correct in its prediction. In other words, has the Bible predicted ANY events BEYOND Biblical times that can be confirmed by something OTHER than the Bible? I've given you VERY specific predictions made by DARWIN HIMSELF in the 1800's which were subsequently INDEPENDENTLY confirmed. Darwin made these predictions during a time when we knew VERY LITTLE about how things worked which was pretty amazing

Jeff, I will look at your stuff tomorrow as well in more detail and I won't ridicule you because you are being sincere in your approach to this.

[grendel 13]

you know in the movie "the matrix" there was a prophesy about some guy that would be born and he would be "the one" and he would do things in the matrix that no one else could do. and than in "the matrix: reloaded" and "the matrix: revolutions" that guy actually appeared and did all the stuff that the prophesy said he would, he even stopped the destruction of the humans. maybe we should start worshipping neo, and accept the movies as actual truth.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

1. "Sold" for 30 pieces of silver [Zech.11:12; fulfilled in Mt.26:31-56].
12 I then said to them, ‘If it seems right to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.’ So they weighed out as my wages thirty shekels of silver.
This passage has NOTHING to do with Jesus AT ALL. What are you trying to pull here? Did you think that I wouldn't read it?


2. Forsaken by His disciples [Zech.13:7; fulfilled in Mt.26:31-56].
7 ‘Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,’ says the Lord of hosts.
Strike the shepherd, that the sheep may be scattered;
I will turn my hand against the little ones.
Are you KIDDING me? REALLY???


3. Mocked [Ps.22:7-8; fulfilled in Mt.26:67-68; 27:31-44].
7 All who see me mock at me;
they make mouths at me, they shake their heads;
DAVID wrote this. He is referring to HIMSELF here. Again, NO mention of Jesus...


4. Spat on .
[I]46 It shall be eaten in one house; you shall not take any of the animal outside the house, and you shall not break any of its bones.
Oh, you have GOT to be kidding, right? WHAT are you trying to pull here, Traveler? SHAME ON YOU...

20He keeps all their bones;
not one of them will be broken.
Simply, NO...


7. Thirsty during His execution [Ps.22:15; fulfilled in Jn.19:28].
Wow, it's pretty unusual for someone's mouth to be dry while they're dying...


8. Given vinegar to quench His thirst [Ps.69:21; fulfilled in Mt.27:34].
No.


Okay, that's enough. This is getting ridiculous. I've already mentioned that I'm looking for something different anyway. Many people people consider much of the Bible to be a work of fiction. I'm looking for prophecies made by the Bible that have been INDEPENDENTLY confirmed ( ie - NOT by the Bible ) by REAL HISTORY...

[jeffweeder]

Jesus prophecy in luke 24--33AD

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize[12][Lit know ] that her desolation is near.
21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the[13][Lit her ] city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the[14][Lit her ] city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land[15][Or earth ] and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


In 70AD MOST of this prophecy was fulfilled, with the Jews being scattered, but the last sentence about Jerusalem no longer being trampled on by Gentile powers, saw its fullfilment in 1967.

The prophecy doesnt stop there;

cont..
25 "There will be signs[16][Or attesting miracles ] in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,


In 1969 man stepped onto the moon etc


26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world[17][Lit inhabited earth ]; for the powers of the[18][Or heaven ] heavens will be shaken.
27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."


29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees;
30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
31 "So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize[19][Lit know ] that the kingdom of God is near.
32 "Truly I say to you, this generation[20][Or race ] will not pass away until all things take place.
33 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.


I am not sure how long a GEN is, but its 40-70 years.

With 1967 being the possible starting point of that Gen, because of verse 24, the signs that follow -25-> should be evident now and are

There are OT prophecies about this same day also, which is consistent with this, as they to mention Israel/Judah being restored to the land of their forefathers.

[Traveler]

I don't have time to go over Traveler's stuff in detail right now. I'll try to do that tomorrow. Just a quick note though. Traveler: I'm not looking for prophecies made by the Bible that the Bible then later "says" were fulfilled. I'm looking for prophecies of events or people that happened AFTER the Bible was written which would then show that the Bible was correct in its prediction. In other words, has the Bible predicted ANY events BEYOND Biblical times that can be confirmed by something OTHER than the Bible? I've given you VERY specific predictions made by DARWIN HIMSELF in the 1800's which were subsequently INDEPENDENTLY confirmed. Darwin made these predictions during a time when we knew VERY LITTLE about how things worked which was pretty amazing

Jeff, I will look at your stuff tomorrow as well in more detail and I won't ridicule you because you are being sincere in your approach to this.


I did give you the one about the towers falling and global warming. That applied to this generation. It was up for a couple of days but you never replied.

However this is one that is still future

Zechariah Chapter 14

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.


From verse 12 there is the impression that this is the result of a crude atomic bomb. There were reports similar to this from Japan. From verse 15 it is plain that all living things will be affected by this.

Neither can there be any question that events in Israel could well head in this direction.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

I did give you the one about the towers falling and global warming. That applied to this generation. It was up for a couple of days but you never replied.

Where did you "give" me this??? I don't see it. Where is it? How can I reply to it when I don't even know WHERE it is? And it's HYPOCRITICAL to accuse me of not replying to your posts when YOU YOURSELF didn't reply to the sound thrashing that I gave to your pathetic list of "prophecies" that included a few outright DECEPTIONS on your part. VERY unethical, Traveler. Trying to pull a fast one like you did won't help you to gain the trust of the intelligent people here...


However this is one that is still future

So THAT'S IT for the "prophecies" that have "come true"??? THAT'S IT??? Now you have to resort to ones that haven't happened yet??? "Is there no one else? Is there no one else?" ( kudos to anyone who can tell me what movie that's from )


In 70AD MOST of this prophecy was fulfilled
But many scholars believe that Luke was written AFTER 70 AD...


25 "There will be signs[16][Or attesting miracles ] in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, In 1969 man stepped onto the moon etc

This is simply WAY too vague...


26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world[17][Lit inhabited earth ]; for the powers of the[18][Or heaven ] heavens will be shaken.
27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees;
30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
31 "So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize[19][Lit know ] that the kingdom of God is near.
32 "Truly I say to you, this generation[20][Or race ] will not pass away until all things take place.
33 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

I am not sure how long a GEN is, but its 40-70 years.

With 1967 being the possible starting point of that Gen, because of verse 24, the signs that follow -25-> should be evident now and are

NO, Jeff! This actually shows that this was all supposed to happen about 2000 years ago!

[Demonskates]

Where did you "give" me this??? I don't see it. Where is it? How can I reply to it when I don't even know WHERE it is? And it's HYPOCRITICAL to accuse me of not replying to your posts when YOU YOURSELF didn't reply to the sound thrashing that I gave to your pathetic list of "prophecies" that included a few outright DECEPTIONS on your part. VERY unethical, Traveler. Trying to pull a fast one like you did won't help you to gain the trust of the intelligent people here...


So THAT'S IT for the "prophecies" that have "come true"??? THAT'S IT??? Now you have to resort to ones that haven't happened yet??? "Is there no one else? Is there no one else?" ( kudos to anyone who can tell me what movie that's from )


But many scholars believe that Luke was written AFTER 70 AD...


This is simply WAY too vague...


NO, Jeff! This actually shows that this was all supposed to happen about 2000 years ago!

Is there no one else?is there no one else?That was from the movie Troy.Wheres my Kudos?!!!!!

[Traveler]

This is a copy of the post that was up for two days.

Sorry if you missed it, Would you like to have a crack at it now.

No! You have miss read the situation again. Billy may be having a great deal of fun ridiculing the concepts of religion and he may be wise in his own eyes but he has very little effect on me at all. I find no real substance in him at all. He is hollow. I’ve been through all this before. I used to have to face the same thing when doing my service. The Christians were often ridiculed but when the shit hit the fan and the mortar bombs started to fall as a solid wall in advancing waves those self same mockers were the very ones that were yelling at the Christians to pray because they could not. It also turned out that the big tough guys were also the first to wet themselves. War gives you a lot of insight into a persons character because the veneer of civilization is stripped away and every thing gets reduced to its basic common denominators.

Billy is not a free thinker, he is a product of his social conditioning. It started here in the following quote.


"Every child in America entering school at the age of five is insane because he comes to school with certain allegiances toward our founding fathers, toward our elected officials, toward his parents, toward a belief in a supernatural being, toward the sovereignty of this nation as a separate entity. It's up to you as teachers to make all of these sick children well, by creating the international children of the future."

~Dr. C.M. Pierce of Harvard University in a speech to teachers (1973)

You have miss read me as well. You believe that I am carrying around a lot of extra baggage in the form of racial prejudicious because of where I come from. Have you heard me utter one word of hate or revenge towards the black races? No! They are first and foremost simple tribesmen. That is what they are. Like Billy I accept them for what they are but just because they are what they are it does not mean that I’m going to set my family up to be harmed by them. If I faced the same situation in any other country populated by any other race do you think that I would act any differently. The race is not the issue, AIDS was.

Now I did an analysis of why Africa was such a wreck and that is what I came up with. Despite your protests to the contents of that analysis you have not given me any solid reason to doubt that I am incorrect in my conclusions. You only objected to the fact that the subject matter was not compatible to your own philosophical view of how the world should be. Not what it is. Do you think that I have not cast the same critical eye on doing an analysis of my new home here in north America. Do you think that the negative aspects of my conclusions are based on the races that I live amongst or what I observe going on around me? You all hold up science but experience shock if it explores areas outside the political ideals you wish to promote. The word for that is hypocrite!

Now you have suggested and others have demanded in a mocking fashion that I give you some form of evidence to prove that there is a God. Something that you can sink your teeth into and do a critical analysis of that is not just here say. Well I have given you something that I posted on this very forum. From the view counter many have looked at it but no one commented or ridiculed it. You all just backed right off so as not to upset your desired reality. I supposed you all hoped that it would just go away.

This evidence consists of a two thousand seven hundred year old prophecy from the old testament that looks at the time we are living in to day. It is talking about our generations current events. It tells of a natural event that we call global warming and the melting of the glaciers that are located on the top of the high mountains and then ties it in to the political events of the time by describing 911 and the war that will follow. It then goes further and tells of the sun getting hotter which it is now starting to do just as predicted.

This is where it is located

http://www.armageddononline.org/foru...ead.php?t=8977

And this is one of the verses out of it

25. There will be on every high mountain and on every high hill Rivers and streams of water, In the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

[Traveler]

The link no longer works so I reposted it here


This was foreseen.

The book of Isaiah was written in 733 BC. It is one of the most prolific books of prophecy located in the Old Testament of the Christian and Hebrew Bible. A great number of the prophecies deal with the first coming of Christ where he sets in motion the building up of his Kingdom, followed by his death on the cross where he redeems this fallen world back to God using his blood as the required currency.

However there is also a great deal of other prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled regarding the end of the age when the Messiah returns to establish his kingdom here on this earth. Many of these prophecies look at conditions on the earth just before the return of Christ along with the condition of the nation of Israel, which is considered Gods inheritance. A separate entity from the Church which belongs to Christ.

In amongst these prophecies I came across this little gem, who’s context would tend to indicate that it applies to us today. It also carries a warning of other incidents that are to come in the very near future. For your interest you may like to give this one a second look.

It is located in the book of Isaiah, Chapter 30, verses 23 through to 28.

23. Then he will give the rain for your seed with which you sow the ground, And bread of the increase of the earth. It will be fat and plenteous. In that day your cattle will feed in large pastures.

This section starts at a time when there will be prosperity. The rains will be regular and the harvest good. Things will be stable and people will be at ease. For cattle to feed in large pastures was very unusual in the day of Isaiah. In his day this was the privy of the wealthy only. A pasture has to be fenced and grass planted. Back in his day the cattle would free range and fend for themselves. It is only in the modern days that we live in that fences can be erected at a moderate cost and the land worked as it is.

24. Likewise the oxen and young donkeys that work the ground will eat cured fodder, which has been winnowed with the shovel and fan.

This was unheard of in his day. The amount of labour involved in doing this would be prohibitive. No animal would be worth so much effort. But in our time this is the normal. We can do this because we are now mechanized and we have machines to do all the hard work. All we have to do is feed the raw material to the machine and then cart away the finished product which we feed to our live stock so as to obtain a good market price. Cattle are sold by weight.

25. There will be on every high mountain and on every high hill Rivers and streams of water, In the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

Now we come to the interesting part when everything starts to go wrong. Now you do not get rivers and streams on the top of high mountains. When it rains the water runs straight off and only collects into rivers and streams at the lower elevations where it gradually makes its way back to the sea. What you do get on the top of high mountains are permanent glaciers and snow caps. But guess what? It is only in this generation that we are feeling the effects of global warming. Only in our time are all these ancient glaciers starting to melt and streams and rivers are forming high in the mountains because all this melting ice has nowhere to go but down in the form of water. And right on cue the towers have fallen and as of this moment, the slaughter is still going on as a result of this terrorist act. This prophecy is so old and yet so specific that it boggles the mind.

26. Moreover the light of the moon will be as the light of the Sun. And the light of the sun will be seven fold. As the light of seven days. In the day that the Lord binds up the bruises of his people, And heals the stroke of their wound

This now moves on to the next event that has still to happen, but you can already see the ground work being laid for these events. We used to have a yellow sun. If you look in any old science text book from the 1980's and before it will state categorically that we have a yellow sun. But if you look at it today you will see that it is now white. That is because in the early 1990's our sun changed its signature and started to emit more blue light, giving it the white appearance that we see today. That is the reason that many of the worlds governments are not doing too much about the green house gasses. They are not the cause of the global warming, The sun is. It is emitting more energy and warming up all the planets in our solar system, not just the earth. This is the next major natural event to occur. Mock this as much as you feel like but it will happen.

As I’m sure you must have noticed by now, both the Jews and the fundamental Christians are fast becoming societies pariahs. In fact countries such as Iran have called for the nation of Israel to be wiped of the face of the map. According to this piece of scripture this event involving the sun will occur just after the believers in God and the nation of Israel have taken a major hit that will leave them in a rather sorry state.

27. Behold the name of the Lord comes from afar, Burning with his anger, And his burden is heavy. His lips are full of indignation. And his tongue is like a devouring fire.

This verse indicates that the world wide persecution of the Jews and Christians will be so bad that it will cause God to intervene in the affairs of the nations again. This need not be a visible form of intervention but a movement of Gods spirit will be experienced by the people and nations that perpetrated this persecution and it will not be in a good way.

28. His breath is like an overflowing stream which reaches up to the neck. To sift the nations with the sieve of futility. And there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people causing them to err.

This verse explains the form of this intervention. Anything and everything that these nations will do will be fruitless. Come to nothing. The leadership will be making mistake after mistake. Here God says that he will be the one causing them to compound their misfortune.
So stock up on Sunblock. You are going to need it and it won’t do to be without because of the rush!

[Traveler]

My apologies, It would appear that you are quite correct in your criticisms.

This is a list that has been doing the circuit in Christian circles for quite a while now. I never actually bothered to check it out, far too trusting, one of my weaknesses.

Here I have made the corrections to the first one. I will go through all the others and redistribute it so that these errors can be put right. Its getting to the point where you can’t trust anything these days.


1. "Sold" for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah chapter.11 verses12-13; fulfilled in Matthew chapter 26 verses14 to 16 and also chapter 27 verses2 to 8

The prophecy

Zechariah chapter 11

12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was priced at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
Where fulfilled

Matthew Chapter 26

14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,

15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.

16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.


Matthew chapter 27

2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

[jeffweeder]

This is simply WAY too vague...


NO, Jeff! This actually shows that this was all supposed to happen about 2000 years ago!

How can this be so?


and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


What can it mean but the jews are dipersed and then they return.

Just as their were many prophetic things said about the messiah figure, so it is regarding Israel/Judah returning to the ancient homrland.

Jesus here is saying that Gentile rule would end- Because of the prophecies about the return.

Jesus was not meant to come back in AD 70- instead he sent his messengers to the nations with the gospel and said every nation, tongue ,culture will hear this message- Jerusalem would be back in the hands of Jews , and then the end would come.
Australian aborigines have only recently heard this message.

Allow me to post these prophecies of this return----with all their allusions.



Written: about 750 BC

Amos 9:14-15
I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the Lord your God.





Written: between 593-571 BC

Ezekiel 37:10-14
So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet--a vast army. Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, `Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them: `This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.'"



Written: 701-681 BC
Isaiah 66:7-8
"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children."

1948, The British lower the union jack-Israel put theirs up- all in one day



Written- 626 to about 586 BC

Jeremiah 16:14-15
"However, the days are coming," declares the Lord, "when men will no longer say, 'As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' but they will say, 'As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.




Written: between 593-571 BC
Ezekiel 34:13
I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.



Jeremiah 31:10
"Hear the word of the Lord, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: 'He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.'


They have survived-against all odds--havent they?


Leviticus 26:3, 7-8
"If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, … You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you."


If you have read about these recent wars of Israel--'48--67 etc etc,
then -well, do i need to say anything



Deuteronomy 30:3-5
then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.




Genesis 28:10-15
Jacob ... had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. There above it stood the Lord, and he said: "I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you."



Deuteronomy 28:64
Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. …






30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 "The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Will be delivered, behold, in those days and at that time,
When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all the nations
And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat[2][I.e. YHWH judges].
Then I will enter into judgment with them there
On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
And they have divided up My land.



not as vague as it might appear sometimes.

[darlingnikki]

amen and amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!1

[lazserus]

This will obviously turn into a poop-slinging cafeteria. I would like to add an objective position to this thread.

It's not often, but I have to object to Bill's approach to the subject. There's no true comparison of prophecy and prediction. I understand where Bill is coming from by supporting the fact that science can predict arbitrary outcomes based on contemporary technology and knowledge. However, it is never set in stone and people like Bill can accept that. The rate technology was progressing in the 1950s insinuated we'd have already colonized Mars.

Prophecies and predictions aren't the same. I just don't see that they could be compared. They don't walk parallel paths, so how can we truly compare and contrast the two?

Most prophecies are ambiguous predictions based on contemporary knowledge, but with little (mostly NONE) scientific data. Predictions in the field of science are quite the opposite. However, even science predicted things that haven't come true.

Prophecy? Scientific Prediction? In modern times we predict based off what we understand and even scholars are proved wrong. We use sciences such as political and social sciences in order to hypothesize our future. For those who were old enough to acknowledge, look at the Gulf War and its predictions. Compare that with the current war in Iraq. Unfortunately, aside from the few anomalies, it's like tossing a baseball in the air and calling heads or tails. Social science is a coin toss, real science is a little more secure.

To finalize my rant, I think religious prophecies and scientific predictions are on separate boats on different waters.

[Raptor Witness]

Well said Laz,

When there isn't enough food to eat because the rats have taken everything, and science can provide no remedy, or there's not enough sunlight to grow crops, God will seem more important then. In the mean time there's no harm in studying science, as long as you don't try to make a religion out of it.

Science will disappear in the flames, but gifts of the Holy Spirit will be on our resumes in Heaven. God asks that we not ignore Him, AND His handiwork. Science in it's arrogance dismisses the man of faith, but the man of faith has the power inside him to move mountains, as Jesus said.

I could tell you stories of the power of God that you wouldn't believe, but that's only because the test tube is the sky, and the mountains are men.

[Cartesiantheater]

Well, you still have to ask the question that IF prophesies really ARE of God, why are they so ambiguous? Why can't they be specific?

[jeffweeder]

Well, you still have to ask the question that IF prophesies really ARE of God, why are they so ambiguous? Why can't they be specific?

I know what you mean, but once you see more of the picture, those obscurities make sense.

They are specific , they either focus on the return to the land---(or the looming exile from the land) -or paint a picture of what kind of messiah was coming, and what he would accomplish---how he'd be treated---how he would die----and leave the whole land to desolation, because they rejected him and remained religous.


What historical people would show their king coming to them on the back of an ass only to be flogged and nailed to a wooden stake?

It was always obscure to the prophet who wrote in the first place. Often you read, i saw but i did not understand, but - write what you see.

Sifting through all these scriptures of Messiah, you can only see 1 individual in the whole of history so far, that comes within a bulls roar of this man we call Jesus.
Its the strangest thing.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Sorry if you missed it, Would you like to have a crack at it now.

Sure... Aahh... I see the problem now. This post was not addressed to me, Traveler. You're talking ABOUT me with someone else. That's probably why I never responded to it...


Billy is not a free thinker, he is a product of his social conditioning. It started here in the following quote.

"Every child in America entering school at the age of five is insane because he comes to school with certain allegiances toward our founding fathers, toward our elected officials, toward his parents, toward a belief in a supernatural being, toward the sovereignty of this nation as a separate entity. It's up to you as teachers to make all of these sick children well, by creating the international children of the future."

~Dr. C.M. Pierce of Harvard University in a speech to teachers (1973)

First of all, this quote is directed at Americans. I'm Canadian. Second of all, the quote actually implies that the desired result of this so-called "social conditioning", as you call it, is to "make all of these sick children well" by EDUCATING them. I've had alot of education in my lifetime, so I can only assume that, by posting this quote, you're implying that I am very "well" because of it. So, thank you for the compliment...


23. Then he will give the rain for your seed with which you sow the ground, And bread of the increase of the earth. It will be fat and plenteous. In that day your cattle will feed in large pastures.

These conditions are INCREDIBLY vague and generic, ridiculously so...


This section starts at a time when there will be prosperity.
A time of prosperity? This passage could JUST as easily describe the 1920's which have come and gone. Do you disagree, Traveler? If so, then please explain WHY the 1920's couldn't be the subject of this passage. And also, when you say that we are enjoying prosperity, are you referring to the current "prosperity" that they are enjoying in your beloved Africa right now?


The rains will be regular and the harvest good.
In AFRICA? Really?


A pasture has to be fenced and grass planted. Back in his day the cattle would free range and fend for themselves. It is only in the modern days that we live in that fences can be erected at a moderate cost and the land worked as it is.

A pasture does NOT have to be fenced. Why do you have to make stuff up like this? Why do you have to twist everything to make it fit? Just watch "Brokeback Mountain" and you'll see that a pasture doesn't have to be fenced... Oh... I fogot that you're a Christian... never mind about the "Brokeback Mountain" thingy then...


This was unheard of in his day. The amount of labour involved in doing this would be prohibitive.
I don't know about this one. Winnowing with a shovel and a fan seems to be a pretty simple thing to do...


Only in our time are all these ancient glaciers starting to melt and streams and rivers are forming high in the mountains because all this melting ice has nowhere to go but down in the form of water. And right on cue the towers have fallen and as of this moment, the slaughter is still going on as a result of this terrorist act.
Vague vagueity vague vague vague. Plus, how many buildings have been demolished and subsequently "fallen"? And "slaughter"? There are a BAZILLION slaughters that have occurred throughout human history...


This prophecy is so old and yet so specific that it boggles the mind.

No, it's not specific at all. If it WAS specific, then maybe it should've, at the VERY least, mentioned that there were TWO towers and some sort of date would've been nice. After all, TWO airplanes smashing into TWO of the BIGGEST buildings in the WORLD is one of THE most INDELIBLE images that mankind has EVER witnessed. Don't you think that a TRUE prophecy of this event would've made SOME mention of AIRPLANES??? Do you really think that this is unreasonable to expect of a prophecy of possibly THE most indelible moment that mankind has been witness to? Did you HONESTLY read this passage BEFORE 9/11 and think to yourself, "OH MY GOD! PLANES ARE GONNA SMASH INTO THE WORLD TRADE CENTER BUILDINGS AND COMPLETELY DESTROY THEM!" HONESTLY???


If you look in any old science text book from the 1980's and before it will state categorically that we have a yellow sun. But if you look at it today you will see that it is now white. That is because in the early 1990's our sun changed its signature and started to emit more blue light, giving it the white appearance that we see today.
Do you have a source for this info?

[Traveler]

Bill

You have missed the point here. This section of prophecy was given for reasons that you have not grasped. The main focus was global warming and the part the sun plays in it.

Now if I had found this passage on September 10th , 2001 and understood that this event was to happen at the same time that global warming was to be getting underway, then what could I do with it.

Which towers are these? Where are these towers? What causes them to fall? Now if I had cottoned on to the idea that it would be the worlds tallest towers and went to the authorities with the passage then what do you think would happen.

I would simply run into someone like you who would want to know when and how. I would probably be ridiculed with the statement that there has already been an attempt and it failed, Just goes to show that the bible prophecy was wrong etc, etc.

Biblical prophecies are not given with the intention that we will be able to change the course of future history. They are normally global in nature and are to provide encouragement for Gods people.

But if I had taken these prophetic words to the same authorities on September 12, 2001 and shown it to them then they would have wanted to rip me to shreds for not telling them about it before. The difference in reaction will be totally different just over a space of two days.

IT is only now that the words of “when the towers fell” has become globally recognized as an event that marks a specific spot in history.

Now the real objective of this prophecy is to warn that the sun is going to get much hotter, but it is not the end of the world. It will only be tempory in nature. IT is just an event that will happen but life will go on. At the moment there is a lot of action behind the scenes to hide the fact that the sun is heating up and there is the vain hope that it will just go away before public panic sets in. But it will get to the point where they will not be able to hide this any more and it is at this point that everyone will be hauling this prophecy out to quell that panic.

It is also a heads up to Gods people that they are not to loose hope in the face of the persecutions and ridicule that is to be directed towards them. God will be acting on their behalf, at which point your God Reveal Yourself thread will probably be used to your shame!

As for the sun changing its signature. Go to the library, pick out the oldest encyclopedia you see and look up the sun. Its all there. It is called a yellow sun. I know what the old school text books said because that is what I learnt from. As I kid back in the 60's, when I looked at the sun it was yellow. To day it is not!

[Traveler]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
The rains will be regular and the harvest good.

In AFRICA? Really?

The failure of the rains in Africa is recent history, not old history. They started to fail in my life time. We always had regular rains from the ITCZ and you could set your calendar by them. You are attempting to squash events down to the perspective of your own short life span.

[Flynn]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
If you look in any old science text book from the 1980's and before it will state categorically that we have a yellow sun. But if you look at it today you will see that it is now white. That is because in the early 1990's our sun changed its signature and started to emit more blue light, giving it the white appearance that we see today.
The sun is still classified as yellow. I challenge you to find a text book that says otherwise. The sun gives off light of every wavelength, which is why it appears white. However, if you break up the light and measure the intensity of the individual wavelengths, the yellow wavelength is more intense. There have been no recent changes in the composition or intensity of the Sun's light.

[uki]

firstly you must take into account my belief in being able to step outside the dimension of time and linear perceptions.


In 1861, the first Archaeopteryx fossil was found. It was clearly a primitive bird with reptilian features. But, the fossil's head was very badly preserved. In 1872 Ichthyornis and Hesperornis were found. Both were clearly seabirds, but to everyone's astonishment, both had teeth. It was predicted that if we found a better-preserved Archaeopteryx, it too would have teeth. In 1877, a second Archaeopteryx was found, and the prediction turned out to be correct. a genetically modified creation consisting of both reptilian and avian genetic traits. appears like cross breeding to me. taking traits of both in attempts to create a harmonius creation. the union of the earth(lizards) and the sky(birds).



However, our copy has been turned off.who/what/why/where/when/how did this just turn off? i recall a period of time was when i was growing up where the new medical trend was to get your appendix removed, get your tonsils removed, and get your wisdom teeth pulled out... they base explanation was simply that we did not need them anymore. the same could be applied in the field of genetic engineering, certain traits and characteristics can be turned off or limited in some ways; thereby creating a dependency in which the being strives for to ensure survival... energy=motion. intent=work. work for whom? who supplies our need?

our employers.

now imagine that our employers, were actually our creators.


Plants give away nectar and fruit, but they get something in return.no. plants provide. duality is the principle of nature; there are opposites in and of all things. there is a provider and there is a reciever. it's all a symbiotic relationship. things like genetic engineering upset the balance of things. yet in truth there must be an upset of balance to offset any variation in the universal balance of life.... so it's all part of the scheme of things; it is just being brought back out into the light. anyone researching parallel universes(ancient history) should take into account how interesting it is to note that saruman(tolkien) creates the uruk-hai; an upset in the balance that ultimately brings upon his demise.



Taking care of other members of one's own species (kin selection) doesn't count, so ants and bees (and mammalian milk) don't count. the most harmonious society is one where the beings(as individuals) simply understand there role and the part they play to ensure survival of the colony(civilization); this concept is called hive mentality. here again the mind reading-mental telepathy concepts again re-emerge. jesus said to look to the ants. taoism centers around the observation ove nature to explain and make sense of life. by imitating nature, one realizes that all nature is a representation of all other aspects of itself.



Darwin pointed out that the Madagascar Star orchid has a spur 30 centimeters (about a foot) long, with a puddle of nectar at the bottom. Now, evolution says that nectar isn't free. Creatures that drink it pay for it, by carrying pollen away to another orchid. For that to happen, the creature must rub against the top of the spur. So, Darwin concluded that the spur had evolved its length as an arms race. Some creature had a way to reach deeply without shoving itself hard against the pollen-producing parts. Orchids with longer spurs would be more likely to spread their pollen, so Darwin's gradualistic scenario applied. The spur would evolve to be longer and longer. From the huge size, the creature must have evolved in return, reaching deeper and deeper. So, he predicted in 1862 that Madagascar has a species of hawkmoth with a tongue just slightly shorter than 30 cm.
The creature that pollinated that orchid was not learned until 1902, forty years later. It was indeed a moth, and it had a 25 cm tongue. And in 1988 it was proven that moth-pollinated short-spurred orchids did set less seed than long ones.this is qigong and kung fu all summed up. energy=motion.



A thousand years ago, just about every remote island on the planet had a species of flightless bird. Evolution explains this by saying that flying creatures are particularly able to establish themselves on remote islands. Some birds, living in a safe place where there is no need to make sudden escapes, will take the opportunity to give up on flying. Hence, Evolution predicts that each flightless bird species arose on the island that it was found on. So, Evolution predicts that no two islands would have the same species of flightless bird. Now that all the world's islands have been visited, we know that this was a correct prediction. when there is no need to fly, why have wings? it sucks being stranded and your GPS is all scrambled... cycles of ages. chaos in the geo-magnetic structure of the planets energy fields... species learn to adapt.




I recently asked Assassin X to provide me with ONE Bible prophecy after he told me that there were over 300 of them that have come true. Needless to say, he answered EVERYTHING ELSE that I asked EXCEPT for the prophecy request. I would like the religious folk here to post Bible prophecies that have come true, one at a time preferably, so that they can be properly scrutinized...the mark(ID) of the beast(world governing body), is coming true before your very eyes. credit cards, internet, wireless, cashless society. everyone needs a number to make it in the world; those who don't play by the worlds rules... a life of hardship and penalties. soon it will become mandatory in the interest of global(national) security.

an earthquake as such the world has never seen, nor will ever see again??? pay attention to the data baby.

the spirit of truth(understanding=information=light) has been poured out unto the ends of the earth... internet... and very soon it will be taken away... natural disasters, disruption of the power grid(dependency).:scatter:

[DontBeAfraid]

Uki are you drunk? Your post was not easily readable.

[jeffweeder]

I thought this was a very good article on the events of 1948 and beyond

On April 10, 1948, the Security Council stated: "Armed Arab bands from neighboring Arab lands have infiltrated the territory of Palestine and, together with local Arab forces, are defeating the purpose of the Partition Resolution by acts of violence" . On May 15, 1948, the day when Israel proclaimed her independence, Azzam Pasha of the Arab League announced the "Arab intention to wage a war to the end, a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." May 15, 1948 marked the full-scale invasion of Israel by the regular armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq –– joined by Saudi Arabia and Yemen. (3) Note! The U.N. did absolutely nothing but observe what they thought would be the termination of Israel.

The U.N. had within its body those same nations, in addition to the Europeans, ready and eager to insure Israel had a still-birth. All the Arab nations had pledged that they would attack and occupy the fledgling Jewish State upon her birth. They didn’t wait for the niceties of a legal declaration but were already fighting and killing Jews by 1947. Each of the Arab/Muslim nations’’ leaders had, for international consumption, made numerous speeches describing the joy they would experience while wading in Jewish blood. The major nations of the U.N. knew precisely what the Arab/Muslim nations were saying and what they were capable of doing.

Such nations as France, England, Germany, the Soviet Union, America knew to an exacting number, the manpower, armor, artillery, aircraft of each Arab/Muslim nation. Similarly, they knew exactly what the fledgling Jewish State did NOT have in men, weapons or the funds to purchase new weapons. To compound the weakness of the Jewish State, after the U.N. vote to establish the State, the U.S., France, England, ‘‘et al’’ voted to embargo arms to the combatants in the Middle East.

While the Arab/Muslim states were already well-armed with standing, trained armies, Israel was cut off from even purchasing weapons. Despite this vote to embargo arms to the "combatants" virtually nothing was withheld from the Arab nations. They could add to their already considerable armories with funds in their established treasuries from the very nations who instituted that embargo. Israel had no such treasury and had to rely upon donations from World Jewry. All of this was well known to the U.N. and particularly those who were considered powerful nations. [As a relevant aside, today the nations of Germany, England, France, Norway, Spain and others of the E.U. have again embargoed shipment of spare parts and equipment to Israel –– just as they did in 1948.]

Israel had to scrounge the junkyards of Europe for old World War I and II equipment. Even then, they were charged exorbitant prices for what most nations would consider scrap. There was no doubt in the minds of the United Nations that the "Jewish Problem" which irritated the Arab Muslims would soon be solved. Except for the vote that gave Israel the spark of life, the Jews of Israel understood that they were on their own. No nation would assist or rescue the Jews!
Simultaneously, the Arabs were already partying and celebrating a victory that would return their Pride and self-esteem. As a culture they had not had a military victory since the 12th century when the Kurd, Saladin, had driven the Christian Crusaders from Jerusalem. The twin pillars of Arab/Muslim Pride and Shame which had crumbled to dust over the centuries would at last be rebuilt over the bones of the Jews.

All problems with the Jews would be quickly settled by the 7 invading Arab armies. There would, of course, be no opportunity for rescue –– except for a possible token late arrival of some troops from England, France or America. They would find a handful of Jews left whom they would rescue with great fanfare and self congratulations. The Arab Muslims would have "danced in the blood" of the Jews and reclaimed their trampled manhood –– just as they proclaimed they would do before the 1947 U.N. Vote enabling the State of Israel to be born. No doubt, a Fund would be voted upon in the U.N. to re-settle the few remaining Jews who had survived the massacre and the World would continue its commerce with the Arab/Muslim oil world with scarcely a blip.

But, something happened which startled the World and disrupted their expectations.
When the 7 Arab/Muslim armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen and Saudi Arabia attacked as promised on May 15, 1948, the untrained Jewish remnants from the graveyards of Europe fought back with junk equipment and miraculously beat the combined, vaunted


full article;
http://christianactionforisrael.org/un/stillbirth.html

[uki]

Even thinking of your face brings tears of rage to my eyes. **** you.yeah you are crying and enraged because you know if you'd so much as blink in attempts to harm me i would tear your damn arm off and beat your empty, hollow head so hard that the sound rival any stomp preformance. i'll squash you like the tooth fairy.



Uki are you drunk? Your post was not easily readable.i believe i had a 40 oz of colt 45 double malt when i wrote this last night... but that didn't make me drunk.:alcoholic

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

the mark(ID) of the beast(world governing body), is coming true before your very eyes. credit cards, internet, wireless, cashless society. everyone needs a number to make it in the world; those who don't play by the worlds rules... a life of hardship and penalties. soon it will become mandatory in the interest of global(national) security.
Wrong! The mark of the beast is... brace yourself... uki's beloved DNA!!! You KNOW it to be true!

[uki]

Wrong! The mark of the beast is... brace yourself... uki's beloved DNA!!! You KNOW it to be true!you are right. DNA is our very own genetic ID... the technology is being introduced to have all people stored in a DNA database. you're so intent on proving me wrong that you fail to see that we are complimenting each other.

[PheonixRIsing]

Bill, have you made it your soul mission in life to destroy all belief in the Father, and have everyone turn to the religion of science. You condmen scripture before really looking at it, Scripture is not meant to be read figuratively every time, prophecy is symbolic in nature most of the time, you have to look carefully at its relation. Also, speaking of your "god" Darwin, Darwin himself said this

"to suppose that the eye could be formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."

Now off-topic of evolution, here is some quotes from people AFTER the scriptures were written.

On family:
Thomas Jefferson:"I have always said, and always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will makre better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands

Ulysses S. Grant:"Hold fast to the Bible as the sheet anchor of your liberties; write its precepts in your hearts, and practice them in your lives.

Theodore Roosevelt:"No educated man can afford to be ignorant of the Bible.

Isaac Newton:Worshipping God and the Lamb in the temple: God, for his benefaction in creating all things and the Lamb, for his benefaction in redeeming us with His blood.

William Penn:Those who will not be ruled by God will be ruled by tyrants.

Many of these men agree that to live on any doctrine other than the Fathers is absurd.

[Flynn]

your "god" DarwinFor the last f'n time: PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION DO NOT WORSHIP DARWIN!


"to suppose that the eye could be formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."Guess what, Darwin was WRONG. That's the beauty of science - it's falsifiable. If you present a wrong theory, other scientists will notice and call you out on it so the theory can be refined.


Now off-topic of evolution, here is some quotes from people AFTER the scriptures were written.

On family:

<Bunch of quotes here>

Many of these men agree that to live on any doctrine other than the Fathers is absurd.Those are all people's opinions. I see no reason to believe in something just because Thomas Jefferson did. We should strive to move away from cults of personality. Instead we should each objectively look at the material in question by ourselves and decide if it has merit independently.

[uki]

you are right. DNA is our very own genetic ID... the technology is being introduced to have all people stored in a DNA database. you're so intent on proving me wrong that you fail to see that we are complimenting each other.and as if on f.ucking que; check out todays breaking news!! http://www.postchronicle.com/news/breakingnews/article_21262460.shtml cha-ching. talk about reading minds and thought-forms...

[Sammy56]

Darwin, Darwin himself said this
"to suppose that the eye could be formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."
Ah, but you are taking the quote very much out of context. Read the whole passage.


To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei, as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.


Many of these men agree that to live on any doctrine other than the Fathers is absurd.Just because they were well know and famous for their actions, doesn't make them right when it comes to God. Roosevelt's quote could have more to do with the fact that, if you don't understand the Bible, it is difficult to understand much of the literature that came after it, not because the Bible is perfect but, because for over 1,000 years, great literature made many references and illusions to it's stories. William Penn's quote is ever worse, with black and white logic along the lines of "you are either with us or against us". The world has never been, and probably never will be, black and white.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Bill, have you made it your soul mission in life to destroy all belief in the Father, and have everyone turn to the religion of science. You condmen scripture before really looking at it, Scripture is not meant to be read figuratively every time, prophecy is symbolic in nature most of the time, you have to look carefully at its relation. Also, speaking of your "god" Darwin, Darwin himself said this

"to suppose that the eye could be formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."

Now off-topic of evolution, here is some quotes from people AFTER the scriptures were written.

On family:
Thomas Jefferson:"I have always said, and always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will makre better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands

Ulysses S. Grant:"Hold fast to the Bible as the sheet anchor of your liberties; write its precepts in your hearts, and practice them in your lives.

Theodore Roosevelt:"No educated man can afford to be ignorant of the Bible.

Isaac Newton:Worshipping God and the Lamb in the temple: God, for his benefaction in creating all things and the Lamb, for his benefaction in redeeming us with His blood.

William Penn:Those who will not be ruled by God will be ruled by tyrants.

Many of these men agree that to live on any doctrine other than the Fathers is absurd. "There's a sucker born every minute." - P.T. Barnum

[donniedarko]

With regards to all of those quotes, its was a matter of ethics. Natural law, upon which the entire american constitution is based, relies on the precondition that there be a final arbiter of justice (ie. God). All of those people you quote would be familiar with this concept and IRCC were partial to John Locke and the "natural lawyers". Incidently, Kante removed the requirement for a creator as the final arbiter of morality when he developed his set of ethical precepts that were rooted in logic. Similarily, Mill et al. attempted to redefine the notion of good and bad through the principle of utility. In otherwords, the concept of God as definition of right and wrong is outdated.

As an aside, Sammy hit the nail on the head, quotes out of context are merely propaganda. Proverbs are better.

[Raptor Witness]

[INDENT]I've pretty much HAD it with claims of prophecies from the religious folk here on the forums. When I ask for prophecies, I get bullshit such as "a child will be born to a virgin and she shall call him IMMANUEL" as a "prophecy" for Jesus, even though his name is JESUS, NOT IMMANUEL. So here's an interesting little challenge for everybody to participate in:

Below are a bunch of predictions, or prophecies if you will ...

Speaking of evolution, why not ask yourself the question, what do "humiliation" and a green "nut" all have in common?

[Groundhog Day 2007 - Prophecy] (http://forums.armageddononline.org/showpost.php?p=139671&postcount=4)



February 4th, 2007 12:15 AM

To the snakes that sent her, I have my own message. You'll get your turn whenever I am finished speaking, but not until. You have caused astounding devastation and succeeded in whatever you have put your mind to, but your throne is not immune. "Shall I explain to "the people" the purpose of your humiliation, or can they guess?" Will the shepherds understand what I am doing, or claim that I am you?


http://www.mynaturephotos.com/images/Groundhog1.JPG

Here's your Groundhog with a "nut" in hand.

[MaximumPain]

Dude someone dies every day from weather related events, saying its prophecy is like predicting that some one will take a shit in California. Please….. it truly is complete bullshit. And why do you always speak in riddles trying to read some of your posts makes my eyes glaze over.:bs:

Edit: no one believes that ground hog BS any way.

[PheonixRIsing]

The line between Good and Evil must be drawn out in the sand.
Either you are with God and the Law, or you are on the side of humanistic, thinking, the blind leading the blind,the path to damnation, man cannot be trusted to understand even 1% of what is going on around him.

[PheonixRIsing]

btw the laws of science arent humanistic thinking, they are the laws established by God. I fully endorse scientific study, but to try to compare two unlike elements as to say one does not exist and the other is greater is complete and utter lunacy.

[Cartesiantheater]

The line between Good and Evil must be drawn out in the sand.

Why? The entire universe reflects intermediates between extremes. If God created the universe, and if God is consistent, wouldn't you expect "Good" and "Evil" to have gray areas?



btw the laws of science arent humanistic thinking, they are the laws established by God. I fully endorse scientific study, but to try to compare two unlike elements as to say one does not exist and the other is greater is complete and utter lunacy.

What about when they are utterly OPPOSED?

For example, Christians say the world is ~ six thousand years... science says it is billions...

Are BOTH right?

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Cartesiantheater and thank-you for your medium,

Why? The entire universe reflects intermediates between extremes. If God created the universe, and if God is consistent, wouldn't you expect "Good" and "Evil" to have gray areas?

For Evil to exist then it would have had to come into being and since God is the creator of everything that exists then that would mean that God is evil, this is quite imposssible and thus we have good and the absence of good, which allows good to be made manifest. You can thus see all degrees of good and it's absence within the world of creation.


What about when they are utterly OPPOSED?

When they are completely opposed then it is clear that ignorance exists and only when they are in agreement does the TRUTH prevail.


For example, Christians say the world is ~ six thousand years... science says it is billions...

Are BOTH right?

The truth is that they are both wrong and neither are a great degree closer to the answer than the other but at least a scientist is willing to continue searching to find the truth.

[Cartesiantheater]

The truth is that they are both wrong and neither are a great degree closer to the answer than the other but at least a scientist is willing to continue searching to find the truth.

What evidence do you have that they are BOTH wrong?

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Cartesiantheater and thank-you for your inquiry,

What evidence do you have that they are BOTH wrong?

The evidence that I have is the greatest evidence that there is, it is the Word of God, confirming that which has been written in the past through all of the sacred writings that have been given to mankind, confirmed by scientific evidence and balanced by the laws of science. Testified to by all aspects of creation.

THE UNIVERSAL CYCLES

Question. -- What is the real explanation of the cycles which occur in the world of existence?

Answer. -- Each one of the luminous bodies in this limitless firmament has a cycle of revolution which is of a different duration, and every one revolves in its own orbit, and again begins a new cycle. So the earth, every three hundred and sixty-five days, five hours, forty-eight minutes and a fraction, completes a revolution; and then it begins a new cycle -- that is to say, the first cycle is again renewed. In the same way, for the whole universe, whether for the heavens or for men, there are cycles of great events, of important facts and occurrences. When a cycle is ended, a new cycle begins; and the old one, on account of the great events which take place, is completely forgotten, and not a trace or record of it will remain. As you see, we have no records of twenty thousand years ago, although we have before proved by argument that life on this earth is very ancient. It is not one hundred thousand, or two hundred thousand, or one million or two million years old; it is very ancient, and the ancient records and traces are entirely obliterated.

Each of the Divine Manifestations has likewise a cycle, and during the cycle His laws and commandments prevail and are performed. When His cycle is completed by the appearance of a new Manifestation, a new cycle begins. In this way cycles begin, end and are renewed, until a universal cycle is completed in the world, when important events and great occurrences will take place which entirely 161 efface every trace and every record of the past; then a new universal cycle begins in the world, for this universe has no beginning. We have before stated proofs and evidences concerning this subject; there is no need of repetition.

Briefly, we say a universal cycle in the world of existence signifies a long duration of time, and innumerable and incalculable periods and epochs. In such a cycle the Manifestations appear with splendor in the realm of the visible until a great and supreme Manifestation makes the world the center of His radiance. His appearance causes the world to attain to maturity, and the extension of His cycle is very great. Afterward, other Manifestations will arise under His shadow, Who according to the needs of the time will renew certain commandments relating to material questions and affairs, while remaining under His shadow.

We are in the cycle which began with Adam, and its supreme Manifestation is Bahá'u'lláh. 162

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 158)

REAL PREEXISTENCE

Question. -- How many kinds of preexistence and of phenomena are there?

Answer. -- Some sages and philosophers believe that there are two kinds of preexistence: essential preexistence and preexistence of time. Phenomena are also of two kinds, essential phenomena and that of time.


Essential preexistence is an existence which is not preceded by a cause, but essential phenomena are preceded by causes. Preexistence of time is without beginning, but the phenomena of time have beginnings and endings; for the existence of everything depends upon four causes -- the efficient cause, the matter, the form and the final cause. For example, this chair has a maker who is a carpenter, a substance which is wood, a form which is that of a chair, and a purpose which is that it is to be used as a seat. Therefore, this chair is essentially phenomenal, for it is preceded by a cause, and its existence depends upon causes. This is called the essential and really phenomenal.

Now this world of existence in relation to its maker is a real phenomenon. As the body is sustained by the spirit, it is in relation to the spirit an essential phenomenon. The spirit is independent of the body, and in relation to it the spirit is an essential preexistence. Though the rays are always inseparable from the sun, nevertheless, the sun is preexistent and the rays are phenomenal, for the existence of the rays depends upon that of the sun. But the existence of the sun does not depend upon that of the rays, for the sun is the giver and the rays are the gift. 281

The second proposition is that existence and nonexistence are both relative. If it be said that such a thing came into existence from nonexistence, this does not refer to absolute nonexistence, but means that its former condition in relation to its actual condition was nothingness. For absolute nothingness cannot find existence, as it has not the capacity of existence. Man, like the mineral, is existing; but the existence of the mineral in relation to that of man is nothingness, for when the body of man is annihilated it becomes dust and mineral. But when dust progresses into the human world, and this dead body becomes living, man becomes existing. Though the dust -- that is to say, the mineral -- has existence in its own condition, in relation to man it is nothingness. Both exist, but the existence of dust and mineral, in relation to man, is nonexistence and nothingness; for when man becomes nonexistent, he returns to dust and mineral.

Therefore, though the world of contingency exists, in relation to the existence of God it is nonexistent and nothingness. Man and dust both exist, but how great the difference between the existence of the mineral and that of man! The one in relation to the other is nonexistence. In the same way, the existence of creation in relation to the existence of God is nonexistence. Thus it is evident and clear that although the beings exist, in relation to God and to the Word of God they are nonexistent. This is the beginning and the end of the Word of God, Who says: "I am Alpha and Omega"; for He is the beginning and the end of Bounty. The Creator always had a creation; the rays have always shone and gleamed from the reality of the sun, for without the rays the sun would be opaque darkness. The names and attributes of God require the existence of beings, and the Eternal Bounty does not cease. If it were to, it would be contrary to the perfections of God. 282

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 279)

This is just part of the evidence that is available.

[Brad Smith]

This will obviously turn into a poop-slinging cafeteria. I would like to add an objective position to this thread.

It's not often, but I have to object to Bill's approach to the subject. There's no true comparison of prophecy and prediction. I understand where Bill is coming from by supporting the fact that science can predict arbitrary outcomes based on contemporary technology and knowledge. However, it is never set in stone and people like Bill can accept that. The rate technology was progressing in the 1950s insinuated we'd have already colonized Mars.

Prophecies and predictions aren't the same. I just don't see that they could be compared. They don't walk parallel paths, so how can we truly compare and contrast the two?

Most prophecies are ambiguous predictions based on contemporary knowledge, but with little (mostly NONE) scientific data. Predictions in the field of science are quite the opposite. However, even science predicted things that haven't come true.

Prophecy? Scientific Prediction? In modern times we predict based off what we understand and even scholars are proved wrong. We use sciences such as political and social sciences in order to hypothesize our future. For those who were old enough to acknowledge, look at the Gulf War and its predictions. Compare that with the current war in Iraq. Unfortunately, aside from the few anomalies, it's like tossing a baseball in the air and calling heads or tails. Social science is a coin toss, real science is a little more secure.

To finalize my rant, I think religious prophecies and scientific predictions are on separate boats on different waters.

Well said.

And speaking of 1950s' predicitions, where are my food pills?

The problem is that we're dealing with myths.

The Bible has nothing new in it. Good versus evil. Virgin births. Vengeful gods. Messianic demigods. And prophecies about the end of all things.

It's nothing that different from other religious mythologies.

As many Deists--like myself--say, "God didn't make religion. Man did.

And, as we all know, humans make things that can be used for good or evil. And some of these things are even flawed.

Religious mythologies are no different.

[liberdave]

Religious mythologies are no different.


But is an argument from design not?

[Brad Smith]

I should have mentioned creation myths as well. And flood myths. Just about every culture has a flood myth.

[Brad Smith]

And I found this . . . .
http://talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/mar06.html

[logicpolice]

moved to new thread
The last three called the three woes may contain more detailed predictions of an impending global political view. The first seems to imply an ideology that is akin to our modern day U.N. peace keeping policies. I.E. keeping sovereign nations at arms length, trying to establish peace without imposing any kind of internal rules for human rights or organizational polices. When that fails the second woe brings on an era of mandatory polices possibly leading to an established one-world order. (pardon the pun)