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- - What is god? (http://forums.armageddononline.org/showthread.php?t=349)

I've heard much about how great and perfect god is. But can any of you christians tell me what god is? For him to exist he must be something. There must be something that binds him to our existence. And how is he able to do all the things he has allegedly done?

God is light and in him is no darkness at all..
and
God is spirit

God doesnt have to be anything

Isnt the greatest mystery, that everything and anything came from nothing?

Re: What is GOD?

Don't like threads that one has to die before gaining the knowledge to the question. ;)

Re: What is GOD?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>What is god?[/quote]

Part of the answer to your question is located here: <a href="http://pub7.ezboard.com/fabidingintruthfrm1.showMessage?topicID=18.topic" target="top">Click here</a>.

Re: What is GOD?

Sorry that's very confusing, I don't know what half the words mean <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o"> . For example, this didn't make a lot of sense:

"This professor is as Ha'Mashiyach (Alav ha'shalom) is to humans. Even how Ha'Mashiyach (Alav ha'shalom) is to other messengers (Aleihem ha'shalom) of YHVH (Baruch Hu; Melek ha'olam). Ha'Mashiyach (Alav ha'shalom) is advanced enough to bring down from En Sof, and then bring it to the creation, for the creation can understand complex wisdom. "

Re: What is GOD?

hmmmm that was a problem.

Re: What is GOD?

I see what you mean, Mike, but when you strip the text from all hebrew words, it makes a bit more sense.

As I see it the meaning is something like:
God is compared to Einstein;
Man needs a "mediator" to understand the wisdom of God and his teachings.

This is always the part I hate most: when you ask religious persons something about their religion they look at you with a mixture of pity and disgust, then tell you that you wouldn't understand anyway (being not smart enough) if they'd tell you, so never mind. Yikes!!!!

You can use the same argument, dutchie. ;) I've won most arguments against the arrogant, hard-headed zealots by just using logic against them. It's hilarious because they get so baffled and start stumbling over their words. You know you've won that argument when they just start using the age old excuses "just because", "you wouldn't understand" or start quoting scripture to answer any question thrown at them.

Re: Eye for an eye

Thanx, I'll keep your wise words in mind next time I am grinding my molars...:|

I don't want to answer the question "what is God", because it sounds as if it is referring to a substance.

I can answer "who is God", and this therefore begins to answer the question i.e He is a person.

I don't want to give the impression that I like to appear as if I know all things (technically) about God. Rather, I want you to know that I know Him as a personality. I understand (to a certain level) how he thinks, how he reacts. This is not exclusive to me. Anyone can know Him this way, but not without accepting Jesus.

If you want to understand "who God is" well its all in the Bible isn't it.

Re: God is a person

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>"This professor is as Ha'Mashiyach (Alav ha'shalom) is to humans. Even how Ha'Mashiyach (Alav ha'shalom) is to other messengers (Aleihem ha'shalom) of YHVH (Baruch Hu; Melek ha'olam). Ha'Mashiyach (Alav ha'shalom) is advanced enough to bring down from En Sof, and then bring it to the creation, for the creation can understand complex wisdom. "[/quote]

Okay Mike, I can shed a little light on this. The Mashiyach (English spelling will vary due to hebrew transaltion) is the Jewish Messiah. Unlike Christianity's Messiah, The Mashiyach is not divine but 100% mortal. He's no "Turn the other cheek" kind of guy either. The Mashiyach is supposedly going to be a great politcal and miliatry leader. He will bring Israel's surrounding lands under Jewish rule. Those that won't accept this, will be killed. This part of Jewish belief isn't broadcast outside of the jewish community, for obvious reasons. There are even Jews who don't kknow this. Just like there are Christians that don't fully know the Bible.
The study of Religions and Mythology is an ongoing hobby of mine.;)

Re: God is a person

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I don't want to give the impression that I like to appear as if I know all things (technically) about God. Rather, I want you to know that I know Him as a personality. I understand (to a certain level) how he thinks, how he reacts. This is not exclusive to me. Anyone can know Him this way, but not without accepting Jesus.[/quote]

How exactly do you know how god thinks/reacts? Does he talk to you? Or communicate with you in any way? What makes you think you know god at all?

The only people that I have head of that claim to talk to god are usually committed. So if you're not crazy. How do you know him?

Re: God is a person

Allright, now we know that, I'm still in the dark as to what the hell it means...

God is the Supreme Being. The Hebrew language uses terms for "God" that convey the idea of strength, also of majesty, dignity, and excellence. There are also false gods. Some have set themselves up as gods. Some have been made objects of worship by those who serve them.

Peace,

Paul

Hey welcome to the forums Paul. You've made some very interesting comments.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>God is the Supreme Being. The Hebrew language uses terms for "God" that convey the idea of strength, also of majesty, dignity, and excellence[/quote] This sounds more like trying to define the word 'God' than explaining what God is. Is God anything physical? Does He exist inside or outside our universe? How does he affect our world?

How I know the way God acts/thinks

This is in response to EW,

I believe I know by watching what He has done in my life over the last 17 years and of others who also put their trust in Him. These "ways" of God that I have identified do tie in with the God explained in the Bible.

I also believe that God is spirit. He is invisible and eternal. All that we can see with our eyes is temporary. Most people think that the material side of things is the centre of things, and that spirits (if thought to exist) float around it. This I don't believe is the case. Anything material is a shadow (and subordinate) to the heavenlies.
It is the heavenly (spiritual) plane that is the centre, and the centre of this is........God!

Re: How I know the way God acts/thinks

hmmmm

Do you believe that everything that happens in your life is caused by god? Say someone close to you dies. What does that say about how god feels?

I believe that we are the masters of our own destiny. What occurs in our life can be examined through cause and effect, action and reaction and so on.

I don't deny the existence of a 'spirit world' but I am very skeptical about it.

Re: How I know the way God acts/thinks

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Say someone close to you dies. What does that say about how god feels?[/quote]

They'll probably say that God moves in mysterious ways. My wife says that about me when I had a glass too much...:evil:

Re: How I know the way God acts/thinks

God could be the divine, the light, the innovator, that which is without darkness...

God could be the big bang...

God could be some presence that came about millions of years ago and set life on earth into motion, the solar system into motion, killed the dinosaurs and created man as an ant farm, etc...

God could be some intergalactic bum that stumbled upon Earth, made man and then watched and toyed with man during the days of the arch, set some bushes on fire and helped out Moses, then resurrected some guy who was nailed to a cross just because he liked his style. But then got bored, left and returned to his nomadic ways hence we have seen no miracles since the days of the Old Testament...

The point I am trying to get at is the world is infinite; therefore the number of explanations to explain our existence are also infinite. For every definition listed here, I am sure we could conjure 20,000 more.

I participate in college speech forensics. The FIRST thing we learn as an oppositional team is to never try and guess at how the affirmative will interpret the resolution. The reason is if you can come up with 100 cases they can run, they will come up with case 101. My point being, the bible is man made and therefore just a case...the claims above, same story...29 guesses (even if they represent the most brilliant scholars in the world) are still not good odds in a n infinite universe. I would venture to say God (also perhaps renamed as science) is that which is non-comprehendible by us and so we could never even begin to understand the true "creation story" but then that would only be guess #30 and perhaps guess #31 is the real answer...

Those who are religious need something to hold on to so that they have some sort of meaning or some sort of reason to "be good" in life. I say go ahead, keep your God as long as it will keep you good and keep you from harming me... but then again, I guess looking back to the inquisition, Israel, Palestine and all the other "jihads" of the world, that's not really a good philosophy is it...

Thankyou, Mike! :)

Hebrews chapter 9 verse 24 states: "For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us."

John chapter 4 verse 24 states: "God is a spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.""

Chapter 7 verse 28 of the same book says: "Therefore Jesus cried out as he was teaching in the temple and said: "You both know me and know where I am from. Also, I have not come of my own initiative, but he that sent me is real, and you do not know him.""

1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse 44 states: "It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one."

Psalms chapter 90 verse 2 says: "Before the mountains themselves were born, Or you proceeded to bring forth as with labor pains the earth and the productive land, Even from time indefinite you are God."

Many find this idea put forth in the Scriptures unreasonable, because our minds cannot fully comprehend it. However, this is not a good reason to reject it. Think about the following:

1) Time. No one is able to point to a certain moment as the beginning of time. And yet, when we die, time continues. We die, but time does not. Yet we don't reject the idea of time simply because there are aspects of it which we cannot fully comprehend. Instead, we regulate our lives by it.

2) Space. Astronomers have found no beginning or end to space. The farther we probe into the universe, the more there is. Yet they do not reject what the evidence shows. The evidence shows that space is infinite. These same principles apply to the existence of God.

Here are some other examples to think about.

1) The heat of the sun, according to astronomers, at its core is twenty seven million degrees F (15 million degrees C). We cannot fully comprehend such intense heat, yet do we reject that idea?

2) We are told that the size of the Milky Way, where we exist, is so great that a beam of light traveling at over 186,000 miles per second (300,000 km/sec) would need 100,000 years to cross it. Can our minds truly comprehend such a great distance? We accept it, though, because scientific evidence supports it.

So what is more reasonable? That our universe is the product of a living and intelligent Creator? or that it arose by chance from a nonliving source without intelligent direction? Some believe the latter because to believe otherwise would mean that they would have to acknowledge the existence of a Creator whose qualities they cannot fully comprehend. However, it is well known that scientists do not fully comprehend the functioning of the genes that are within living cells and that determine who these cells will grow. Nor do they fully understand the functioning of the human brain. Yet, no one can deny they exist. Can or should we really expect to understand everything about a Person who is so great that he could bring into existence the universe with all its intricate design and stupendous size?

According to the Scriptures, God exists in heaven, as noted above, in a spirit form, a nonphysical form.

The Hebrew word ru'ach and the Greek pneu'ma, which are often translated "spirit," have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to:

1) Wind

2) The active lifeforce in earthly creatures

3) The impelling force that issues from a person's figurative heart and that causes him to say and do things in a certain way

4) Inspired utterances originating with an invisible source

5) Spirit persons

6) God's active force, or holy spirit.

Many wonder if God cares what happens to us humans. There is evidence that he does.

In the beginning, God gave man a perfect start.

Genesis chapter 1 verse 27 states: "And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God's image he created him; male and female he created them."

Verse 31 of Genesis chapter 1 says: "After that God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day."

Deuteronomy chapter 32 verse 4 states: "The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he."

Man's continued enjoyment of God's favor was dependent upon obedience to his Maker

Genesis chapter 2 verses 16 and 17 state: "And God also laid this command upon the man: "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.""

If man had remained obedient to God he would have continued enjoying perfect human life without sickness, suffering or death. The Creator would have provided man with the guidance he needed and would have used His power to keep man safe from calamity. Man rejected God's guidance and chose the course of self-rule. Man was not designed for this, and has brought calamity upon himself.

Jeremiah chapter 10 verse 23 says: "I well know, O God, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."

Ecclesiastes chapter 8 verse 9 says: "All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his injury."

Romans chapter 5 verse 12 states: "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned------."

Despite this, over the centuries God has patiently sought out those who based on their love for him and his ways, are willing to serve him. He has given us all the opportunity to enjoy all the blessings of which we have been deprived because of our imperfection and misrule.

Revelation chapter 21 verses 3 through 5 states: "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away." And the one seated on the throne said: "Look! I am making all things new." Also, he says: "Write, because these words are faithful and true.""

God provided for us, through his Son, a redemption from sin and death. This is wonderful evidence of God's great love for mankind.

John chapter 3 verse 16 says: ""For God loved the world so much that he gave his onlybegotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.""

There is an appointed time when God will destroy those ruining the earth and will cause the lovers of righteousness to enjoy life in harmony with his original purpose.

Revelation chapter 11 verse 18 states: "But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give their reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.""

Psalms chapter 37 verses 10 and 11 state: "And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

Some further insight into God is found at John chapter 16 verse 27 which states: "For the Father himself has affection for you, because you have had affection for me and have believed that I came out as the Father's representative."

Isaiah chapter 63 verse 9 says: "During all their distress it was distressing to him. And his own personal messenger saved them. In his love and in his compassion he himself repurchased them, and he proceeded to lift them up and carry them all the days of long ago."

1 Timothy chapter 1 verse 11 says: "according to the glorious good news of the happy God, with which I was entrusted."

These Scriptures show us that God does have feelings, very similar to humans.

Peace,

Paul

Thanks, very interesting reading.

Persuading a scientist to believe what he can't understand is always going to be difficult. But it is a good point that there is lots in the world that is true that we don't understand. I am inclined to believe in God, though not the Christian one.

Why would this God create a world? Why would he allow evil? If he does have a personality (feeling anger, jealosy etc), how can he be perfect? Why should God care about us?

Most Christians tend to hide behind the idea that we can't understand God so there is no point asking these questions. But if we don't try, how can we know what to believe?

You're welcome! I'm glad you think so!

Why God created the world can only be speculated. Perhaps due to his love, he wanted to create a world of people who would love him and his spirit sons back.

The reason he allows evil is because Satan raised serious issues.

These were:

1) God's right to rule and whether he was correct in what he told his creations. Satan claimed God was withholding freedom from mankind that would contribute to mankind's happiness. He also claimed that man did not need God, and that man could govern himself successfully and that man did not need to obey God in order to survive as individuals and as a race. Satan also claimed God had been dishonest in giving a law that stated disobedience would result in mankind's death.

This is all backed up by Genesis chapter 2 verses 16 and 17 and chapter 3 verses 3 through 5.

The primary issue raised was God's right to rule.

The next issue that was raised was:

2) The integrity of God's intelligent creations to God.

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God it raised the question of whether God's servants served him out of love or whether they would all abandon him to follow Satan's lead. Satan developed this issue further in the days of Job. You can find this in Genesis chapter 3 verse 6; Job chapter 1 verses 8 through 11 and chapter 2 verses 3 through 5, and also Luke chapter 22 verse 31.

If God had merely executed the rebels and restored things to the paradise conditions in which they began, the issues would have gone unresolved.

God had nothing to prove to himself. He didn't want these issues ever disrupting the peace and well-being of the universe again, so he has allowed ample time for them to be settled beyond any doubt. The deaths of Adam and Eve was proof that disobedience to God resulted in death. We can see this in Genesis chapter 5 verse 5.

There was more at issue, however. God has permitted Satan and humans to try every form of government of their own making. None have brought lasting happiness. God has let mankind go to the limit in pursuing ways of life that ignore his "mark," or standards. We can see the results today.

As it says in Jeremiah chapter 10 verse 23, it does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.

God has also given his servants time to prove their loyalty to him by their acts of loving obedience, despite the enticements and persecution they experience, brought on by Satan. In Proverbs chapter 27 verse 11 it states: "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me."

Those who are faithful will reap great benefits now and have the prospect of eternal perfect life in the future. This life will be used doing the will of God, whose personality and ways they truly love.

The thought of perfection is expressed through Hebrew terms drawn from such verbs as ka-lal' (perfect), sha-lam' (come to completion) and ta-nam' (be completed, come to perfection). In the Christian Greek Scriptures the words te'lei-os (an adjective), te-lei-o'tes (a noun), and te-lei-o'o (a verb) are used similarly, conveying such ideas as bringing to completeness or full measure, being full grown, adult, or mature, having attained the appropriate or appointed end, purpose, or goal.

Everything called "perfect" in the Bible is not so in an absolute sense, or to an infinite degree, without limitation. The Creator is the only one distinguished with this kind of perfection. Christ even claimed that no one is good except for one, God. We were made in God's image, with the ability to think, reason, and FEEL. Emotions are a part of God's make up and is shown to be clearly in the Scriptures.

Nothing wrong with asking questions, Mike!

Peace,

Paul

Paul, I did it, I read your entire post - not only this one, but also the one on the previous page. They all make perfect sense and from it speaks a spirit of true faith and love towards your God, no I mean it!

As I said, I read all of it and there is just one question that leaps to mind.

Why?

Why DOESN't God change our state to one of perfect happiness during our LIVES, but only AFTER we die?? When we're dead and we arrive in heaven, what kind of beings will we be then? Will we STILL have a free will to do what WE want, will we still have a choice i.e. to think "impure" thoughts??
And if not - why are we then interesting to God?? What the pleasure in filling heaven with mindless bots for the rest of eternity?? Why doesn't God promote us to Superhappiness while we're alive AND INTERESTING???

There was absolutely no sarcasm intended in this post...

God's Purpose....

What is it?
Why does he apparently exist?
Why has he created us?
Why is he so concerned that we worship him?
If he is perfect, why did he feel the need to create us?
If he is all powerful and satan defies him..... why not get rid of satan?

I have the feeling this will cause a series of very long posts. :(

Re: God's Purpose....

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I have the feeling this will cause a series of very long posts.[/quote]

Yeah, but I was here FIRST!:evil:

Re: God's Purpose....

Paul, like Dutchie, I haven’t read your entire posts either but I have noticed one trend. They all seem to be heavily laden with quotes form the bible as evidence.

Now the question is, how can you use quotes from a story book or mythological reader as fact? This is not to slander the bible but any theologian looking at any other reading with the same origin and merits as the bible would same the same thing of any book that is not the bible.

If bewilders me because faith will always look beyond empirical evidence because the bible says otherwise. I mean lets look at the origins of your evidence.

In a society know to pass tradition and stories orally, the bible was written many years after the events within actually happened. Now I know we have all played telephone as a kid and it becomes plain to see that perhaps a guy who found a fish and maybe a little grain today is that same guy who made manna fall from the sky and magically whisked one basket of fish and bread into hundreds...

In addition, when questioned, the theologist will tell you the bible was written with divine inspiration. Now tell me this, if someone today, wrote a book of stories and magical tales, then within this book also laid down some rules and prophecies; what section in Barnes & Nobles do you think you would find this book? If he claimed he was divinely inspired, would you believe him? If he was adamant about it, do you think maybe we would institutionalize him? If he were able do gather followers, do you think maybe we would call it a cult?

The point being, the hinge of all your arguments falls upon the bible, evidence which has no solid standing other then the fact that a millions of others choose to have faith in it. It is hard to convince a panel that things happen because of god when your arguments are based upon a fictional doctrine (or at least fictional in the eyes of those you are trying to convince). Ya know, at one time we thought the Earth was flat and the Sun revolved around it...

Accuracy of the bible

Many scholars have gone out to disprove the bible.

It has resulted in them being convinced of its accuracy.

Most of us are not in a position to spent time and effort to this cause.

I have looked into this heavily in the past, sufficient to convince me. If any do dispute it's accuracy, then look into it.

But I truly believe that even if you are convinced of its accuracy, it will not increase your faith. Faith can come only one way, by drawing close to the living God through prayer and reading the bible. That's why I spend little effort looking into historical evidence these days but spent much effort in prayer.

Re: Accuracy of the bible

Yes, but will someone answer my questions, now????

Answer to questions

You asked, so here goes.

1. Satan was Gods worship leader in heaven. It is thought parts of his body were/are musical instruments.

2. He wanted the big slot. God for some reason wasn't too happy about that.

3. Satan was thrown out of heaven with a third of the angels.

4. God sought a replacement.

5. He formed man in his image, to worship Him and share companionship.

We do not need to wait until heaven to begin this ministry/purpose in our lives. We CAN perform this now, on earth. God, like us, desires companionship. I believe Gods heart is in such sorrow for the way most of his creation has turned their backs on him. The level to which he is prepared to go to for our hearts is shown by the cross.

In heaven, we still will have free will. It is no wonder then that God will only allow those into His eternal kingdom that are trustworthy true and devoted to Him.

I don't think however that the issue of sin will arise, since in eternity we will be so close to God.

Re: Accuracy of the bible

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Many scholars have gone out to disprove the bible. It has resulted in them being convinced of its accuracy.[/quote]

Wait just one minute there!:cool:

You mean to tell me scholars have gone out and proved there are bushes that combust AND talk on their own?8o

There are entities on mountain tops that pass down stone tablets to those wwho stand there and wait?8o

They have proved that there really was a man who could turn wine to blood, make cure lepers with a touch and yet another man who can part seas, turn sticks into snakes, and make manna fall from the heavens?8o

There was a time inwhich there were too many sinners and as a result it rained brimstone and sulfer?8o

Scholars have proven there was a garden of eden and a snake that tempted the first lady of creation to eat a forbidden fruit?8o

They have in fact found that there was a mystical creature that floated through Egypt and killed all the first borns?8o

Scholars have in fact proven the world was built in 6 days and pulled up a chair to rest for the 7th?8o

Care to reconsider your comment, or should I go on?

Re: Accuracy of the bible

why must you be so concerned with the afterlife?

What I cannot see is what has convinced you to believe in god. Or do you just believe in everything you are told?

Re: Accuracy of the bible

To whom are you directing this post??

Accuracy of the bible

This was addressed to Diggler D.

Re: Accuracy of the bible

my question was directed to anyone that believes in god.

why must you be so concerned with the afterlife

Well will I do the math 80 years in this life will affect forever after this life. I am not ruining my present life
to get to heaven. I'm living today & forever with Christ..

Re: why must you be so concerned with the afterlife

To do the math properly, you'd have to include the probability of a perfect afterlife existing. I don't see any reason at all why it is certain.

Hi Dutchie,

Thanks for reading the posts and for the kind comments! :)

Your questions are all very good ones and raise a number of topics within them.

First off, I believe it would be appropriate for me to address the topic of death as it is taught in the Scriptures. Death is the cessation of all functions of life. After breathing, heartbeat, and brain activity stop, the life-force gradually ceases to function in body cells. Death is merely the opposite of life.

In Genesis chapter 3 verse 19 it says: "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.""

Ecclesiastes chapter 9 verse 10 states: "All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She'ol, the place to which you are going."

Sheol is also translated as "the grave," and "the world of the dead."

In the same book of Ecclesiastes, same chapter, verse 5 it says: "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten."

Psalms chapter 146 verse 4 states: "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish."

"Thoughts" is also translated as "all his thinking" and also as "plans."

John chapter 11 verses 11 through 14 state: "He said these things, and after this he said to them: "Laz'a-rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep." Therefore the disciples said to him: "Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well." Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. At that time, therefore, Jesus said to them outspokenly: "Laz'a-rus has died,""

Psalms chapter 13 verse 3 states: "Do look upon me; answer me, O God my God. Do make my eyes shine, that I may not fall asleep in death,"

Ezekiel chapter 18 verse 4 states: "Look! All the souls-----to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son---to me they belong. The soul that is sinning-------it itself will die."

The word "soul" is also translated as "life," and as "man," and also as "person."

Isaiah chapter 53 verse 12 states: "For that reason I shall deal him a portion among the many, and it will be with the mighty ones that he will apportion the spoil, due to the fact that he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with the transgressors that he was counted in; and he himself carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose."

Matthew chapter 26 verse 38 states: "Then he said to them: "My soul is deeply grieved, even to death. Stay here and keep on the watch with me.""

As far as what we have experienced in our own lives and all through the history of mankind, all humans die.

However, we are given a promise in Revelation chapter 21 verses 3 and 4: "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.""

Isaiah chapter 25 verse 8 states: "He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord God will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for God himself has spoken it."

So the Scriptures teach that there will come a time in the lives of humans when death will be swallowed up, taken away, by God.

In the meantime, when we die, we rest, or sleep, according to the Scriptures.

This brings us to the question of heaven.

Heaven is the dwelling place of God and of the spirit creatures who are faithful to him. Heaven is a realm invisible to human eyes. The word "heavens" is also used in various ways in the Scriptures to mean other things as well. For example, "heavens" can represent God himself, his organization of faithful spirit creatures, a position of divine favor, the physical universe separate from the earth, the expanse surrounding the planet Earth, human governments under the dominion of Satan, and also can represent the righteous new heavenly government in which Jesus Christ with his joint heirs are empowered by God to rule.

Acts chapter 2 verse 34 states: "Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, 'God said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand,""

David was referred to in the Bible as being "a man agreeable to God's heart." Yet, he did not go to heaven.

Matthew chapter 11 verse 11 says: "Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is."

This shows that John the Baptist did not go to heaven when he died. Even the lesser one in the heavens was greater than John the Baptist.

Psalms chapter 37 verse 9 states: "For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in God are the ones that will possess the earth."

verse 11 of the same book and chapter says: "But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

and verse 29 of the same states: "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it."

This shows we are destined to live upon the earth.

John chapter 14 verses 2 and 3 states: "In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be."

Here, Jesus shows that his faithful apostles, whom he was speaking to, would, in time, be in his Father's "house," in heaven, with Jesus. He does not say here, however, how many others would also go to heaven.

John chapter 1 verses 12 and 13 states: "However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God's children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man's will, but from God."

Here the "him" is referring to Jesus. Notice that verse 11 says: "He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in." Jesus' "own people" were the Jews. Those that received him when he came in the first century became God's children, with heavenly life in view. Notice the verbs in this verse are used in the past tense, therefore, this passage is not referring to all people who have become Christians since Jesus came, just those of his own people who received him at that time.

Romans chapter 8 verse 14 says: "For all who are led by God's spirit, these are God's sons"

verses 16 and 17 of the same book and chapter says: "The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together."

At the time of this writing, all who were led by God's spirit were God's sons whose hope was that they would be glorified with Christ. This, however, had not always been true. Nor would it always be true.

Luke chapter 1 verse 15 says: "for he will be great before God. But he must drink no wine and strong drink at all, and he will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother's womb;"

This shows that John the Baptizer would be filled with holy spirit. However, Matthew chapter 11 verse 11 quoted above, shows that he would not share in the glory of the heavenly Kingdom. There are heirs of the heavenly Kingdom, gathered over time, and there have been, are and will be followers of God and his Son who will not share in the heavenly glory.

Luke chapter 12 verse 32 states: ""Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.""

Revelation chapter 14 verses 1 through 3 says: "And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a loud sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth."

"The Lamb" is Jesus Christ.

"Mount Zion" is in heaven.

Hebrews chapter 12 verses 22 through 24 states: "But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abel's blood."

After mentioning this definite number of 144,000, Revelation chapter 7 verse 9 says: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."

If this number were not a literal one, it would lack meaning as a contrast to the "great crowd."

Matthew chapter 22 verse 14 states: ""For there are many invited, but few chosen.""

This was Jesus statement regarding the Kingdom of the heavens, which agrees with this number being literal.

Revelation chapter 7 verse 9 is quoted above, verse 10 goes on to say: "And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.""

Revelation chapter 14 verses 1 through 3 is also quoted above, and we see here that in contrast to the 144,000, the "great crowd" are not "bought from the earth" to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion. The "great crowd" are his followers on earth.

It describes the "great crowd" as standing before the throne and the Lamb, which doesn't necessarily indicate a location, but rather an approved condition.

Revelation chapter 6 verse 17 states: "because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

In Luke chapter 21 verse 36 it says: "Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man.""

The expression "before the throne," in Greek is e-no'pi-on tou thro'nou, which means literally "in sight of the throne." This does not require that the "great crowd" be in heaven. Their position is simply "in sight" of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men.

Psalms chapter 11 verse 4 states: "God is in his holy temple. God---in the heavens is his throne. His own eyes behold, his own beaming eyes examine the sons of men."

Matthew chapter 25 verses 31 through 33 states: ""When the Son of man arrives in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left."

Luke chapter 1 verses 74 and 75 says: "to grant us, after we have been rescued from the hands of enemies, the privelege of fearlessly rendering sacred service to him with loyalty and righteousness before him all our days."

Acts chapter 10 verse 33 says: "Therefore I at once sent to you, and you did well in coming here. And so at this time we are all present before God to hear all the things you have been commanded by God to say.""

As you can see, being before God does not always mean literally being before God.

Revelation chapter 19 verse 1 says: "After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: "Praise Jah, you people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God,""

verse 6 of the same book and chapter says: "And I heard what was as a voice of a great crowd and as a sound of many waters and as a sound of heavy thunders. They said: "Praise Jah, you people, because God our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king.""

Revelation chapter 7 verse 9 is quoted above.

The "great crowd in heaven" is not the same as the "great crowd" in Revelation chapter 7 verse 9.

The "great crowd in heaven" are not described as being "out of all nations" or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb. The "great crowd in heaven" are angels. This expression "great crowd" is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.

Mark chapter 5 verse 24 states: "At that he went off with him. And a great crowd was following him and pressing against him."

chapter 6 verse 34 of the same book says: "Well, on getting out, he saw a great crowd, but he was moved with pity for them, because they were as sheep without a shepherd. And he started to teach them many things."

and chapter 12 verse 37 of the same book again says: "David himself calls him 'Lord,' but how does it come that he is his son?" And the great crowd was listening to him with pleasure."

So as the Scriptures teach, only a limited number of humans enter heaven. The earth was made for mankind by God. His purpose was for us to live a life of happiness and joy on a beautiful earth for eternity. His purpose was not thwarted by his evil adversary. He still intends to bring about his purpose, his will, his word.

One common misconception is that of "perfection," and "free will."

Perfect creatures created by God are capable of becoming disobedient. The fact is that God's intelligent creatures are granted free moral agency, the privelege and responsibility of making a personal decision as to the course they will take.

Deuteronomy chapter 30 verses 19 and 20 states: "I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving God your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for his is your life and the length of your days, that you may dwell upon the ground that God swore to your forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to give to them.""

Joshua chapter 24 verse 15 says: "Now if it is bad in your eyes to serve God, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve, whether the gods that your forefathers who were on the other side of the River served or the gods of the Am'or-ites in whose land you are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we shall serve God.""

It is evident that this was the case with the first pair, so that their devotion to God could be subject to test.

Genesis chapter 2 verses 15 through 17 states: "And God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E'den to cultivate it and to take care of it. And God also laid this command upon the man: "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."

Chapter 3 verses 2 and 3 of the same book says: "At this the woman said to the serpent: "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for eating of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die.'""

God made the first human pair, knowing what he wanted of them. The Scriptures make it clear that he wanted, not an automatic, virtually mechanical obedience, but worship and service that sprang from hearts and minds motivated by genuine love.

Deuteronomy chapter 30 verses 15 and 16 says: ""See, I do put before you today life and good, and death and bad. If you will listen to the commandments of God your God, to walk in his ways and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judicial decisions, then you will be bound to keep alive and to multiply, and God your God must bless you in the land to which you are going to take possession of it."

1 Chronicles chapter 28 verse 9 says: ""And you, Sol'o-mon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a complete heart and with a delightful soul; for all hearts God is searching, and every inclination of the thoughts he is discerning. If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will cast you off forever."

chapter 29 verse 17 of the same book states: "And I well know, O my God, that you are an examiner of the heart, and that it is in rectitude that you take pleasure. I, for my part, in the uprightness of my heart have voluntarily offered all these things, and now your people who are on hand here I have enjoyed seeing make offerings voluntarily to you."

John chapter 4 verses 23 and 24 says: "Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.""

If Adam and Eve had lacked the ability to choose in this matter, they would not have met God's requirements; they wouldn't have been complete, perfect, according to his standards.

Perfection as it relates to humans is a relative perfection, limited to the human sphere. Though created perfect, Adam could not go beyond the limits assigned him by his Creator; he could not eat dirt, gravel, or wood without suffering ill effects. If he tried to breathe water instead of air, he would drown. Similarly, if he allowed his mind and heart to feed on wrong thoughts, this would lead to entertaining wrong desires and finally bring on sin and death.

James chapter 1 verses 14 and 15 state: "But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death."

Genesis chapter 1 verse 29 says: "And God went on to say: "Here I have given to you all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To you let it serve as food."

Matthew chapter 4 verse 4 states: "But in reply he said: "It is written, 'Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through God's mouth.'""

It is evident that as creatures created by God, our individual will and choice are determining factors. If we were to insist that a perfect man could not take a wrong course where a moral issue was involved, should we not also logically argue that an imperfect creature could not take a right course where such moral issue were involved? Yet some imperfect creatures do take a right course on moral issues involving obedience to God, even choosing to suffer persecution rather than change from such a course. At the same time, others deliberately engage in doing what they know is wrong. So, not all wrong actions can be excused by human imperfection. The individual's will and choice are determining factors. Human perfection alone would not guarantee right action by Adam, but, rather, the exercise of his own free will and choice as motivated by love for his God and for what was right.

Proverbs chapter 4 verse 23 says: "More than all else that is to be guarded, safeguard your heart, for out of it are the sources of life."

Many pray the words of Matthew chapter 6 verse 10: "Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth."

This shows that this planet is to experience the full force and effect of the execution of God's purposes. This wicked system is under the control of Satan, and will be destroyed. All faults and defects will be removed from survivors who continue obediently to demonstrate faith, so that what remains meets God's standards of excellence, completeness, and soundness. This will include perfection of earthly conditions and of human creatures.

Revelation chapter 5 verses 9 and 10 says: "And they sing a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.""

Revelation chapter 14 verse 1 is quoted above, referring to those bought from the earth to rule as kings over the earth in heaven with Christ. This is the 144,000 bought from the earth.

If you read over Leviticus chapters 13 through 15 you will see that the priests had the duty to represent persons before God, under the Law covenant, and were also charged with guarding the physical health of the nation, officiated in cleansing those who were defiled, and judging when healing had taken place in cases of leprosy. Even more, the priesthood was responsible to aid in the mental and spiritual uplifting and health of the people.

Deuteronomy chapter 17 verses 8 through 13 says: "In case a matter for judicial decision should be too extraordinary for you, one in which blood has been shed, in which a legal claim has been raised, or a violent deed has been committed, matters of dispute, inside your gates, you must also rise and go up to the place that God your God will choose, and you must go to the priests, the Levites, and to the judge who will be acting in those days, and you must make inquiry, and they must hand down to you from that place which God will choose; and you must be careful to do according to all that they instruct you. In accordance with the law that they will point out to you, and according to the judicial decision that they will say to you, you should do. You must not turn aside from the word that they will hand down to you, to the right or to the left. And the man who will behave with presumptuousness in not listening to the priest who is standing to minister there to God you God or to the judge, that man must die; and you must clear out what is bad from Israel. And all the people will hear and become afraid, and they will not act presumptuously anymore."

Malachi chapter 2 verse 7 says: "For the lips of a priest are the ones that should keep knowledge, and the law is what people should seek from his mouth; for he is the messenger of God of armies."

Hebrews chapter 10 verse 1 states: "For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, men can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect."

The Law contained "a shadow of the good things to come," so also the heavenly priesthood under Jesus Christ during his thousand year reign will perform similar work.

Revelation chapter 20 verses 4 through 6 say: "And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshipped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. and they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years."

Revelation chapter 21 verses 1 and 2 says: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Verses 3 and 4 are quoted above.

Verse 5 of the same chapter and books says: "And the One seated on the throne said: "Look! I am making all things new." Also, he says: "Write, because these words are faithful and true.""

This shows that once mankind is redeemed he will experience the removal of tears, mourning, outcry, pain and death. It is a guarantee of the prophetic picture of Revelation. Adam brought sin, then suffering and death into the human race.

Romans chapter 5 verse 12 says: "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned------"

Tears, mourning, outcry, pain and death are the former things to be taken away. Sin brings death. Death is the last enemy of Christ's Kingdom.

Romans chapter 6 verse 23 says: "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord."

1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse 25 and 26 says: "For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing."

And verse 56 of the same chapter and book states: "The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law."

Obedient mankind will return to the perfect state originally enjoyed by man at the beginning of the human history in Eden. Humans will be able to enjoy not only perfection as to faith and love but perfection as to sinlessness. They will measure up fully and faultlessly to God's righteous standards for humans.

Revelation chapter 21 verses 1 through 5 is a prophecy which relates to the Thousand Year Reign of Christ. The "New Jerusalem" "coming down out of heaven" is linked with the removal of mankind's afflictions. This "New Jerusalem" is Christ's "bride" or glorified congregation. It is to be composed of the royal priesthood of Christ's Millennial Rule.

Revelation chapter 21 verses 9 and 10 states: "And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls which were full of the seven last plagues, and he spoke with me and said: "Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God"

Ephesians chapter 5 verses 25 through 32 states: "Husbands, continue loving your wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation and delivered up himself for it, cleansing it with the bath of water by means of the word, that he might present the congregation to himself in its splendor, not having a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish. In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself, for no man ever hated his own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it, as the Christ also does the congregation, because we are members of his body. "For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation."

1 Peter chapter 2 verse 9 says: "But you are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies" of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

Revelation chapter 20 verses 4 through 6 is quoted above.

Mankind's perfection will be relative, limited to the human sphere. Those who gain it will enjoy earthly life to the fullest degree possible.

Psalms chapter 16 verse 11 states: "You will cause me to know the path of life. Rejoicing to satisfaction is with your face; There is pleasantness at your right hand forever."

Revelation chapter 21 verse 3 is quoted above.

Psalms chapter 15 verses 1 through 3 states: "O God, who will be a guest in your tent? Who will reside in your holy mountain? He who is walking faultlessly and practicing righteousness And speaking the truth in his heart. He has not slandered with his tongue. To his companion he has done nothing bad, And no reproach has he taken up against his intimate acquaintance."

chapter 27 verses 4 and 5 of the same book says: "One thing I have asked from God--- It is what I shall look for, That I may dwell in the house of God all the days of my life, To behold the pleasantness of God And to look upon his temple. For he will hide me in his covert in the day of calamity; He will conceal me in the secret place of his tent; High on a rock he will put me."

chapter 61 verse 4 of the same book again, says: "I will be a guest in your tent for times indefinite; I will take refuge in the concealment of your wings."

Isaiah chapter 66 verse 23 states: ""And it will certainly occur that from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath all flesh will come in to bow down before me," God has said.

Perfection will not mean an end to variety. Many assume that it will. The animal kingdom, a product of God's 'perfect activity,' contains enormous variety.

Genesis chapter 1 verses 20 through 24 says: "And God went on to say: "Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls and let flying creatures fly over the earth upon the face of the expanse of the heavens." And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind. And God got to see that it was good. With that God blessed them, saying: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the waters in the sea basins, and let the flying creatures become many in the earth." And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a fifth day. And God went on to say: "Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind." And it came to be so."

Deuteronomy chapter 32 verse 4 says: "The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he."

Perfection of the planet Earth is not incompatible with variety, change, or contrast either. There is the simple, and the complex, the plain and the fancy, the sour and sweet, the rough and smooth, meadows, woods, mountains and valleys. The stimulating freshness of spring, early warmth of summer, azure blue skies, lovely autumn colors, and the pure beaty of freshly fallen snow are all included in the variety of perfection.

Genesis chapter 8 verse 22 says: "For all the days the earth continues, seed sowing and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, will never cease."

As perfect humans we will not be stereotypes of identical personality, talents and abilities. This is not the meaning of perfection.

At least, this is what is taught in the Scriptures.

I hope I have provide better answers for you than "it is the mystery of God."

Peace,

Paul

wow paul, thats a lot of typing 8o

Yeah Paul is good for lengthy posts. At first glance I thought maybe he was using cut & paste but when you read through the post, its evident that he's actually replying.