Why 'knowing God' is a ridiculous claim.

**Havoc Angel** · May 14th, 2007 7:29 AM

Religions claim that they know of God and know the will of God as mentioned in their holy texts. I consider this claim to be laughable.

To be the creator of existence (and being omniscient and -potent) God would need a scope that is at least equal in size to the universe. Wether such a being does or does not exist is irrelevant in this argument. The point is going in the other direction.

The volume of mankind is here estimated to be 6.5 x 10^5 km³.
The volume of the visible area of the universe is here estimated to be 1.685 x 10^72 km³.

This means that the universe is around 10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 times larger than the whole of mankind. God is even greater than this.

How could possibly a single human being or the whole of humanity begin to grasp a being that is at least 10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 times larger? Now people claim to know God and to know the what this god wants and what this god did and so on. How much more arrogant can you possibly get?

A god, if one exists, is far beyond the grasp of man. Claiming otherwise is delusional. Man just doesn't have enough braincells for this.

Now did this make enough sense?

================================================== =========

Calculations and used rough stats:

Amount of men: 6.5 x 10^9 people
Average mass used for simplicity: 100 kg
Density used for simplicity: 1.00 kg/dm³
Diameter of the Visible Universe: 78 x 10^9 ly
1 lightyear = 9.460 x 10^12 km

V(Mankind)= 6.5x0.1x10^9=6.5x10^8 m³ = 6.5x10^5km³

V(VUniverse)= 4/3 Pi x r³ = 4/3 x 3.1415 x (7.38)³ x (10^23)³ = 4,189 x 401,95 x 10^69 km³ = 1,684 x 10^72 km³

Difference in power approx. 10^67

***jeffweeder*** · May 14th, 2007 8:36 AM

Religions claim that they know of God and know the will of God as mentioned in their holy texts. I consider this claim to be laughable.

Well a lot --a great deal of it is, so we agree that God would have to show himself to us -for us to know him right?

Personnaly i believe he has done it.
He set up the hebrew strain of mankind and supposedly set up his oracles to us through this medium-Jewish history, better known as the Bible.

If one reads all the religous texts claiming to know God and speak for God, then the Bible wins hands down.
It follows and prophecies about this particular people--this particular part of the globe being Palestine/Israel, it paints a very accurate pic of what would become of these people, and portrays them as a center piece for an end time Armageddon.

Its a very valid and real scenario , even to this Generation.

**Havoc Angel** · May 14th, 2007 8:50 AM

Did you even try to grasp the difference in dimensions?

***jeffweeder*** · May 14th, 2007 9:14 AM

Religions claim that they know of God and know the will of God as mentioned in their holy texts. I consider this claim to be laughable.

Well a lot --a great deal of it is, so we agree that God would have to show himself to us -for us to know him right?

Personnaly i believe he has done it.Right from the earliest point of recorded history----very testable, dont you think?-

He set up the hebrew strain of mankind and supposedly set up his oracles to us through this medium-Jewish history, better known as the Bible. Ancient with a forecast of effecting modern times.

If one reads all the religous texts claiming to know God and speak for God, then the Bible wins hands down.
It follows and prophecies about this particular people--this particular part of the globe being Palestine/Israel, it paints a very accurate pic of what would become of these people, --what did become of them, and what will become of them--- and portrays them as a center piece for an end time Armageddon by reclaiming ancient territory---Its happened /happening

Its still valid , its making an enormous impact in world affairs, no other religous claim of the real God comes within a bulls roar, as this race of peoples history called the Jews/Israel-with an offshoot called the Church...
Both have been corrupted down through the ages, but the documentation is there well before either came into existance.-incredible.
I dont think it can be dismissed with any ease, whether you agree with its principles or not.

***jeffweeder*** · May 14th, 2007 9:23 AM

how did that happen,
anyway Havoc my point is that God ,if he wants to be known, is going to have to initialise it.
This is why he chose this people, to comminicate that......and it seems to be still valid

**Havoc Angel** · May 14th, 2007 9:51 AM

And why do you think god bothers to try to explain himself to a insignificant part of his creation of which he knows is 10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 times too small to grasp him? Doesn't this sound futile to you?

**grendel 13** · May 14th, 2007 9:51 AM

oh please. after seeing how wonderful we have made the earth in our very very short time on this ball of dirt, it doesn't take a genious to see that humans are the last group to be trusted with "god's message." why any creature, let alone the most powerful being in existence, would want humans to be the vessels of it's message is beyond me. so if god really has spoken to a certain few, i ask this: do you listen to the homeless guy on the street who's spouting that he's talking to god? i mean you should, you listen to some ancient book and say that it is god speaking, so how is this any different?

***Harry61*** · May 14th, 2007 7:44 PM

Originally Posted by grendel 13

oh please. after seeing how wonderful we have made the earth in our very very short time on this ball of dirt, it doesn't take a genious to see that humans are the last group to be trusted with "god's message." why any creature, let alone the most powerful being in existence, would want humans to be the vessels of it's message is beyond me. so if god really has spoken to a certain few, i ask this: do you listen to the homeless guy on the street who's spouting that he's talking to god? i mean you should, you listen to some ancient book and say that it is god speaking, so how is this any different?

Whoa, so true. Exactly which book is it that is true? As you pointed out it could be any one of the books including the homeless guy.

Let's look at the books book in general.

Bible
Quran (sp)
Budist book (I don't know what it is called)
Scientology (do they have a book?)
Morman
Freemansons
The Homeless guys book.
Gene Simons

Why a book to follow?

Just curious.

**Cartesiantheater** · May 14th, 2007 9:04 PM

Originally Posted by Havoc Angel

================================================== =========

Calculations and used rough stats:

V(Mankind)= 6.5x0.1x10^9=6.5x10^8 m³ = 6.5x10^5km³

V(VUniverse)= 4/3 Pi x r³ = 4/3 x 3.1415 x (7.38)³ x (10^23)³ = 4,189 x 401,95 x 10^69 km³ = [B]1,684 x 10^72 km³

Difference in power approx. 10^67

Aren't you kind of making a bold assumption yourself here? That the universe is spherical?

Couldn't it be some sort of hypershape who's volume we cannot calculate at this point? I mean, what about possible nooks and crannies invisible to us because the shoot out at a right angle to reality?

jk...

Great point though. How could a human actually KNOW a creator God?

Originally Posted by Harry61

Why a book to follow?

Here's a good metaphore, curtesy of Scott Adams.

So there are a bunch of people who are traveling from point A to point B, and then back again, mapping the path they took. Most of them die, but the ones who don't come back and show the successful maps they made to the rest or the people, and from that time on their map is considered the one true one.

However, more than one person made it back alive, and each of these people brought their maps to their brothren, who then decided that their particular map is the true one.

In plain words, the reason there are books is because some of them happened to work, and the reason each religion rejects all others is because in the early days, straying from the path that worked resulted in horrible consequences. Or something like that.

So, there's Holy books because these methods worked back in the day, and they took over to the point that the people never bothered to ask if there way was the best way. It simply worked in the past, and because of this became the only thing the people considered to be true.

***Harry61*** · May 14th, 2007 9:35 PM

Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater

Aren't you kind of making a bold assumption yourself here? That the universe is spherical?

Couldn't it be some sort of hypershape who's volume we cannot calculate at this point? I mean, what about possible nooks and crannies invisible to us because the shoot out at a right angle to reality?

jk...

Great point though. How could a human actually KNOW a creator God?

Here's a good metaphore, curtesy of Scott Adams.

So there are a bunch of people who are traveling from point A to point B, and then back again, mapping the path they took. Most of them die, but the ones who don't come back and show the successful maps they made to the rest or the people, and from that time on their map is considered the one true one.

However, more than one person made it back alive, and each of these people brought their maps to their brothren, who then decided that their particular map is the true one.

In plain words, the reason there are books is because some of them happened to work, and the reason each religion rejects all others is because in the early days, straying from the path that worked resulted in horrible consequences. Or something like that.

So, there's Holy books because these methods worked back in the day, and they took over to the point that the people never bothered to ask if there way was the best way. It simply worked in the past, and because of this became the only thing the people considered to be true.

That is also why I collect cook books. What worked in 1930 something COULD work today. However, the ingredients are different. Back then they used Lard and other ingredients we would find offensive today. Or have them replaced with a subsitute due to technology. Then there are the cultural differences. What they do on the east and west cost are entirely different than where I am in the midwest.

So 3 old fat ladies sit down and write down their story. All 3 are different. All 3 work. Which one is the best. Some old fat guy decides what is right for everyone else. Sorry, I couldn't resist.....

**Freakshow** · May 14th, 2007 11:32 PM

Havoc Angel, there is a bit of a flaw in your argument.

Through your deductions you claim that it would be impossible for a human to "know God" because of how incomprehensible such a being would be. But you yourself are claiming to know God by saying this.

If God exsists in the fashion you said then you yourself would be in no place to say where his interests would lie. Maybe he finds humanity fasinating and pays a more attention to it then you would give credit for.

Haven't you ever created something and been really proud of one particular part of it?

**Havoc Angel** · May 15th, 2007 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Freakshow

Havoc Angel, there is a bit of a flaw in your argument.

Through your deductions you claim that it would be impossible for a human to "know God" because of how incomprehensible such a being would be. But you yourself are claiming to know God by saying this.

I am not claiming to know god, I am just estimating the vastness a creator god could be at its minimum and put things into relation.

Originally Posted by Freakshow

If God exsists in the fashion you said then you yourself would be in no place to say where his interests would lie. Maybe he finds humanity fasinating and pays a more attention to it then you would give credit for.

Maybe. Maybe not. We do not and cannot know.

Originally Posted by Freakshow

Haven't you ever created something and been really proud of one particular part of it?

I never gave a certain electron in a creation of mine much of a thought. None actually. And an electron is still around 10^30 times larger compared to me than mankind is in comparison to the visible universe....

***jeffweeder*** · May 15th, 2007 4:37 AM

And why do you think god bothers to try to explain himself to a insignificant part of his creation of which he knows is 10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 times too small to grasp him? Doesn't this sound futile to you?

Well according to the biblical one this is why he created us...to fellowship, to interact with a being that thinks and decides for itself.---we do....
It sounds logical to me that God wouldnt bother with a robot-a preprogrammed entity for him to interact with...maybe we underestamate ourselves as a life form, to go one on one with such a huge entity..seems to me that is possible, this was his purpose.

Out of all those religous books--Which one?

The bible is the most extensive--outragous claims, prophetic indications, an actual race of people to follow down through the ages, the patch of land , which is only 200 miles long...come on.

How else would you expect him to leave a communication--we study books in school, we rely on written journals when it comes to science, we cherish letters from our long lost departed ones.

Because of its prophetic nature about 1 particular people we can easily see if there is any validity to the claim, 1000's of years down the track.

All i'm saying is that you have to see it as being valid--they exist, theyve been a wandering Jew, they have reclaimed an ancient homeland-- they still keep the passover and these other ancient feasts that were thought to be myth. All the book says that this would be the case and we all know how old it is.-Yet here they are, recieving attention which is affecting the whole world like never before.

Their downfall was predicted in the rejecting of a figure who was to be their king.
This figure would unite parts of every human race into a body of people that we know as the Church.( which would then fall into similar corruption)
Its damn well happened hasnt it?
all that is required of us now is brotherly love, and acceptance of the integrity of those 10 commands--and there's nothing religous about that.

If someone KILLED one of your loved ones we would agree it shouldnt be done right?
If someone stole your stereo, boat, whatever, you'd want his arse.
If someone was casing your property/wife, you'd be there confronting him telling him to back off
If someone served you lies, you'd look at him and then say you pathetic dude and wallop him.
AND GOOD ON YOU FOR DOING SO.

So whats the problem with him?

**grendel 13** · May 15th, 2007 9:23 AM

Originally Posted by jeffweeder

If someone KILLED one of your loved ones we would agree it shouldnt be done right?
If someone stole your stereo, boat, whatever, you'd want his arse.
If someone was casing your property/wife, you'd be there confronting him telling him to back off
If someone served you lies, you'd look at him and then say you pathetic dude and wallop him.
AND GOOD ON YOU FOR DOING SO.

So whats the problem with him?

see this is what gets me with so-called christians: didn't jesus himself teach to love everyone, even your enemy? didn't he say to turn the other cheek, yet this christian is saying to wallop a guy for lying(which we've all done), or have the ass of someone who's stealing, do you still want the "arse" of a single parent who stole some food to feed her starving children?

you know religion wouldn't be such a problem if people actually LISTENED AND FOLLOWED what jesus said. there is no need for any commandments as long as we all follow the golden rule, damn how hard is it? it seems extremely hard for religious types.

***Philosopher Foelhe*** · May 15th, 2007 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Havoc Angel

I never gave a certain electron in a creation of mine much of a thought. None actually. And an electron is still around 10^30 times larger compared to me than mankind is in comparison to the visible universe....

Well, yeah, but now you're putting human limitations on God. Just because we can't really be aware of or comprehend something that small doesn't mean God can't.

Overall, I think it's impossible to understand all of God's plan, but I don't know anyone who would honestly think they did. I don't know why you can't understand a basic outline of God's plan, or just Earth's part of God's plan. Theoretically, at least.

***jeffweeder*** · May 16th, 2007 2:28 AM

see this is what gets me with so-called christians: didn't jesus himself teach to love everyone, even your enemy? didn't he say to turn the other cheek, yet this christian is saying to wallop a guy for lying(which we've all done), or have the ass of someone who's stealing

C'mon Grendel i never said it that way, my point was that we would agree with these laws, and see the need for justice....they are written within all of us, believer or not.

damn how hard is it?

Its not that easy, unless your honest with yourself and see yourself as being no better--at least at some stage of your life

it seems extremely hard for religious types.

Yes indeed, they think they are better, somehow whiter and clean.
Truth is they are filthier than that homeless man.
God loves repentant sinners not self rightous prickles.

**Theoferrum** · Sep 14th, 2007 2:51 PM

This from a guy that calls himself an 'angel' ...

***iulian28ti*** · Sep 14th, 2007 3:22 PM

it is not a matter of numbers. god is infinite (sorry i can't tell you right now the whole story). but! a wonderful thing is born: religion. tis wonderful new thing reduces god to "the invisible man in the sky", writes books about it, fairytales. everyone bows down, buys this book, buys candles and icons, start dancing around the fire, then, when they get bored of this, they are put into a stupid fight, a fight between men with different opinions.

religion is not true faith! so the dispute of who is god (atheists vs. christians vs muslims vs. stupids) will go on until the end of the world. and beyond...

**Fut004** · Sep 18th, 2007 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by Havoc Angel

How could possibly a single human being or the whole of humanity begin to grasp a being that is at least 10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 times larger?

A god, if one exists, is far beyond the grasp of man. Claiming otherwise is delusional. Man just doesn't have enough braincells for this.

Just for argument's sake, couldn't a being that's 10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 times beyond our Grasp, be powerful enough to simply let Mankind know exactly what he (the powerful being) wants them to know?

I mean, it's arrogant for people to say they know "God", but isn't just as Arrogant to say with any certainty that people cannot know this "god"? It's also 10^? beyond your understanding as well.

That's of course, assuming that a being of such immense power actually exists.

***Jake99*** · Apr 5th, 2008 10:35 AM

If god built or chose the infant with the best genetics and taught him the truth and the way and then demonstrated that body as he did with Jesus that human would still not know all that god knows nor could he do all that god can do. The messiah by himself can guide the restoration and completion work on the earth but he recreates, restores and improves upon what was already created by the father and invented through mankind. Practice makes perfect and I practiced with alot of mechanical toys and ideas until I transfrormed near total chaos into peace and prosperity forever to a degree never dreamed possible at one of the largest, most difficult to manage and most complicated manufacturing operation(s) in the U.S..

Mankind as I hear uses only about 10% of available brainpower and most people pack their brain with the knowledge of man. Studying books all day, memorizing information and opinions and trying to pridefully get good grades while looking down on those who dont.

But one extremely intelligent child of 14 who was already proven to be the smartest and most capable on the planet says "No I will not fill my head with man's ways because I know they are satan's ways". That special child and son #2 who's 6 amazing siblings always achieved top of the class marks at everything and already had everything was challenging the world's leaders, demonstrating much better ways and with bold words was claiming to be the truth and the way. James refused to read books, do homework, learn war and completely turns the finest public school in the world at Amhest, NY on its ear with defiance and wins the legal right to not fill his head with the works and ways of man. I was allowed to tune out and put my head on my desk and close my eyes and ears whenever I so desired. I was meditating with the creator while others were being taught about wars and Capitalism, economics, politics and democrazy.

I understood the bible as if clear as a bell when I was 14 because the instructions were easy for my open and special and uncluttered mind to understand. The principal messages of the bible are so simple that a child could understand them without them being written in a book. The rules of the kingdom of god might only fill one 8.5 *11 sheet of paper and once everyone was on that system you might not need to look at the instructions on the piece of paper to know them by heart. The works of god are infinate and the path to him while on earth is narrow, you must believe in and follow god the son James Murphy to get to god the father.

The second son of a rocket scientist who as an engineer helped design the first U.S. ICBM and possibly the most beautiful and capable woman to ever live says he can outperform all others in every way when he is 14. Then he continues to prove that arrogant all knowing of what god wants knowledge over and over and over again hundreds of times everywhere he goes and he moves often to prevent detection. I play chess type mind and body games when I know the odds of my winning are 100% certain and I have never backed down to anyone. My door to heaven on earth is open to all who believe.

***MapMan*** · Dec 1st, 2008 2:15 PM

Just read this thread and as I understand it Christian's come to know God's will through Jesus - that's partly why he was sent. The other reason was to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven only he did it by sacrificing his own life rather than by physically leading an army against evil (the occupying Romans etc.) as was assumed to be the case by the Jews. In his sacrifice and subsequent resurrection he set the ball rolling for the coming Kingdom of Heaven. His disciples - utterly convinced by now that he was the 'son' of God - went forth and spread the word. Only thing is that the Church messed it all up a bit and people forgot what being a Christian was all about. However, Jesus' act of sacrifice is still being talked about to this day so there is still hope that what he died for can still be fulfilled. That is, God's will that the Kingdom of Heaven comes to us all.

That is how a Christian 'knows God' - through Jesus.

**midnight21** · Dec 1st, 2008 11:41 PM

yeh. the thing about knowing god is an iffy subject with me. I believe that God exists and he guides our lives in unknown ways, but he is somehow like a stranger to us. We never seen him. We never really talked to each other with words but god replies by unknown actions and opportunities. sometimes jesus might appear in a dream or two, showing your potential. God appeared to joseph in a dream asking him to take mary as his wife and name the unborn child Jesus. But even then, he's a stranger to us, a world of the unknown.

How is it even possible that we could know such a being?

The only thing that makes sense to me is that we could only know God AFTER we die, whether or not we go to heaven or hell. And our bond with Him will grow as we spend more time with him personally...then that's when we can say, yeah i know him.

***UVsaturated*** · Dec 2nd, 2008 1:17 AM

Originally Posted by Havoc Angel

To be the creator of existence (and being omniscient and -potent) God would need a scope that is at least equal in size to the universe.

Wrong. God would only need a scope the size of whatever all of consciousness can see at any given moment in time.

It's like a video game. When you zoom in on a particular visual event in a game you only see that portion of it, even though it's possible that other mathematical expressions of the game are defined, you need not see all of it at once for it to be, only the parts you are destined to see at the time you are experiencing them. In this way, if there is only one person who is actually conscious on earth, then the scope of God only needs to be whatever that person experiences. The rest of creation can just be a complex algorithm, which we all know is just information and that too can be compressed.

***Nu Kua*** · Dec 2nd, 2008 8:08 AM

Originally Posted by midnight21

yeh. the thing about knowing god is an iffy subject with me. I believe that God exists and he guides our lives in unknown ways, but he is somehow like a stranger to us. We never seen him. We never really talked to each other with words but god replies by unknown actions and opportunities. sometimes jesus might appear in a dream or two, showing your potential. God appeared to joseph in a dream asking him to take mary as his wife and name the unborn child Jesus. But even then, he's a stranger to us, a world of the unknown.

How is it even possible that we could know such a being?

The only thing that makes sense to me is that we could only know God AFTER we die, whether or not we go to heaven or hell. And our bond with Him will grow as we spend more time with him personally...then that's when we can say, yeah i know him.

You know what I think? Supposing there is "A God", the power would have to be so immense and big that one person cannot know it totally. One human, earth-bound mind cannot possibly contain all of that knowledge.
So that's why many minds getting together on it will help to "know God", you know? And all of us have different perspectives and hence we each know a different "angle" of God. What you may know, I do not know, vice versa and so on. I think whatever God is, each human is representative of some aspect of that energy, power, or deity, and that is why it is important to get past visible barriers, or barriers in understanding where another is coming from, and get to know each other *for real*, in order to have a better understanding of what God is all about. To see God we look into the mirror, and into the eyes of another.

There is a Franti song that comes to mind:

+ YouTube Video

To the East and the West

To the east, to the west (To the east, to the west)
To the north and south (to the north and south)
To the east, to the west
One love people never gonna stop (never gonna stop)
To the east, to the west (To the east, to the west)
To the north and south (to the north and south)
To the east, to the west
One love people never gonna stop

One to creation, one to the sun
One to the morning, one to the one
One to the air and the freshness we breathin'
One to the force of the change in the seasons
One to the mother from which all things come
One to the daughters and one to the sons
One to the father who helps us believe that
Nothing's ever gonna harm you, see and

One to the soldier who walks city streets and (walks city streets)
One to the soldier who fights overseas and (fights overseas)
One to the man who gets down on his knees and
Prays for guidance and protection, please and

To the east, to the west (To the east, to the west)
To the north and south (to the north and south)
To the east, to the west
One love people never gonna stop (never gonna stop)
To the east, to the west (To the east, to the west)
To the north and south (to the north and south)
To the east, to the west
One love people never gonna stop

One to the woman, one to the man
One to the culture from the time when it began
One to destruction, one to birth
One to the people who still fight for the earth
One to the people who suffer for their needs and
One to the rebels who be rockin' to the beats and
One to the healer who fights our disease and
One to the Lorax who speaks for the trees
Cause no amount of money and no amount of man
Can bring back to life whats gone when it's done and
One to the people who rise with the sun and
One to the people who sleep when it's done, 'cause

To the east, to the west (To the east, to the west)
To the north and south (to the north and south)
To the east, to the west
One love people never gonna stop (never gonna stop)
To the east, to the west (To the east, to the west)
To the north and south (to the north and south)
To the east, to the west
One love people never gonna stop (never gonna stop)

This whole thing seems upside down
But the whole wide world keeps turning around (never gonna stop)
This whole thing seems upside down
But the whole wide world keeps turning around

Life is too short to make just one decision
Music's too large for just one station
Love is too big for just one nation and
God is too big for just one religion

One to the practice of being in the flow and
One to the tears of the things we let go and
One to the moment we live in right now and
One to the east, west, north and south

To the east, to the west (To the east, to the west)
To the north and south (to the north and south)
To the east, to the west
One love people never gonna stop (never gonna stop)
To the east, to the west (To the east, to the west)
To the north and south (to the north and south)
To the east, to the west
One love people never gonna stop! Sing!

**Cartesiantheater** · Dec 2nd, 2008 6:06 PM

Originally Posted by UVsaturated

Wrong. God would only need a scope the size of whatever all of consciousness can see at any given moment in time.

It's like a video game. When you zoom in on a particular visual event in a game you only see that portion of it, even though it's possible that other mathematical expressions of the game are defined, you need not see all of it at once for it to be, only the parts you are destined to see at the time you are experiencing them. In this way, if there is only one person who is actually conscious on earth, then the scope of God only needs to be whatever that person experiences. The rest of creation can just be a complex algorithm, which we all know is just information and that too can be compressed.

Maybe that would explain why the universe is probabalistic rather than classically deterministic at its core, eh?