a Christian boys' confession to me. Hope this doesn't offend anybody..

**Devon** · May 17th, 2007 1:30 PM

Alright, I wrote this once. Took me forever. Went to post it but apperantly I wasn't logged in. Tried to go back and it was all gone so i'm rather frustrated. Perhaps it was 'God' punishing me for questioning 'him' because you know how 'God' punishes people. here we go again.
******

I live in a house with seven different people, all strongly opinionated and odd. I have many stories, but this one fits best here.
A boy in my house was recently confirmed as a Christian man in the eyes of the Catholic church. We were always having discussions about what he truly believed in and his beliefs varied from day to day confirming MY beliefs that he wasn't so sure about his arranged faith. One day, he believed in 'God' as a man. Like a father figure to the children that he had created. I questioned this. Why did he believe that 'God' embodied a male species of the superior race? He thought about it this. The next day he came to me with his theory of 'God' as a higher power; a force that decided where we were going, when we died or what happened to us overall. He's young and still discovering facts about his religion and what it means. I talked to him that night and he decided he didn't really know what he believed in.
"I believe in Jesus coming down" I tried not to roll my eyes. (sorry..aha) "And I believe in what I need to do to get to heaven, but I don't get some of the asinine things we've done." Before I could ask him to elaborate, he headed up the stairs. What was he talking about? I mean, I knew what he meant about the asinine choices that the Catholic church has carried out in the past but should a newly conformed member on the Christian faith really be so skeptical so soon?
A couple days past and I heard something about a conformation. I was rather busy and didn't see him for a while. It wasn't like I was going to try and change his mind but seeing the result of the comformation, I should've tried to get him to find it in himself to question the whole damn thing, because he did question the little things.
He came home after it saying he felt like a different person. Not directly to me anyways.
I didn't rain on his parade. I waited until the next day. aha.. (i'm not evil, ok?) I hadn't talk to him since before the conformation.
When I saw him, I asked him how it went. He said it went alright. Then he told me that he only did it for the title of "man" really. I was shocked. I thought he might be ashamed to be Christian because I was always questioning it. I asked him if this were the case and I told him these weren't my intentions and that I had my own opinions just as I had mine. He seemed to relax a little and once again told me he was confused. I began with the questions again. Just to confirm something for him and I.
"Well, do you believe in aliens?"
"Yes..."
"So you don't believe in creationism?"
"What do you mean?"
"Well the Bible says that the stars, sun, moon and planets were created for us. Apperantly, they have a purpose. They did not just randomly evolve. So do you believe that 'God' just created the planets?"
"Well, maybe 'God' created evolution?" That was a good point on his part. I tried to make it simple for him.
"If evolution exists, then did 'God' evolve? Who created'God'? How could he just randomly exist?" He thought about this for a bit and then in a quite frustrated manner threw up his hands and said he didn't know. He didn't know if he was Christian, he didn't know if he believed in 'God'. I felt kind of sorry that I had frustrated him but I think it had it's benifits.
"So, if you're not sure then why did you conform to a faith that you couldn't uphold?"
"I don't know.."
"Did you feel forced?"
"Kind of. My family is pure Catholic."
And there you have it. People feel strong about a certain theory, it trickles down to there children, they don't really understand that well but they hold onto it because it's the only thing that they have that gives them hope for after death.
The same thing could be said about the Catholic faith over the years. Watered down, trying to make excuses for the unknown. Everyone is on the manufacturing line preparing for heaven and they're all in the same boat headed for darkness.
This is life, you don't get a second chance. Why not be free spirited and individually concerned on the goodness of it all, instead of forming a cult (because it basically is a cult) that tells you what you need to do in order to go to 'Heaven' and if you make mistakes you go to 'Hell' and are eternally cut off from all light and 'God'. A punishment for life.
It's the wrangling of fragile minds who need that hope or they will stray away from the real point of life and malfunction. There will always be people telling you to live like this or like that. Everyone standing on their little soap boxes, mega phones pressed to there lips; evidence and theory dripping from their hands desperately trying to make someone understand. If someone was watching us they'd be laughing at the puzzled looks on our faces as we climb over one another trying to find the answers in a panicked rush, the stupid look of revelation when we come to the conclusion that the answer is there if we just stop and live. There were things here before us, and there will be things here long after we're gone. What gives us the right to just assume we're the centre of it all and that if there really is a creator; it's closest to us and nothing else?
The point is, you have to know what is right for yourself, and your family and how you are going to contribute positively to the world. We're not stupid, we know that a better life is our goal. We now need to pick up the pieces from all that panicking and settle down. Perhaps that is why people impose religion. To balance out a way of life and we can all live like the Brady Bunch. Can't we be individually responsible and solid people without all the phony over-zelous self appointed Apostles of Jesus himself? I don't appreciated Jahova Witnesses at my door. No thank-you.

***Philosopher Foelhe*** · May 17th, 2007 1:47 PM

See, I can understand the criticism somewhat. A lot of people are more interested in getting their kids/random strangers saved rather than making sure they know what that actually means. But I don't think that totally devalues the religion itself. It's just that the approach people take to the religion needs to change. And if your friend is actually dedicated to being a good Catholic, he'll take the time to figure out the questions you've asked him. If not, then he needs to step away from it. So I can agree with you there.

Also, I gotta say, I don't agree with a lot of your logical arguments here. "If you believe in aliens, you can't believe in creationism"? Why?

**Devon** · May 17th, 2007 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe

See, I can understand the criticism somewhat. A lot of people are more interested in getting their kids/random strangers saved rather than making sure they know what that actually means. But I don't think that totally devalues the religion itself. It's just that the approach people take to the religion needs to change. And if your friend is actually dedicated to being a good Catholic, he'll take the time to figure out the questions you've asked him. If not, then he needs to step away from it. So I can agree with you there.

Also, I gotta say, I don't agree with a lot of your logical arguments here. "If you believe in aliens, you can't believe in creationism"? Why?

Of course I wasn't trying to convert him over to 'my side' or anything. And he isn't quite the devout catholic, if you knew him. aaha.

I was trying to get into his headspace, make him think about it. I don't devalue the religion, I just disown it. I know that people who take part in it are no less worthy or more worthy then anybody else. Maybe some of my sarcastic remarks made it seem that way, now that I look I didn't mean to offend anybody but I didn't really go about it all that gently.
The universe is bigger then we'll ever know. Creationism (as I said) dejects any theory of evolution whatsoever and therefore states that everything was created by 'God' and only 'God'? I guess I didn't mean aliens, but life outside of our planet in general. I also shouldn't have said "So you don't believe in Creationism" but rather "how do you believe in creationism".
The Catholic church did it to Galileo too. They knew he was right but he wasn't allowed to speak such things. That's what baffles me. The evidence is there, but we turn our heads because it defies years and years of study and worship.
It's a circular argument about religion with most of the people I know who have that faith. They believe in 'God' because it's in the bible, they believe in the bible because of 'God'. I could understand a fully educated person discussing religion with me and me not having a knee-jerk reaction to it but when I can tell that people don't fully understand it that's when the flag goes up and I wonder why they even bother.
Try to understand this if it may be my only logical point. What makes us think that we can know such things? As I said, we are all just children in the universe. Naive and arrogant. How can we publish a way of life by thinking that that's how something we fantasize about might want it done? I just don't know. Maybe this isn't my place to argue but that's my view on it.
Thanks.

***Philosopher Foelhe*** · May 18th, 2007 1:19 AM

Originally Posted by Devon

Creationism (as I said) dejects any theory of evolution whatsoever and therefore states that everything was created by 'God' and only 'God'? I guess I didn't mean aliens, but life outside of our planet in general.

I still don't agree. How can you say that God absolutely couldn't create life anywhere other than Earth? I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't see the logic there.

Originally Posted by Devon

What makes us think that we can know such things? As I said, we are all just children in the universe. Naive and arrogant. How can we publish a way of life by thinking that that's how something we fantasize about might want it done?

Children aren't exactly stupid. They're uneducated, yes, and they don't understand everything adults can, but they can often wrap their heads around the basics. If someone explains things to them, I don't see why they can't have a basic idea of how things work. (Explaining in this context being through the bible, or, if you're a "spiritualist" like me, through the soul.)

Originally Posted by Devon

Maybe this isn't my place to argue but that's my view on it.

*laughs* Oh, it's everybody's place to argue. Don't mind me if I get annoying. I nitpick because I love.

**Devon** · May 18th, 2007 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe

I still don't agree. How can you say that God absolutely couldn't create life anywhere other than Earth? I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't see the logic there..

I'm not saying that 'God' couldn't create life outside of Earth, (although that's what I was hinting towards) I'm saying that it contradicts the notion of the bible. The premise of Christianity is that we're the centre of the universe. I'm sure other Christians believe that 'God' could've created life else but it goes against the original arguments of the birth of Christianity. So...basically their religion is evolving which is kind of ironic. ahaha. Frankly, I don't believe in this 'God'. A singular creator. I believe in time and the evolution of one celled organisms. I don't believe in a messiah or a pre-decided doomsday. I don't believe the premise of the bible (the word of 'God') I don't believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ the only Son of 'God'
"For us men and for our salvation He came down from Heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary and was made man."
Well then.

Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe

Children aren't exactly stupid. They're uneducated, yes, and they don't understand everything adults can, but they can often wrap their heads around the basics. If someone explains things to them, I don't see why they can't have a basic idea of how things work. (Explaining in this context being through the bible, or, if you're a "spiritualist" like me, through the soul.)

Oh of course children aren't stupid. I know this for a fact. Again, I didn't mean children were arrogant and naive, I meant we are still children in the universe. Babies. AND we are naive and arrogant. Of course we're not really all children. I meant that as a metaphor for our time span here. But we are all very naive. Especially when we think we can explain everything by relating to a shifty concept that dates back over 2000 years. Uh..people though the earth was square back then too.

Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe

laughs* Oh, it's everybody's place to argue. Don't mind me if I get annoying. I nitpick because I love.

ahaha =] arguing leads to real answers. The evoution of more questions. Argue away, if you have any more points. But my opinion is staying right where it is at the moment.

***Philosopher Foelhe*** · May 19th, 2007 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by Devon

I'm not saying that 'God' couldn't create life outside of Earth, (although that's what I was hinting towards) I'm saying that it contradicts the notion of the bible. The premise of Christianity is that we're the centre of the universe.

You think so? I'm not sure I agree. I know Christians in the past have believed the Earth is the center of the cosmos, but I don't think that means all Christianity, or Christianity as it was intended, has to agree. Are there any verses that support this?

Originally Posted by Devon

Frankly, I don't believe in this 'God'. A singular creator. I believe in time and the evolution of one celled organisms. I don't believe in a messiah or a pre-decided doomsday. I don't believe the premise of the bible (the word of 'God') I don't believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ the only Son of 'God'

On most of these, I agree with you. I just don't think the fact that I don't believe in these concepts refutes them.

Originally Posted by Devon

Especially when we think we can explain everything by relating to a shifty concept that dates back over 2000 years. Uh..people though the earth was square back then too.

Eh. Sorry, but just because people back then didn't know much about science, it doesn't mean they didn't know much about anything. The fact that people have believed in something for millenia doesn't prove that something is true. But it doesn't prove it's false, either.

TC · May 19th, 2007 1:00 AM

Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe

You think so? I'm not sure I agree. I know Christians in the past have believed the Earth is the center of the cosmos, but I don't think that means all Christianity, or Christianity as it was intended, has to agree. Are there any verses that support this?

On most of these, I agree with you. I just don't think the fact that I don't believe in these concepts refutes them.

Eh. Sorry, but just because people back then didn't know much about science, it doesn't mean they didn't know much about anything. The fact that people have believed in something for millenia doesn't prove that something is true. But it doesn't prove it's false, either.

Agreed, some pretty heavy stuff came from those early people, fact most of what we refined today.

***nrj*** · May 19th, 2007 1:17 AM

Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe

Children aren't exactly stupid. They're uneducated, yes, and they don't understand everything adults can, but they can often wrap their heads around the basics.

Naive, arrogant and stupid are three different words.

Sorry, I got to back him up on this one, PF.

Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe

I know Christians in the past have believed the Earth is the center of the cosmos, but I don't think that means all Christianity, or Christianity as it was intended, has to agree. Are there any verses that support this?

From what I've heard in school and on these boards, the Bible states the Earth is a "cricle" when there was a word for "orb" in hebrew at the time. I'll try finding a source to back me up.

TC · May 19th, 2007 1:30 AM

Uhh, the "him" is a "her" ( Devon).

**Devon** · May 19th, 2007 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by shortround

Uhh, the "him" is a "her" ( Devon).

psssh...thank you..

"Eh. Sorry, but just because people back then didn't know much about science, it doesn't mean they didn't know much about anything. The fact that people have believed in something for millenia doesn't prove that something is true. But it doesn't prove it's false, either. "

I'm not talking about science, (and I know that if it weren't for the trial and error and the great successes we've managed to accomplish that we'd be stuck right now. That's an obvious fact so.. let's move on from that) I'm talking about this version of 'God' and how to live our life according to 'his word'. Ugh... i'm not bashing anything. I'm on one topic here, not history in general. Anyways...I'm sure I didn't say it like that...are words being put in my mouth here?

"Agreed, some pretty heavy stuff came from those early people, fact most of what we refined today."
Well yeah. We've refined it to make more sense then it did. They got the basic idea and we're just putting a 21st century twist on a notion that we know more about this 'creator' then anything. All we have to do is accept the Lord God as our personal Lord and Saviour, then ask for forgiveness of our sins. Is it really that simple? I mean, that's not the whole religion right there but in regards to 'saving' people...how will they be saved like that? Saved from what anyways? Is it just nonsense to fill your head with? Really.. Can we be good without 'God'? I mean..'he' does get in the way of a lot of things.

***Cornish Maid*** · May 19th, 2007 3:40 PM

Can we be good without 'God'? I mean..'he' does get in the way of a lot of things.

I'm sure he didn't mean to. I expect He will apologise to us all for being such a pain.

**Devon** · May 19th, 2007 5:37 PM

Originally Posted by Cornish Maid

I'm sure he didn't mean to. I expect He will apologise to us all for being such a pain.

Ahahaha. Finally, someone else who finds the subject a little humorous. ^^

***Cornish Maid*** · May 19th, 2007 5:46 PM

Originally Posted by Devon

Ahahaha. Finally, someone else who finds the subject a little humorous. ^^

Well you have got to laugh haven't you. Well that's my take on human life.

I am here and I laugh.

**Cartesiantheater** · May 19th, 2007 5:58 PM

God exists, or did at one time, because I have seen his final message to all creation.

It's written in thirty-foot-high letters of fire on top of the Quentulus Quazgar Mountains in the land of Sevorbeupstry... the following is God's final message to his creation...

WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE

***Cornish Maid*** · May 19th, 2007 6:05 PM

Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater

God exists, or did at one time, because I have seen his final message to all creation.

It's written in thirty-foot-high letters of fire on top of the Quentulus Quazgar Mountains in the land of Sevorbeupstry... the following is God's final message to his creation...

WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE

Answer. No problem God, We have done the courses and we can forgive you.