Why wait for "god"?

[eldingo12]

Okay, I don't get it. Why do I hear all of this talk about god will fix this or god will fix that? People have been waiting for 2000 years (if you believe in jesus) for him to fix all of the worlds problems. My question is why? Why not actually put some effort in and fix it yourselves? Yes, the world is in a bad spot right now. So what? We don't need some father figure to save the day. Have we become so lazy that we will let the world destroy itself waiting for this god to save us all? Oh, and I don't want to hear any "the bible says so" unless you have the original.

[Nu Kua]

Absolutely!
This is why I keep saying that it is we, the humans, who are alternatively the gods of creation or the gods of destruction. Every good thing in the world has been the result of humans putting their minds, hearts, and actions together for a cause- and the same is true of every bad thing. (Barring natural events such as weather, space weather, or geo- seismic activity)
It is all the results of the actions, or inactions, of humans. Nothing more, nothing less.

I do not see how a belief in a creator deity would negate this.
If indeed it is true that this world was given to us as a gift, then look what we have allowed to happen to it. What kind of a thank you is that?
We are doing it; we are responsible. Nobody is coming to save the good or punish the wicked.
Even if that were so, how "good" can you consider a person who is content to sit on their ass and do nothing, while waiting for a Savior to come and fix all of our mistakes, and to correct the evil that is allowed to continue under our lackadaisical watch?
It makes no sense.
Still assuming that there is a God who created humans for a specific purpose, we have to ask, what purpose? If the Creator has every event and path already set in stone, and didn't intend for us to make of this world what we choose, then why not keep us as the apes and chimpanzees for playmates? Why give us the consciousness we have to think, observe, make logic, feel, and learn, if we weren't to make choices with the abilities that set us apart from most other animals?

The world and everything in it is our responsibility to make or break as we choose.

[UVsaturated]

I disagree OP. There is a good reason to wait on the Lord, so to speak.

I tried once to take charge a few years ago, and it did nothing but landed me almost in prison.

The reason is that the world is not running by an external cause and effect mechanism, but a destiny driven timetable. As Revelations says, who can make war with the beast?

Sit back, put your trust in the truth, and watch the fireworks. The end will come like a flood and you are not going to do anything about it.

[iulian28ti]

If you have a dream, like making the world a better place, you will see that no violence is really needed, no "end days" or a "god".

Some guys dreamed to fly a long time ago, right ? People thought it's impossible and still.... now we can all fly, thanks to those brilliant dreamers.

The problem with people is they are so apathetic and think nothing can be changed. Well, you can't save the world by yourself, but you can surely change a bit of it and inspire other people.

I tried once to take charge a few years ago, and it did nothing but landed me almost in prison.

Uh, what did you do ?

[UVsaturated]

Uh, what did you do ?

I said, "screw the system". That is, what everyone is complaining about isn't it, that the system is flawed? Apparently, you are not allowed to define what is right or wrong apart from what the system says is right or wrong.

You said one person cannot change anything yet used the idea of man flying as some sort of example. It only took two guys to learn to control a flying machine.

If I tried to break the rules today, it would be a government smackdown.

There is no way to change the system, within the system. Sorry. That too has been done before, and the opposition is too fierce because they all have something to lose and won't allow it. You will step on someone else's toes and they just won't have that.

[Assassin X]

Well for one humans can't fix the world. Only hippies and dreamers think they can change the world. Peace and love man! Truth is the world is only going to get worse. We are a nasty, cruel and destructive race and for every "peaceful" person there are 10 destroyers. So any mission to save the planet for instance is null and void. I mean go and try, I am all for it but it won't happen.

As for waiting for god remember in heaven time isn't real. There is no time. To god 1,000,000,000,000 years is 1 second to him (if time were a real concept to him). Things mentioned in the bible that are supposed to happen before he comes back are/have happened. Theres actually not much time left as it is. People in the past that have been like "OMG HES COMING SOON!" have totally skipped the fact that there were still prophecies left yet to be fulfilled.

There are only a few left now. I am not good at the end of it but from everything I hear we won't be around maybe 100 years max. He probably will be back in my life time and I am 26.

Actually you don't need to fix the world because it isn't going to mess up. The only one going to mess it up is God and by that time that will be the least of anyones worries.

[iulian28ti]

I said, "screw the system". That is, what everyone is complaining about isn't it, that the system is flawed? Apparently, you are not allowed to define what is right or wrong apart from what the system says is right or wrong.

You were almost jailed for saying something ? *OMG !*

I would have said "Okay, i didn't say something good. I'll rephrase: Screw you !"
For something like this i would kill. To be jailed for my words, i would kill. Then they can jail me. Or kill me...

You said one person cannot change anything yet used the idea of man flying as some sort of example. It only took two guys to learn to control a flying machine.

I don't think i said it wrong. 2 persons (actually the first sketches were made by one man) built it and in time the rest exploited the invention.
My point was that dreams can come true. There's no impossible, just very hard.

There is no way to change the system, within the system. Sorry. That too has been done before, and the opposition is too fierce because they all have something to lose and won't allow it. You will step on someone else's toes and they just won't have that.

That was my second point. Don't try to change the system by yourself. Change the people.
And i don't mean convince them to blow the White House or use some other violent method. Convince them to accept there is room for better. There has always been.
That's why they like us to be apathetic, so we won't try to change things. But if you try, in time the "big molecule" will break and people will be free.

[UVsaturated]

That was my second point. Don't try to change the system by yourself. Change the people.
And i don't mean convince them to blow the White House or use some other violent method. Convince them to accept there is room for better. There has always been.
That's why they like us to be apathetic, so we won't try to change things. But if you try, in time the "big molecule" will break and people will be free.

Which leads us to the inevitable conclusion: You cannot change the people because everyone is thoroughly divided amongst themselves. This is why nothing gets done. This is also why revolt and rebellion would not be successful even if it were doable. The winners of any uprising would create the same system we have today.

[iulian28ti]

You cannot change the people because everyone is thoroughly divided amongst themselves.

Because they're apathetic. They don't care about the one next to them, they don't care about a better world. The only thing they care is their own habitat. People are still robots, but it doesn't mean you can't "update" them.

[eldingo12]

Wow, no wonder your imaginary friend hasn't come back, why save someone who doesn't want to save themselves?

[weederbro]

Nu Kua, I agree with you that belief in a creator deity doesn't negate the truth of your first paragraph. And yeah, what kind of thankyou IS that, the desecration?.
But then you give me pause when you contradict the promise of the second advent of The Lord Jesus Christ. I choose to believe His promise, which is how 'faith', in the Word, is defined.
I do however agree with your objections to people sitting around waiting for the Lord to come, their lives will wither. It's life/love and nothing less,or IMPOVERISHMENT. You can choose to take your breaths IN or OUT of synch with The Father's, which is Life.
I don't believe we were made 'for a purpose' any more than the children we ourselves make.
They're for love and relationship and life.
Let us reason together. Our paths are NOT set in stone, He has gifted us free-will to choose our path, and the ability to calibrate our progress.
And who really can claim to know, with certainty, that His promises won't be fulfilled?
WE are the problem, hasn't anyone noticed? You have.
Did you know the New Testament tells us what our unfolding will be, by our own hand, as a result of mankinds free-will? We are told about the details of the dislocation we witness, of social, political and environmental desecration. The exact state of human behaviour just as we are witnessing.
He delays His return for mercy's sake, He wants His children back!
Justice, finally WILL be done and the innocent vindicated.
Believing this is my faith. A choice made according to where the evidence is pointing.
I wish that people would just read the New Testament without their minds being a steel trap.
It's the GOOD news after all.......

[Nu Kua]

Yes, perhaps, but where in the new testament does it say to sit on our collective tails and do nothing while we wait?
It is probably pretty obvious that I am somewhat on a fence when it comes to the concept of a Higher Power- but one thing I am (paradoxically, perhaps) aware of is that this you call "God" is innate in everyone, and that God, in order to get anything done on earth at all, works through humans.
Therefore I think is up to us to right the wrongs as much as we can, and to fix the problems.
If God created us as incomplete and then asked us to walk and strive to attain God like attributes- then doesn't that suggest that God wants us to take the responsibility into our own hands?
I do not believe in a physical, concrete rapture and second coming (I think it is an allusion to a rebirth in Christ consciousness) but for the sake of discussion lets say I do... and lets just say that Jesus comes back and is highly disappointed that we let the world get to this condition- and didn't do a damn thing about it other than to focus on our differences and argue about them. "Love they neighbor..."
How many of our actions are truly based on Love?

(Incidentally, since you enjoy the New Testament, you'd probably love the Nag Hammadi texts.
Some of the work of John in the New Testament mirrors those teachings very strongly.)

[weederbro]

I can't agree with you more UV. Dylan puts it this way:

Relationships of ownership they whisper in the wings
to those condemned to act accordingly and wait for succeeding kings
And I will try and harmonise with song the lonesome sparrow sings
There are no kings inside the gates of Eden.....

[weederbro]

Ha ha why do I get the feeling I'm wrestling with an angel?
Sitting on our tails leads to impoverishment. I do not advocate/advise it.
I agree He works thru humans (the ones who let Him)and yes, it's good to support efforts of all kinds to preserve what remains. But I don't think we are made incomplete as such, and it is much better simply to walk IN th Spirit, rather than doing things in the flesh and 'striving'. Chill out a bit by all means, love.
I don't go for the theological arguments over the rapture thing either.
You'd have to agree, we'd be a bit annoyed if we came home and the kids had shat on your rare and exquisite persian rug, killed the dog and strangled grandma and buried her under the stairs, right?

[eldingo12]

I don't believe we were made 'for a purpose' any more than the children we ourselves make.

Are you implying that our children have no purpose? What greater purpose is there than to continue one's own bloodline? We gain immortality through our children.

Come to think of it, what if humans were made as a last ditch effort for this god to survive? What if he was dying and in order to carry on he made humans as his "children" so he could live on forever through us?

[eldingo12]

You'd have to agree, we'd be a bit annoyed if we came home and the kids had shat on your rare and exquisite persian rug, killed the dog and strangled grandma and buried her under the stairs, right?

Seriously people!!!!! I can not drink coffee while on this site, I'd need a new keyboard every day!!! That was funny as hell... Damn it! I never understood that statement! Funny as hell, cold as hell. I understand hot as hell, but that's about it.

[UVsaturated]

Are you implying that our children have no purpose? What greater purpose is there than to continue one's own bloodline? We gain immortality through our children.

Come to think of it, what if humans were made as a last ditch effort for this god to survive? What if he was dying and in order to carry on he made humans as his "children" so he could live on forever through us?

Most people believe that children are a great gift, but I find them a mixed blessing, truthfully. It's not that I don't love my own, nor found an appreciation for my own parents and all they have experienced through this life all through my years as parents as well. The problem is that when you evaluate your own world, you realize it is nothing but a vicious cycle of being educated in public schools, trained to follow rules, become a law abiding citizen, follow the rules, become mind numbed by entertainment, pay your bills, raise another generation of followers to the machine, retire (maybe), then die.

It is a never ending cycle of insanity in my opinion with no lasting value.

This life reminds me of the old commercial about cocaine abuse. The actor says he uses cocaine so he can work longer and harder so he can buy more cocaine, so he can work longer and harder, so he can buy more cocaine. The whole time he walks in a circle, faster and faster.

It seems children in the world have become nothing more than fuel for the next phase of human misery and slavery mainly to be pawns in the game of destruction.

I love them to death, but that is a selfish reason to wish that they live a life of crap just because I cherish them, and believe me our children will live a life of crap without intervention.

[eldingo12]

Most people believe that children are a great gift, but I find them a mixed blessing, truthfully. It's not that I don't love my own, nor found an appreciation for my own parents and all they have experienced through this life all through my years as parents as well. The problem is that when you evaluate your own world, you realize it is nothing but a vicious cycle of being educated in public schools, trained to follow rules, become a law abiding citizen, follow the rules, become mind numbed by entertainment, pay your bills, raise another generation of followers to the machine, retire (maybe), then die.

It is a never ending cycle of insanity in my opinion with no lasting value.

This life reminds me of the old commercial about cocaine abuse. The actor says he uses cocaine so he can work longer and harder so he can buy more cocaine, so he can work longer and harder, so he can buy more cocaine. The whole time he walks in a circle, faster and faster.

It seems children in the world have become nothing more than fuel for the next phase of human misery and slavery mainly to be pawns in the game of destruction.

I love them to death, but that is a selfish reason to wish that they live a life of crap just because I cherish them, and believe me our children will live a life of crap without intervention.

Whoa, that is utterly depressing... Are you off of your meds? Seriously though, the system can be changed, you people just seem too lazy to do anything about it. Me, I try to change one person at a time. If they can change one person, and that person changes one person, and so on we can change the world. It won't take generations if you're willing to work for it. Your world is not the one I plan on leaving for my children, theirs will be better.

[Nu Kua]

You sound very sad, UV. I wish there was something I could do for you.

I love them to death, but that is a selfish reason to wish that they live a life of crap just because I cherish them, and believe me our children will live a life of crap without intervention.

Not if I can help it! Everything I teach my children is geared with their survival- spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical, in mind. It is true we can only do so much, but the best thing we can do for our children is teach them to take responsibility for themselves and their actions, to respect the diversity of life, have love for the earth and tend it well, and to honor the Spirit in all.
Truthfully, the first 7 years of a child are key, and that is the foundation he or she will build upon for the rest of their lives.

My ancestors planted for me before I was born, so do I plant for those who will come after me. Talmud

[weederbro]

Hey eldingo12!
It's nice to av a laff innit?
Mate, I was trying to de-emphasise the utilitarianism implied when speaking of our 'purpose' is all. The quote you used stopped before the part where I say they're for love, relationship and life, as against making you look good, bringing in extra cash and cooking ya dinna!
Ya took the words right outa my mouth when you asked UV if he'd taken his meds man.
But what he said has a certain resonance (shiver). And yeah, one person at a time man. No need for a mission statement. Just live life shining like the sun. Reps to you NuKua, couldn't have said it better meself luv!!!!

[Jake99]

The way of the new world that is outlined in the bible is so rejected by man that the only way that system could ever be adopted globally is if the body of christ in the flesh was leading the way.

And to be the actual messiah you would have had to meet the requirements of the bible. The determining factor is set at about 300 prophecies and or miracles left in his wake. Mathematically for one man to perform 8 prophicies in a lifetime is hard to believe and yet about 300 is what man is told by the bible to be convinced by.

Expect that the messiahs ways are not mans ways and that he speaks out against the nations with a sharp tongue.

I have sucessfully demonstrated and defended many strange and unusual actions methods and abilities along my way that resulted in fullfillment of prophecies and miracles.

I have worked very hard with the gift I was given at birth so that man would one day live in the garden of heaven on earth that is promised in the bible.

I would be surprized if I did not perform about 300 prophecies and or miracles at this point in my life. It may actually be much higher than 300 since there were many times when everything prophetic was unfolding very quickly in my life as if God was on speed.

I consider the attached court documents from events near Y2K to be about 25 fullfilled prophecies and they were extremely tough ones against the highest risks and odds possible. I had to bear a larger weapon than the courts had ever seen before and I punched them as hard as possible not only on the way in but also every step of the way and on the way out 2 years later. An opinion and legal determination riddled with biblical evidence from the judge who frequently cryed at the bench is outlined. Some of the best demonstrations were during the dozens of court appearances that led up to the trials of a man claiming to be and acting like the second coming of christ.

If you want other miracles you need only look at the hi speed bread and cake factories I redesigned and or managed. Or at my athletic, legal. military or competative accomplishments. Only superman could do what I have done and yet man can also be where I have been and where we as people need to go.

Please check out the conclusion of the second trial I endured and other aspects of my life that I risked for mankind along the way.

My first trial for violation of a restraining order had a similar ending. I acknolwleged that I did what the prosecution said I did and won based on rule of law which bound the jury of my peers verdict as irrelevant.

What would superman do, what would the messiah do if he saw what man has done and is doing to this planet. Christ would do as I have done.

http://s16.photobucket.com/albums/b5...rent=scan3.jpg

[jeffweeder]

Christ would do as I have done.

Very clever, and its nice to see you differentiating between yourself and Christ as 2 SEPERATE entities.

[UVsaturated]

Whoa, that is utterly depressing... Are you off of your meds? Seriously though, the system can be changed, you people just seem too lazy to do anything about it. Me, I try to change one person at a time. If they can change one person, and that person changes one person, and so on we can change the world. It won't take generations if you're willing to work for it. Your world is not the one I plan on leaving for my children, theirs will be better.

Thats a lofty goal that I too have held, but you are forgetting what I previously told you. You are making a conditional statement that you can again change the world when it is conditional on other people. You even say so in what I am quoting of you.

You think it is a matter of changing one person at a time, and getting them to "see the light" or however you want to describe it, but the fact remains, everyone is divided in their thought process of what is right or wrong. That is what is hindering everyone. You are basing the assumption that you can make the world a better place by convincing people to make a change, and for them to do the same. You don't understand the opposite is working against you at a much higher rate. You aren't going to succeed at what you are proposing.

Not saying your idea isn't beneficial, just that it can't happen.

[UVsaturated]

You sound very sad, UV. I wish there was something I could do for you.

Thanks for the concern. Unfortunately, I feel like the biblical Job.

Not if I can help it! Everything I teach my children is geared with their survival- spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical, in mind. It is true we can only do so much, but the best thing we can do for our children is teach them to take responsibility for themselves and their actions, to respect the diversity of life, have love for the earth and tend it well, and to honor the Spirit in all.
Truthfully, the first 7 years of a child are key, and that is the foundation he or she will build upon for the rest of their lives.

Good advice. I am not so much concerned about what my kids were taught. They aren't terrible or anything, just that I know there are no guarantees in life in spite a parent's best efforts.

I just cannot justify that children are the pinnacle of life just because I love mine. That is besides the point. The conception of children also means you are making the decision to subject them to every wrong that the world throws upon them. Thats a heavy toll, and all parents have done this, whether they make light of it or not. Most people, like me have probably had kids before they were really prepared and I don't mean financially or at the age they actually had them.

I guess its a good thing children are blissful to the world, otherwise they would kill us for being born.

[UVsaturated]

Very clever, and its nice to see you differentiating between yourself and Christ as 2 SEPERATE entities.

I am a much better Christ Jeff. I don't differentiate. I'm like Jake, except I could actually tell you what the salvation is (whether you believe it or not) and when I believe it is to happen, without a shady reference to fixing a bakery without specifics besides being borderless and confronting the court with bows and arrows.

I started a thead on just that topic, and Jake jumped in saying I was to assist him, which I am no man's assistant.

The least he could do is say we could be a team.

Anyways.................

It's hard being a messiah in the world unless you find a way to screw someone covertly, which I am unwilling to do.