Magic and Christianity

[brodyhyde]

I have a queston regarding Magick. If Someone is a Christian can they practice Magick as long as they believe everything comes through God. Elijia, Moses, Aaron, Josua, Elisha...Why can't Magick be seperate frm Witchcraft?

[Traveler]

Magic= power gained and wielded by self in self interest = bad

Miracles = power from God with man of God standing in the gap serving Gods interests = good

[lycanox]

Offcource they can. Why not?
Magic is completely neutral. It can be used for good and evil.

The only reason why christianity is so biased against it is because they used to genocide people that used it before.
But in reality, there is plenty of magic in christianity as well.

[DaSoviet]

“When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire [an ancient occult practice], or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination [detestable] to the LORD…”
-Deuteronomy 18:9-12a

Whoops, guess not.

[Fut004]

Miracles = power from God with man of God standing in the gap serving Gods interests = good

What if "God" grants a human the ability to use "Magic"?
Would it still be bad?

I think the only reason Magic is bad for Christians is because it takes attention away from their God. He's a very selfish and jealous being, so anything that makes him look less mighty is bad.

[DaSoviet]

So anything that makes him look less mighty is bad.

Got it in one mate!

[lycanox]

Whoops, guess not.

That doesn't necessary include the use of magical rituals.

Just the believe in other gods and religions.

[DaSoviet]

That doesn't necessary include the use of magical rituals.

Just the believe in other gods and religions.

Did you not read it...

or one who conjures spells

[olddragon]

Christens are against anything that may challenge them as absolute.
God does not care.

[lycanox]

Did you not read it...

The description in Deuteronomy would outlaw every religion. Even christianity.
If you take it that way.
Its probably far more likely that it was just saying that you go to hell if you don't follow christianity.

[Nu Kua]

You can't really go on the Official Bible to give the answer as to whether or not Christians would use "magic", because so much of it was edited and hacked by the early Catholics. Much of the early Christian writings that were omitted do contain mystical esoterica.

Prayer is a form of magic, if done correctly. You need an emotional connection to the subject matter, a strong sustained visualization of the desired result, project that as if it were already true and then let it go - "give it to "God"- and you've set it up.
It's important to "forget about it", meaning, to stop worrying, because worrying expressed doubt, and doubt closes the mind and the heart. Since all material or physical changes have to begin first as a longing charged with an idea of how to obtain what you want or need, it's important to remain open to possibilities.

Magic and/or the power of God travels the path of least resistance.

There are several studies of how people are affected by the prayers of others, and also of the changes that take place in the brain during prayer or a mystical experience. I think there are so many levels of consciousness that many aren't aware of, and a web of energy that we can connect to and create from- if it is within the realm of possibility.

[DaSoviet]

So let me get this straight.

The Holy Bible is not the best guide to being a good Christian and advise on certain aspects should be sought elsewhere, even though the Bible is "the word of God"?

[lycanox]

They can call it every name they want. But it stays magic.
And lots of things in the bible and christianity can be considered just that.

[Nu Kua]

So let me get this straight.

The Holy Bible is not the best guide to being a good Christian and advise on certain aspects should be sought elsewhere, even though the Bible is "the word of God"?

Yes.
History proves me correct- the Bible as we know it now is nothing more than an overly edited, cut and pasted collection of dubiously authored writings chosen by humans with political motives to maintain the ignorance and subjugation of the common people, in order that they may continue to be submissive to the rule of the Catholic church.
Even if it had of initially been the "word of God" you can hardly make that claim today with a straight face, once you've done the research. And the only reason people believed it was ever THE Word of GOD is because that is what they were told to believe.

For instance, the concept of the Holy Trinity wasn't introduced as an official concept until the Council of Nicea, under Constantine, about 325 AD. It was taught that as God was of three, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, so were the heads of the church- Bishop, Priest, and Deacons... and as God was to be obeyed without question in all of his three manifestations, so were the leaders and the authority of the Church.
The laity did not even have their own copies of the Bible- the Bible wasn't allowed to be printed in ther language of the commoners, even those who could read. Only the three teirs of the church hierarchy were allowed the translations- and then they told the laity what was said and what God expected of them.
If it wasn't for Martin Luther, we'd be in even more of a mess today than what we are.

Yeah there are shreds of truth remaining, a bit of historical accuracy and some true beauty, as well. I enjoy the Bible- but if people want to gain a real understanding of what the early Christian movement was all about, and of the diversity of thought and practice among the earliest followers of the message, they simply must take the time to peruse as many of the earliest documents as they can, and gain their own truth of the situation and teachings from that.

[DaSoviet]

So we can all come to the conclusion that everyone is safe to practice magik.

Yet at the same time, run the risk of not being allowed into Heaven?

[lycanox]

Assuming the direct the rituals to god and company, yes.

But you can probably raise the same question about being gay, premarital sex, abortion and such.

[DaSoviet]

Assuming the direct the rituals to god and company, yes.

But you can probably raise the same question about being gay, premarital sex, abortion and such.

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm an Atheist. I'm all about letting people have personal freedom's in all that.

I just think it's kinda like having double standards. For example the Bible states that Gays are an abomination.

Yet some Gays have the urge to campaign to get married with God as their witness in a church... See where I'm coming from?

[Nu Kua]

The Holy Bible is not the best guide to being a good Christian and advise on certain aspects should be sought elsewhere, even though the Bible is "the word of God"?

I thought about this a few minutes while cooking breakfast- actually, the Bible as it is would be the best guide to being a "good Christian" as that is what the average Christian uses for a guidebook.
The other writings, documents, letters, ect that were condemned as heresy are where one would look who is looking for the whole truth. Somebody said "If you want the truth, see what the heretics have to say."
The Old Testament of the Christian Bible is almost word for word the same as the Tanakh.
Yet why not also read and learn of the Jewish mystical traditions as well?
Take some of the early Jewish works- such as the Zohar and the Sepher Yezirah, the Qabala.
There's some High Magik, right there, buddy...

I think, if we were to compile a collection of books that might be considered "the word of God" we should include those. But it wouldn't be meet to teach people how to be in charge of their own lives, without going through the authority of the Church, now would it?

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm an Atheist. I'm all about letting people have personal freedom's in all that.

I just think it's kinda like having double standards. For example the Bible states that Gays are an abomination.

Yet some Gays have the urge to campaign to get married with God as their witness in a church... See where I'm coming from?

Yes, I do see where you are coming from. Those Gays have the audacity to use their own minds to discern what "God is Love" actually means. They are obviously not content to bow to the rule of the Church.

[brodyhyde]

They can call it every name they want. But it stays magic.
And lots of things in the bible and christianity can be considered just that.

Assuming the direct the rituals to god and company, yes.

But you can probably raise the same question about being gay, premarital sex, abortion and such.

I thought about this a few minutes while cooking breakfast- actually, the Bible as it is would be the best guide to being a "good Christian" as that is what the average Christian uses for a guidebook.
The other writings, documents, letters, ect that were condemned as heresy are where one would look who is looking for the whole truth. Somebody said "If you want the truth, see what the heretics have to say."
The Old Testament of the Christian Bible is almost word for word the same as the Tanakh.
Yet why not also read and learn of the Jewish mystical traditions as well?
Take some of the early Jewish works- such as the Zohar and the Sepher Yezirah, the Qabala.
There's some High Magik, right there, buddy...

I think, if we were to compile a collection of books that might be considered "the word of God" we should include those. But it wouldn't be meet to teach people how to be in charge of their own lives, without going through the authority of the Church, now would it?



Yes, I do see where you are coming from. Those Gays have the audacity to use their own minds to discern what "God is Love" actually means. They are obviously not content to bow to the rule of the Church.

I think youu guys are right on. If you really think about it, A human is the one that wrote down that the bible is the word of God, yet the bible tells us that all men are fallible, so how can you really trust that the Bible is giving you the whole story. Read the Gospel of James DaSoviet, it is one of the Nag Hammadi texts, and tell me what you think. As far as Magick goes, Read 2 kings 2:8

"8 Elijah took his cloak, rolled it up and struck the water with it. The water divided to the right and to the left, and the two of them crossed over on dry ground."

[Traveler]

Sometimes I find it hard to believe what I am reading, truly judgment falls on the generation that is ready for it.

Ok, give this some consideration.

No mortal man can move in the supernatural under their own strength. To do requires that they tap into a power source external to themselves.

Now there are two spiritual forces at work in this world and they are in opposition to one another. The one is greater but not so easily available as it has a whole lot of conditions attached. The other is more readily available but carries a delayed price that is not normally considered when invoked.

The first comes from God and will only operate in the interests of God. But is the most powerful

The second will cater to the individual and feed the individuals desires and greed etc but in the end will consume that individual. This is the one you consider neutral but the fact is that it cares not what you use it for so long as you use it because it opens the door to use you which is what its objective is

You choose!

[weederbro]

To a bible reader, it is obvious that the NT is intimately linked with the OT. The NT teachings do not contradict the Old, just FUlfil. The NT as it is, is what was arrived at by many a good man who were right to be fussy when it came to what was accepted into the canon. You can't elevate the NT to greater heights by adding anything. It reveals Jesus for who He was, a fulfilment of God's promises.

When reading Irenaus I hear Paul's concern regarding the importance of teaching correct doctrine. Teachings suggesting pantheism or other things not characteristic of the Word, were treated as they should have been. Things like,' For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven' are soooo not right.
Traveler is right about the distinction between magic and miracle. The Father is trying to protect you. No one dances with the devil and gets away clean...

[lycanox]

But isn't praying to ask god for a miracle, similar to asking the spirits for a miracle.

It stays magic. Only this time the power comes from god.

[weederbro]

I presume that people interested in this kind of thing believe there is a spirit realm.

The one who claims to be THE ONE GOD is SPIRIT

He tells us that spirits' rebelled and are hell bent on screwing over the children (us) using half truths and dirty tricks, and as it turns out, the apostate church in all its forms.

He warns us against 'hanging' with them. The price?

everlasting seperation in outer darkness, no friends to party with.

A person who believes in the spirit world would surely have to think twice?
Or be pretty confident that the spirit he was playing with didn't have a FATHER!

[Nu Kua]

One can practice magick and not believe in spirits.

Magick works through the levels of a "connecting web" that every living thing alive is connected to. This is known by many names but like God is somewhat undefinable. It is something like a consciousness. I wish I could show you the pictures in my mind, because I find the words lacking but the visual is full.
Everything that eventually manifests on the material/physical plane has its beginning from this energy source or whatever we might name it, like mushrooms that emerge from mycellium.
Prayer also works along this level of connectivity, as long as it is the proper type of prayer, which does not involve passively begging God for a miracle.

As for the spirit mind in general, because events on this level often triggers often strong emotional responses, because it is hard to reach in this day and age of constant outward stimulation and noise, as well as the fact that often the communication on this level is not language based but is instead symbol based, we've mistakenly come to the conclusion it is "mysterious" and supernatural, somehow weird and untrustworthy.

It is none of those things.

[olddragon]

I can not explain it as well as all of you have.
Take my word for it, there is magic in our being.
Most people have suppressed these thoughts because of religion.
Or you get the eye roll, if you say you believe it.