Tolerance

[Traveler]

Tolerance.


This is a little something that I discovered that I think you all might be interested to know so I am starting a short thread on it, You guys can take it further if you want to.

I did a search on the word tolerance in the bible so as to get some sort of perspective on the subject from a spiritual standpoint and this is what I found.

The words Tolerant, Tolerance and Tolerate do not exist in the Bible. They are not mentioned even once in all those books spanning all those years. The closest I came was to find the word Tolerable as in “It will be more Tolerable for the cities of Sodom and Gamora than .....”

There are the words Long suffering, Patience, Forgiveness etc but not Tolerate.

I do not believe that this was by accident, I think that it was a warning placed there for the last days when it would come to light as the anti-christ makes his rise to power. It points to the core of the deception that he will use.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Traveler and thank-you for your thoughts,

Tolerance.

The word Tolerance is a combination of compassion and mercy and is represented as the measuring stick, as in how close do you measure up; do you fall within that which is tolerable?

This is a little something that I discovered that I think you all might be interested to know so I am starting a short thread on it, You guys can take it further if you want to.

Then maybe we should all run the race!

I did a search on the word tolerance in the bible so as to get some sort of perspective on the subject from a spiritual standpoint and this is what I found.

The words Tolerant, Tolerance and Tolerate do not exist in the Bible. They are not mentioned even once in all those books spanning all those years. The closest I came was to find the word Tolerable as in “It will be more Tolerable for the cities of Sodom and Gamora than .....”

You may not have found the word Tolerance but the whole of the New Testament is about tolerance

3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known: 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

There are the words Long suffering, Patience, Forgiveness etc but not Tolerate.

I do not believe that this was by accident, I think that it was a warning placed there for the last days when it would come to light as the anti-christ makes his rise to power. It points to the core of the deception that he will use.

The anti-christ is a legalist, offering no opportunity for those that are suffering, having no hope, compassion nor mercy for humanity but offering only condemnation. The anti-christ would be a prime example of intolerance, seeing nothing of value in those that refuse to follow his doctrine!

[Traveler]

The scriptures you have shown show how God has dealt with the sins of the world. he did not tolerate them he dealt with them by fulfilling the requirements of the law through Christ's sacrifice.

But the word tolerate is still not to be found in Gods volcabliary. Although the word was obviously known it is not used. It actually does not exist in the scriptures, nada, nothing, not there at all, left out. Absent!

The anti christ will be the most tolerant sinner out there. Not only will he tolerate every sin but he will actually promote it. But what he will not tolerate is those that speak out against those sins and cramp his style.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Traveler and thank-you for your dissension,

The scriptures you have shown show how God has dealt with the sins of the world. he did not tolerate them he dealt with them by fulfilling the requirements of the law through Christ's sacrifice.

You are obviously in denial as to the meaning of Agape and the command to Love your enemy or the scripture in relation to forgiveness.

85:1 Lord, thou hast been favourable unto thy land: thou hast brought back the captivity of Jacob.

85:2 Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.

85:3 Thou hast taken away all thy wrath: thou hast turned thyself from the fierceness of thine anger.

85:4 Turn us, O God of our salvation, and cause thine anger toward us to cease.

85:5 Wilt thou be angry with us for ever? wilt thou draw out thine anger to all generations?

85:6 Wilt thou not revive us again: that thy people may rejoice in thee?

85:7 Shew us thy mercy, O LORD, and grant us thy salvation.

85:8 I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.

85:9 Surely his salvation is nigh them that fear him; that glory may dwell in our land.

85:10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

85:11 Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.

85:12 Yea, the LORD shall give that which is good; and our land shall yield her increase.

85:13 Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of his steps.

(King James Bible, Psalms)

But the word tolerate is still not to be found in Gods volcabliary. Although the word was obviously known it is not used. It actually does not exist in the scriptures, nada, nothing, not there at all, left out. Absent!

The word tolerate comes from the Latin and means to endure.

33:14 Let my lord, I pray thee, pass over before his servant: and I will lead on softly, according as the cattle that goeth before me and the children be able to endure, until I come unto my lord unto Seir.

(King James Bible, Genesis)

6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.


10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

(King James Bible, Hebrews)


Sounds to me as if there is quite a bit of tolerance here.

The anti christ will be the most tolerant sinner out there. Not only will he tolerate every sin but he will actually promote it. But what he will not tolerate is those that speak out against those sins and cramp his style.

I believe there is a difference between promoting sin and tolerating sin. If you look at the Pharisees as an example they were anti Christ and were enforcers of the Law, the same Law that they failed to follow, thus the antichrist is a noncompliant enforcer

[Sabacthani]

Although I've dropped anything that resembles structured religion I still browse these threads out of curiosity.


I have one word for you traveler - owned. ROFL

I have always liked your method of posting Ggtmk - keep it up.

[Cartesiantheater]

Essence of tolerance, as depicted in the Bible:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...nterface=print


No tolerance? Yet Jesus tells a parable of the good a "despicable Sumariton" does?

Tolerance isn't just about gays, Traveler. It is about race and culture as well. I do believe that famous parable drives the point home, does it not?

"Don't judge a book by its cover?" Be patient and loving to those you do not understand. Is that not the essense of both "tolerance" and much of what Jesus taught?

Tolerance: fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

What about the debate of whether gentiles could be baptised? Do you believe the apostle Paul was wrong in tolerating these non-Jews?

What of Jesus tolerating the tax collectors, sinners, prostitutes, etc? Was he wrong?

Hell, what about God continually tolerating mankind's failures through the ages and his willingness to forgive? That isn't Biblical?


The word "tolerance" itself may not be in the Bible Traveler, but the action of tolerance is in there again and again and again.

[Traveler]

For starters this thread is not about the gay movements its about the word tolerance and can be applied to many areas.

The word tolerate was know as it is found in the word tolerable but for some reason the other words associated with it are not there.

There are MANY THINGS THAT CAN BE FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES WHERE THIS WORD CAN BE USED. But the words longsuffering and endure are used instead. That is why I have made the remark that I think that this action is deliberate. It is a cryptic message left for those of the last generation as a warning of the method used to deceive the whole world which the antichrist is supposed to accomplish to perfection.

The antichrist is going to be denying the original God but worshipping a new god that was not known before which he will be giving pleasant things to. A god of fortresses. He will cause discept and deception to prosper and will reward those who ridicule the God of the scriptures.

There will be no pretence at the bibical laws as found with the pharisees. The antichrist will not even pretend to have any interest in the scriptures, they are fairytails and fables to him.

You guys may not believe me but remember what I have said. As time goes on you will see that these things are already coming about.

[Traveler]

Although I've dropped anything that resembles structured religion I still browse these threads out of curiosity.


I have one word for you traveler - owned. ROFL

I have always liked your method of posting Ggtmk - keep it up.

You jumped the gun there a bit.

Next I may have to haul out the verses to prove my point. they are there.

[Cartesiantheater]

For starters this thread is not about the gay movements its about the word tolerance and can be applied to many areas.

The word tolerate was know as it is found in the word tolerable but for some reason the other words associated with it are not there.

There are MANY THINGS THAT CAN BE FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES WHERE THIS WORD CAN BE USED. But the words longsuffering and endure are used instead. That is why I have made the remark that I think that this action is deliberate. It is a cryptic message left for those of the last generation as a warning of the method used to deceive the whole world which the antichrist is supposed to accomplish to perfection.

The antichrist is going to be denying the original God but worshipping a new god that was not known before which he will be giving pleasant things to. A god of fortresses. He will cause discept and deception to prosper and will reward those who ridicule the God of the scriptures.

There will be no pretence at the bibical laws as found with the pharisees. The antichrist will not even pretend to have any interest in the scriptures, they are fairytails and fables to him.

You guys may not believe me but remember what I have said. As time goes on you will see that these things are already coming about.

Ah, I see. So, even though tolerance happened in the Bible, the word itself was left out so that the "elect" would have a clue as to what evils to watch out for in the end times.

Ah, if you put it that way, it makes a strange sort of sense.

However, I have one objection: If I am not mistaken aren't the secrets of the Bible supposed to be rather simple and overlooked by those who think too hard? I do recall that "the wisdom of the lord is foolishness in the eyes of men." Of course, on the other hand, there are some very deep mysteries, especially those pertaining to the anti-christ.


I don't think I read your first post carefully enough. I'll give you a 50-50 on this one Traveler.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Traveler and thank-you for your clarification,

For starters this thread is not about the gay movements its about the word tolerance and can be applied to many areas.

You would have to say that it is more about true worship and the intolerance to any other form of worship?

The word tolerate was know as it is found in the word tolerable but for some reason the other words associated with it are not there.

You my friend are splitting hairs, desiring not to find a word because it would mean that you would have to remove walls of separation, seeing people as equal.

The question that must be asked is are all equal in the Body of Christ?

10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

When it says able to bear it, it is speaking of the ability to tolerate that which is placed before you.

There are MANY THINGS THAT CAN BE FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES WHERE THIS WORD CAN BE USED. But the words longsuffering and endure are used instead. That is why I have made the remark that I think that this action is deliberate. It is a cryptic message left for those of the last generation as a warning of the method used to deceive the whole world which the antichrist is supposed to accomplish to perfection.

I could make an argument for the fact that the translators chose not to use the word Tolerate because of their own desire for elitism, for in fact the word exists in both Hebrew and Greek versions but is absent in the English. Paul speaks strongly of the need for Tolerance and this theme is central to the teachings of Christ and yet you would reject it in favor of a more intolerant approach?

The antichrist is going to be denying the original God but worshipping a new god that was not known before which he will be giving pleasant things to. A god of fortresses. He will cause discept and deception to prosper and will reward those who ridicule the God of the scriptures.

Chapter 17 of Revelation states twice that this is not a new phenomena.

17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

(King James Bible, Revelation)

John makes it very clear that this beast existed in the past, does not exist in his time but will exist again in the future.

In Job it is referred to as the Behemoth

40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

40:18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

40:19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

40:20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.

40:21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.

40:22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.

40:23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.

40:24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

(King James Bible, Job)

How about a reference from Enoch

4 And Michael sent another angel from among the holy ones and he raised me up, and when he had raised me up my spirit returned; for I had not been able to endure the look of this host, and the 5 commotion and the quaking of the heaven. And Michael said unto me: ' Why art thou disquieted with such a vision ? Until this day lasted the day of His mercy; and He hath been merciful and 6 long-suffering towards those who dwell on the earth. And when the day, and the power, and the punishment, and the judgement come, which the Lord of Spirits hath prepared for those who worship not the righteous law, and for those who deny the righteous judgement, and for those who take His name in vain-that day is prepared, for the elect a covenant, but for sinners an inquisition. 25 When the punishment of the Lord of Spirits shall rest upon them, it shall rest in order that the punishment of the Lord of Spirits may not come, in vain, and it shall slay the children with their mothers and the children with their fathers. Afterwards the judgement shall take place according to His mercy and His patience.' 7 And on that day were two monsters parted, a female monster named Leviathan, to dwell in the 8 abysses of the ocean over the fountains of the waters. But the male is named Behemoth, who occupied with his breast a waste wilderness named Duidain, on the east of the garden where the elect and righteous dwell, where my grandfather was taken up, the seventh from Adam, the first 9 man whom the Lord of Spirits created. And I besought the other angel that he should show me the might of those monsters, how they were parted on one day and cast, the one into the abysses 10 of the sea, and the other unto the dry land of the wilderness. And he said to me: ' Thou son of man, herein thou dost seek to know what is hidden.' 11 And the other angel who went with me and showed me what was hidden told me what is first and last in the heaven in the height, and beneath the earth in the depth, and at the ends of the 12 heaven, and on the foundation of the heaven. And the chambers of the winds, and how the winds are divided, and how they are weighed, and (how) the portals of the winds are reckoned, each according to the power of the wind, and the power of the lights of the moon, and according to the power that is fitting: and the divisions of the stars according to their names, and how all the divisions 13 are divided. And the thunders according to the places where they fall, and all the divisions that are made among the lightnings that it may lighten, and their host that they may at once obey.

(Other Apocrypha, The Book of Enoch)

There will be no pretence at the bibical laws as found with the pharisees. The antichrist will not even pretend to have any interest in the scriptures, they are fairytails and fables to him.

I will return to this subject to show that in fact there is a pretense.

You guys may not believe me but remember what I have said. As time goes on you will see that these things are already coming about.

You are correct that things are happening and the antichrist is being revealed.

[Nu Kua]

For all we know, the word tolerance could have been wiped out of the book and replaced with other words at one of the many councils and courts set up to sort and edit the Bible. That is certainly what was done with many other concepts that might have been common among the early Christians but which the politico of the time deemed heretical, because they did not support the mindless obeying of the hierarchy that they were trying to establish.

"Love they Neighbor"

The word Tolerance is used depending on the translation you use.
In the NIV:
Romans 2:3,4
But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

In the KJV:
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

In the NAS:
Ephesians 4:1-3
1Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.


Same verse, KJV:
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Other translations also include the word "tolerance"- not all, but others.


In the Thesaurus, "Tolerance" is listed as a word with the same or similar meaning as "Forbearance",
and the definition given of forbearance is
1. The act of forbearing.
2. Tolerance and restraint in the face of provocation; patience.
3. The quality of being forbearing.


We can safely say that the word used depended upon who was doing the translating and why, as well as the time frame- what words were commonly used. Remember as well the KJV was translated in the Kings English, not the English used by the commoners- maybe there was a difference.
So we can go through the KJV and replace the word forbearance with tolerance.

[Traveler]

Does pose an interesting question doesn't it. I'll be doing a search through the original greek to see what comes up over the next few days. As far as Bible doctoring is concerned, I would say that this is a very recent phenomenon. The newer translations do indeed differ from the received text.

However on reflecting on this whole issue what I see here is the perfect Christian trap.

On the one hand you have the traditional biblical doctrine that calls for God to be the focal point and for repentance and the pursuit of the Holy walk.

On the other you have the call for tolerance including that which one is supposed to be repenting of with the pursuit of personal happiness and self gratification.

Could there be any tool that could demonise the Christian more?

According to the descriptions the antichist will overcome the saints in the last days by wearing them down which observation shows is in fact coming about.

No, I think that I am definitely on to something here and am going to be digging a lot deeper

[Nu Kua]

On the one hand you have the traditional biblical doctrine that calls for God to be the focal point and for repentance and the pursuit of the Holy walk.

On the other you have the call for tolerance including that which one is supposed to be repenting of with the pursuit of personal happiness and self gratification.

Could it be that the pursuit of the Holy Walk changed to include being tolerant?

I did a little more reading and comparing this morning. One of the translations translated the word "tolerate" much more frequently, and every "tolerate" was associated with the Old Testament. What I noticed was in every single example found int he old testament, the word tolerate was used in a negative since- as in "do not tolerate this, do not tolerate that" and in an angry, narrow-minded tone. (I do understand why the context)

The examples in the New Testament, though, translated as you remember "forbearance" to "tolerance" and here it is in a positive and loving way- tolerate basically seems to me, love.

Now wasn't the birth of Jesus said to usher in a new age of love and tolerance?

Also, it may depend on how we are defining "tolerant". I do not see how it means to accept something you find aversive, or to condone it in the name of whatever. I would take it to mean more of a live and let live towards people who live differently, as long as they weren't actively and blatantly trying to push their way onto you.

Birds of a feather and all of that... maybe to be tolerant is that, while you do not accept something as the right way, you cease to place much energy in combating it. You would circle with your people in peace, and those others would be with their people, in peace.
(unless it is something truly evil, like child abuse, at which point we'd be entirely wrong to ignore it)

[Traveler]

The context is that you yourself are a sinner saved by grace so do not point the crooked finger in a manner that you are better in any way. But it does not condone the sin. Therein lies the difference. To tolerate means to allow the sin to be when in fact you are required to repent of it and do it no more.

Big difference.

[weederbro]

In the end it's the agape, it all comes down to this.

I'd like to say,"OK, we all understand why and where folk are comin from. Bless ya's and when does the party start?...haha!


Yeah I know, it starts RIGHT HERE ON AO! Haha...

[cmar1965]

GGTMK,

Perhaps you could explain the difference between almah and betulah to Traveler as well, considering "translation" is quite obviously an issue for him.

Oh.. Traveler,

Is the word RAPTURE in the bible?

[Nu Kua]

The context is that you yourself are a sinner saved by grace so do not point the crooked finger in a manner that you are better in any way. But it does not condone the sin. Therein lies the difference. To tolerate means to allow the sin to be when in fact you are required to repent of it and do it no more.

Big difference.

"To tolerate requires the sin to be when in fact you are required to repent of it and do no more"

I was thinking of the tolerance of others beliefs and non-harmful-to-others actions. So it seems you are speaking of it to mean acceptance of what you consider engaging in the actions of a sin by the self- that instead of accepting what might be considered a flaw or a hindrance to your relationship with God, you should not tolerate it and should instead work to be rid of it.

The question might be, at what point do you consider tolerating others who are from a different cloth, who might be engaging in sin, to go into you condoning the sin? And is there a point when the sins of others would affect your personal relationship with God?

I know you get picked on a lot for being such a fundy. (even from me in the past before I got to know you better) I remember coming into AO angry as hell at all the Christians, because I saw the label, not the person, and you and I have had a few debates. But over time, it seems our relationship has smoothed out, and while I know you do not condone some of the things I speak of, you must be tolerating them because now we have actual conversations.
The same for me; I am learning tolerance too, and am working really hard on trying to get past the labels of a person and get to know the person underneath. That is what I think tolerance is, an attempt to honor the Spirit in the other person, and not focus on the body or the labels.
I know we are tolerating each other because we can converse like adults, without always trying to "convert" the other. Maybe it has a lot to do with respect...

That reminds me of the story of the resurrection (Gnostic) where Peter saw two Christs- one hanging on the cross, dying brutally from wounds and weariness, and the other Jesus above it, laughing because, he said, those people focused on the body where so blind, because what really made Jesus was not the body, but the mind/soul/heart/spirit that once dwelled inside the body. They just weren't "getting it". Then he goes on to predict that this same blindness and worship of "what not is real" will cause all sorts of trouble generations to come- and it has!

I interpret that as saying what was hanging on the cross, being physical, was not the "real" Jesus, (because then he'd be dead) but was an outside representation instead. I think most of us are given names and offices and develop personalities that are not really who we are, which we are spirits living on earth through the body, and to try to tolerate the differences in the outside things means to try to see and relate to the spiritual being-ness inside, instead. Especially when first meeting others, everything about us is either a mask or a shield, know it or not, but like Jesus represented, the real Spirit of a person actually goes beyond those things.

So maybe that's what tolerance is all about?

I think that the world "tolerance" is not to be found in the KJV is simply a matter of semantics. We do not use the same words they used in the same way; for instance we do not say "thee" or "thou", we say "you" and "yours". But they mean the same thing.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello cmar1965 and thank-you for your revelation,

GGTMK,

Perhaps you could explain the difference between almah and betulah to Traveler as well, considering "translation" is quite obviously an issue for him.

It would be best that we allow him to uncover the truth for himself and not accuse him of some kind of fornication.

[Traveler]

GGTMK,

Perhaps you could explain the difference between almah and betulah to Traveler as well, considering "translation" is quite obviously an issue for him.

Oh.. Traveler,

Is the word RAPTURE in the bible?

The word rapture is a modern word used to describe an event that is clearly described in the scriptures but this event is not to be confused with the second coming.

In revelation a description of it is given in the breaking of the sixth seal but Jesus does not actually set foot on the earth at this time. He simply collects his own.

I take it we are now in for another mock fest?

[Traveler]

"To tolerate requires the sin to be when in fact you are required to repent of it and do no more"

I was thinking of the tolerance of others beliefs and non-harmful-to-others actions. So it seems you are speaking of it to mean acceptance of what you consider engaging in the actions of a sin by the self- that instead of accepting what might be considered a flaw or a hindrance to your relationship with God, you should not tolerate it and should instead work to be rid of it.

The question might be, at what point do you consider tolerating others who are from a different cloth, who might be engaging in sin, to go into you condoning the sin? And is there a point when the sins of others would affect your personal relationship with God?

I know you get picked on a lot for being such a fundy. (even from me in the past before I got to know you better) I remember coming into AO angry as hell at all the Christians, because I saw the label, not the person, and you and I have had a few debates. But over time, it seems our relationship has smoothed out, and while I know you do not condone some of the things I speak of, you must be tolerating them because now we have actual conversations.
The same for me; I am learning tolerance too, and am working really hard on trying to get past the labels of a person and get to know the person underneath. That is what I think tolerance is, an attempt to honor the Spirit in the other person, and not focus on the body or the labels.
I know we are tolerating each other because we can converse like adults, without always trying to "convert" the other. Maybe it has a lot to do with respect...

That reminds me of the story of the resurrection (Gnostic) where Peter saw two Christs- one hanging on the cross, dying brutally from wounds and weariness, and the other Jesus above it, laughing because, he said, those people focused on the body where so blind, because what really made Jesus was not the body, but the mind/soul/heart/spirit that once dwelled inside the body. They just weren't "getting it". Then he goes on to predict that this same blindness and worship of "what not is real" will cause all sorts of trouble generations to come- and it has!

I interpret that as saying what was hanging on the cross, being physical, was not the "real" Jesus, (because then he'd be dead) but was an outside representation instead. I think most of us are given names and offices and develop personalities that are not really who we are, which we are spirits living on earth through the body, and to try to tolerate the differences in the outside things means to try to see and relate to the spiritual being-ness inside, instead. Especially when first meeting others, everything about us is either a mask or a shield, know it or not, but like Jesus represented, the real Spirit of a person actually goes beyond those things.

So maybe that's what tolerance is all about?

I think that the world "tolerance" is not to be found in the KJV is simply a matter of semantics. We do not use the same words they used in the same way; for instance we do not say "thee" or "thou", we say "you" and "yours". But they mean the same thing.

It is quite possible that this is all due to a preference on the part of the translators of the KJV but I am still going through the original greek texts from which all the others are translated to see what I can find. Its a bit of a slow slog as I need to do it with a dictionary for the most part.

But wether by accident or not it has highlighted an interesting bit of insight concerning the current state of world social affairs. If there is more to this I will probably be finding it.

But as your concept of tolerance with others of a different cloth. There is a clear distinction drawn between what is to be allowed within the body and what is found without. In the world in general anything goes. Big sin, small sin, they are all the same. But the Christian is supposed to separate themselves from the world to be a peculiar Holy nation unto God in Christ. The sins of the world are not to be brought into the body. The reason should be quite obvious, It is the introduction of the worlds sins into the modern church that has so watered down the structures that now when you look at the church you no longer see any difference between it and the world in general. It has become hypocrisy and all can see it.

[Nu Kua]

But as your concept of tolerance with others of a different cloth. There is a clear distinction drawn between what is to be allowed within the body and what is found without. In the world in general anything goes. Big sin, small sin, they are all the same. But the Christian is supposed to separate themselves from the world to be a peculiar Holy nation unto God in Christ. The sins of the world are not to be brought into the body. The reason should be quite obvious, It is the introduction of the worlds sins into the modern church that has so watered down the structures that now when you look at the church you no longer see any difference between it and the world in general. It has become hypocrisy and all can see it.

OK I see where you are coming from now. It reminds me of the Essenes, or any other sect that its members strive to separate themselves from the world, in order to be closer to God and be like a living church unto yourselves.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Traveler and thank-you for inviting us on your journey,

It is quite possible that this is all due to a preference on the part of the translators of the KJV but I am still going through the original greek texts from which all the others are translated to see what I can find. Its a bit of a slow slog as I need to do it with a dictionary for the most part.

You may want to examine the Greek word that corresponds to Strong's number 5297. I found the Greek translation for Tolerance and this was the corresponding word. This word translates as endure. The same word has no Strong's number in the Hebrew for almost the entire Old Testament and yet is used extensively in Psalms specifically chapter 136.

[cmar1965]

The word rapture is a modern word used to describe an event that is clearly described in the scriptures but this event is not to be confused with the second coming.

In revelation a description of it is given in the breaking of the sixth seal but Jesus does not actually set foot on the earth at this time. He simply collects his own.

I take it we are now in for another mock fest?

My reasoning for bringing up RAPTURE is because you are the one going on semantics as to the world TOLERANCE not actually being in the bible.

FYI Rapture is hardly a "modern word" and is actually derived from the latin word RAPTUS and became rapture around 1600CE.

[Traveler]

Hello Traveler and thank-you for inviting us on your journey,



You may want to examine the Greek word that corresponds to Strong's number 5297. I found the Greek translation for Tolerance and this was the corresponding word. This word translates as endure. The same word has no Strong's number in the Hebrew for almost the entire Old Testament and yet is used extensively in Psalms specifically chapter 136.

Thanks for your input.

I am at this stage getting the impression that there may be a time frame associated with the use of the words, hence the choice. To endure for a season but tolerance is grudgingly accepted on a permanent basis.

[Traveler]

My reasoning for bringing up RAPTURE is because you are the one going on semantics as to the world TOLERANCE not actually being in the bible.

FYI Rapture is hardly a "modern word" and is actually derived from the latin word RAPTUS and became rapture around 1600CE.

In other words that word was not in common use when the new testament was actually written. The Latin translation only came later. Hence the scriptures give a description of the event but do not have a single word to portray it.