Origins of Christianity

[JenaS62]

http://truthbeknown.com/origins.htm


This is a great website that explains the origins of Christianity and the parallels between Christianity and Paganism. It's hard to just ignore these facts and they deserve further research by Christians all over the world. I'm not posting this to offend anyone - well at least that is not my intention - but in todays world - it's best to be educated and aware. Or if you prefer the bliss of ignorance - move along and don't click on the link.

[Crimepunisher]

This is a great website that explains the origins of Christianity and the parallels between Christianity and Paganism. It's hard to just ignore these facts and they deserve further research by Christians all over the world.

Highly agree. My mother is a non-practicing Wiccan and I kind learned pretty quickly about the similarities and history between Paganism and Christianity. Excellent find though. Bookmarked for sure.

[weederbro]

Hello Jena,
Yeah, it's worse than I'd thought, christianity kinda got fouled and dropped the ball. And turned into a contradiction. If ya check out Doomer's thread 'will christianity survive?' #5, it's a given the scriptures were 'fiddled' with with Latinised' renderings of certain words into the English translations. Caution would be good, as Neil Young says, 'there's more to the picture than meets the eye'!

[Sweetwilliam]

http://www.yahweh.com


SweetWilliam

[The Wicked Priest]

I'm having a problem opening up the page (pop-up blocker), but I've heard it all before.

It's all the apostle Paul's fault. He was so concerned with getting converts, he compromised and bastardized the original message of Jesus. Paul made it as easy as possible for pagans to convert... they get to keep the same holidays, they get to keep the same belief system, just change the name from Isis or Mithra to Jesus.

Jesus NEVER claimed that he was divine. Jesus NEVER intended to start a new religion. The Christianity Christians follow today is the brainchild of Paul... someone who never met Jesus.

[jeffweeder]

Yeah, it's worse than I'd thought, christianity kinda got fouled and dropped the ball

They did have the ball though, in those early days right?
When did the ball start bouncing away?
They were first called Christians in Antioch for one reason, and that was that it refered to those men and woman who followed the Messiah around and were with him all the time.

There is your definition..............Chr...Messiah said follow me, not men.
And here we find out what the ball is--its Messiahs teaching.
Where did Messiah get his teaching--the ball?
He got it from the Scriptures?
Where did the Scriptures come from?
God.

How can we be convinced of this?

Those Scriptures suggest that it is Gods words given to men in the revealing of himself...and his plan.
So the plan is revealed right from the start (how this ball will bounce its way through history, and even how high it will bounce and to whome it will bounce to).

The plan began with the forming of the hebrew nation, and would bounce its way through them.
Indeed they have kept a record of their history, which is known as the Scriptures.
ITS a comprehensive detailed work, including the family tree, and a very detailed report of their wanderings and why they found themselves in trouble............and how God was going to get them out of trouble.

It defines their homeland and their exiles to other countries.
The stories are verifiable by the fact that we have Jewish communities living in those countries.
Iran has the 3rd largest Jewish community in the world dating back to time of Cyrus-Darius, when Persia took over from the Babylonians. Until recently you had Jews in Iraq (Babylon), they were being forced out when Israel was declared a state. It was the Babylonians who invaded Israel and moved them to that part of the world.

More striking is how God declared from their beginning, their future King who would deliver them.
Striking because we have 300 or so specific predications, written down from the founding of the nation, till the last scriptual book of Malachi--some 400 years before this king was to arrive.
One of those predictions gives you the exact time he would arrive---and that prediction was set in motion by the persian king in around 457BC.

The other 299 then ,should fall into place at that time--and i gotta say it did.

So Messiah Yeshyouare is no myth or some fanciful idea.
So he now has the ball and passes to his disciples who score.
He tells his unbelieving Israel that their land would be left desolate, there temple destroyed, and they would be exiled to the nations of the world.............until one day right at the end of History, the times of Gentiles trampling Jerusalem would be over.

He was right...and controlled that ball beautifuully he did.

If you keep your eye on that ball, youll notice that others are playing a different game, with a totally different ball, but standing on his court...in his ballpark.

[Traveler]

And then you have those who tell you that the original ball never existed so you must come and play with theirs

[jeffweeder]

And then you have those who tell you that the original ball never existed so you must come and play with theirs

HEHEHEH, yeah, ive been waiting for that to be suggested..again. LMHO.

But it 's all written down nevertheless, and its roots go deep into history....and is still practiced by the said- set of people ,what is written in the history of their beloved ancestors.

Look at the Yom Kippur war for instance.
This was a time when you knew from the Sciptures that Israel may be taken off guard.
The enemy knew this would be the best time to attack and overwhelm, because of what was written about what they would be doin...............still didnt do them any good, and Israel won ANOTHER war against the odds...didnt they?

They were doin what you meant to do on yom kippur ...........and still lost.
They won the 6 day war...how facinating was that, How could they possibly win against a 7 nation attack, with superior manpower---planes...etc...etc....etc... in 6 days...cum on.
Surely you must be a little bit intrigued that the whole story is alive and kickiing and the issue of the land of Israel has not gone away...but is staring you right in the face, with exploits that match an OldTestament story.

[Mystery]

And then you have those who tell you that the original ball never existed so you must come and play with theirs

LOL-- I love it!!!

[Mystery]

This is where I think the contorversary thrives. Who cares if pagan ideas and practices are involved. One christian has a christmas tree on Chistmas, others do not. I do not see why it matters. We live in a human world, and we all have different traditions that have come form years ago. It is our hearts that matter. In your heart do you worship that tree or think it is neccessary to you faith in Jesus, if yes, then there is a problem. I am just using the tree as a simple example. But a better one. Those who pray for Mary or saints to pray for them. If that person is praying to like they would God, then a problem, or if they pray to them to pray on their behalf, what is the big deal in that. I get asked to pray for people. My point is, why does all of these things matter? There are too many conflicts amongst the Christians of this world, when in fact they should be in unison with the fact they belief in God and Jesus. There is a quote in the bible that says something about, if one person thinks something is a sin, and one does not, the one who does not think it is a sin should not try to convince the other it is. I can not for the life of me find the exact verse, but if I do I will post it. Anyway, I take it to mean, traditions are not the important issue here, but faith in God and Jesus are. How I choose to show my faith and how another does is simply our human acts.

[weederbro]

Hi Mystery,
All I can say to your post#10 is that I feel there is more you could find out by looking into 'sun deities' on google, it may open a whole new door...

[seashell6867]

I am new here, but I have studies this subject for a very long time. I discovered that many Pagan practices were overtaken by Christianity, but the idea behind them was if they are done to honor Jesus then it is a good thing and in a way things were taken away from Satan when Satan lost his power. Satan lost power when Jesus died on the cross and the glory is now given to Jesus.

Also, as far as the Saints goes; the Catholic Church believes that people who die and have made it to heaven are still a part of the Body of Christ therefore they can pray for your or I just like I could pray for anyone here if they asked me. It's not believed they are God's in any way shape or form and they only have the power allowed to them by God the Father who works through them. Therefore any healings or miracles are given by God through the Saints. I hope that explains it so that it makes sense to you.

[JenaS62]

I am new here, but I have studies this subject for a very long time. I discovered that many Pagan practices were overtaken by Christianity, but the idea behind them was if they are done to honor Jesus then it is a good thing and in a way things were taken away from Satan when Satan lost his power. Satan lost power when Jesus died on the cross and the glory is now given to Jesus. .

Says who?

Also, as far as the Saints goes; the Catholic Church believes that people who die and have made it to heaven are still a part of the Body of Christ therefore they can pray for your or I just like I could pray for anyone here if they asked me. It's not believed they are God's in any way shape or form and they only have the power allowed to them by God the Father who works through them. Therefore any healings or miracles are given by God through the Saints. I hope that explains it so that it makes sense to you.

The Catholic Church believes or their followers believe? Sorry - I take issue with a religious organization like the Catholic Church that is able to change the rules and restrictions as they go along. Has God changed his mind?

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Mystery and thank-you for your post,

This is where I think the contorversary thrives. Who cares if pagan ideas and practices are involved. One christian has a christmas tree on Chistmas, others do not. I do not see why it matters. We live in a human world, and we all have different traditions that have come form years ago. It is our hearts that matter. In your heart do you worship that tree or think it is neccessary to you faith in Jesus, if yes, then there is a problem. I am just using the tree as a simple example. But a better one. Those who pray for Mary or saints to pray for them. If that person is praying to like they would God, then a problem, or if they pray to them to pray on their behalf, what is the big deal in that. I get asked to pray for people. My point is, why does all of these things matter? There are too many conflicts amongst the Christians of this world, when in fact they should be in unison with the fact they belief in God and Jesus. There is a quote in the bible that says something about, if one person thinks something is a sin, and one does not, the one who does not think it is a sin should not try to convince the other it is. I can not for the life of me find the exact verse, but if I do I will post it. Anyway, I take it to mean, traditions are not the important issue here, but faith in God and Jesus are. How I choose to show my faith and how another does is simply our human acts.

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

Hello seashell6867 and welcome,

I am new here, but I have studies this subject for a very long time. I discovered that many Pagan practices were overtaken by Christianity, but the idea behind them was if they are done to honor Jesus then it is a good thing and in a way things were taken away from Satan when Satan lost his power.

The term Pagan has the ability to confuse, a subject that is already quite misleading. Let us take a simple example as the week, at it's origin it is a Biblical institution, found at the opening of Genesis. If we examine the present day representation of the week, we could easily say that it is in fact a Pagan institution. Nothing could be further from the Truth, the reality is that it is only Pagan because the country dwellers have forgotten it's origin.

The incorporation of "pagan celebrations" into Christianity was a direct result of an understanding of their origins and of having the ability to show the people that partook in these festivals of exactly what their origin was.

The Feast of Unleaven Bread (aka the last supper, passover, communion) could be considered a Pagan celebration, not because it is without Biblical origin but because many of it's adherents are totally unaware of it's purpose.

Another good example is Mardi Gras, a sanctified celebration before Lent and yet more people observe Mardi Gras and miss out on the important part which is Lent.

It is important to look deep into the origins before accepting preliminary understandings of that which we see as Pagan. This ties in well with the idea of what is clean and what is unclean.

[Nu Kua]

The incorporation of "pagan celebrations" into Christianity was a direct result of an understanding of their origins and of having the ability to show the people that partook in these festivals of exactly what their origin was.

Incorrect. The Pagans didn't need anybody to tell them what anything was "really" for- this is brainwash talk.
In an effort to force everybody into one rule, which was that of the church, The Christian celebrators took over the Pagan traditional aspects and re-named them, and took away the (outward) identification for any aspect of the Creator except the one of single male creator and King, and insisted that they only recognize one component of God, that of Father.
It was no longer allowed to worship the female aspect of the Creator, and you could be killed for doing so. (or any other aspect, for that matter)
The idea being that the concept of One God was perpetuated by the church because the church was set up to be ruled likewise- by only One bishop who everybody else had to answer to- just like you were to obey One God, you were to obey One Bishop- and all decisions of the town, the governors, ect, had to be approved by the head of the church- just, as they forced people to believe- humans must answer to One God.
Just as the church annihilated all other expressions of faith in order to gain and maintain the utmost control over the land, so did they annihilated any version of faith that would suggest the people had control over their own lives.
And, it wasn't just the Pagans, either.

This is also why they had such a problem with the "gnostics"- the Gnostics told them that their beliefs were false- that the Creator God they worshiped was not the true God, but was sent by the True God to maintain life on Earth. Hence, the Gnostics felt that they, who had understanding of the real aspect and nature of the true God, did not feel they had to answer to the churches' God, which was only a demiurge- a mere creator deity who had emerged from the True God- and likewise, they did not have to answer to the Bishop, either, who was also not an authority figure in their eyes.
So it wasn't just the Pagans the church was after- it was even other forms of Christianity, even those who did believe in a single God who initiated life on Earth- but not in a way that gave the demiurge the same credit as the first "God".
This is a matter of recorded history I am speaking of, not some tautological mutterings of blind faith.


But back to the Pagans-
The "worshipers" you call the Pagans knew perfectly well their intent and what they were doing, and why; what is a Pagan is a person who may actually believe in one unifying power of the Universe, but sees it reflected in many different aspects. What is physical or labeled is just a divider- what is real flows underneath and cannot be seen.

In fact, the whole idea of eternal life and that the body is only a temporary container for the Spirit which lives forever is a very Pagan concept.

"Christianity" sprung from these concepts in the teachings of Jesus, although it was the church who later squashed the very things that Jesus was teaching.

Hence, Anti-Christ = the Church imho

PS
Satan was not an entity believed in nor created by the Pagans. Satan is a Jewish/Christian concept.

And Satan as initially described in the Torah, from which the much of the Bible was written, was not an enemy of God. He worked for God, so to speak- often being seen actually blocking people from engaging in an action or from a location that God had told them to stay away from. Later he develops to be a bit more of a troublemaker- but never was he described as a great arch enemy of God.

It wasn't until the later and especially with the writers of the New Testament that the entire idea of this great cosmic battle between good (us) and evil (them) was suggested to have actually descended upon Earth to take up the Grand Fight by using foolish humans as pawns in a holy/unholy chess game.

Do your research, people!

PS
Seashell, nice to meet you- and welcome to AO! :-)

Satan lost power when Jesus died on the cross and the glory is now given to Jesus.

Actually, according to traditional Christianity as I was raised in it, the crucifixion of Jesus was somewhat a winning battle for Satan- but it will not be until Jesus returns that the final battle will be fought, when, we are told, Satan will finally be bound by God and thrown into his own pits of hell for the rest of eternity= thus in the end, it is the power of God who wins.

[olddragon]

The present day words, Satan, Lucifer, Little horn, Devil are all excuses.
Excuses for not being responsible for your actions and deeds.
It is a blame game. I can not be held responsible for my acts, thoughts or wishes.
The Devil made me, is bull.
If you kill your children, you did it.
Don't blame Satan and think it's ok. You are at fault, you did the act.

[seashell6867]

PS
Seashell, nice to meet you- and welcome to AO! :-)



Actually, according to traditional Christianity as I was raised in it, the crucifixion of Jesus was somewhat a winning battle for Satan- but it will not be until Jesus returns that the final battle will be fought, when, we are told, Satan will finally be bound by God and thrown into his own pits of hell for the rest of eternity= thus in the end, it is the power of God who wins.

Hi and Thank You for the Welcome.

Yes, you are correct, but also Christianity believes that Jesus has already won the battle because he conquered death and made it possible for us to go to heaven and have everlasting life. He won it at the cross and Satan knows it because Jesus was the first to rise from the dead and the Old Testament Saints followed. Before this no one could get into heaven. It's in Matthew: 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 27:53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Nu Kua and thank-you for sharing such valued insight,

Incorrect. The pagans didn't need anybody to tell them what anything was "really" for- this is brainwash talk.

It would seem that I have not been clear enough and have mislead you with the intent of my words.

The word Pagan means country dweller, it would be equivalent to hick or hillbilly and is a reference to people that lack spiritual insight. A good example of this is adherents of the Catholic faith coming from isolated localities that rather than pray to the saints asking intercession, in fact believe that the saints will directly answer their prayers.

The problem is that spiritually insightful people have been lumped together under the term Pagan and they really do not belong in this position, it is a total abuse of the term.

In an effort to force everybody into one rule, which was that of the church, The Christian celebrations took over these aspects and re-named them, and took away the (outward) identification for any aspect of the Creator except the one of single male creator and King, and insisted that they only recognize one component of God, that of Father.

This is an excellent comment, there are two aspects that I would like to address the duality represented as male and female and the use of force by the Church.

The duality is one aspect that is quite often lost and surely needs to be brought back to peoples attention. If man was created in the image of God then it should be clear that man and woman are very important in reference to God. The male represents the outer representation of God, that which pertains to the strength and majesty of God while the female represents the inner or hidden representation of God. The veil thus becomes a representation of this hidden beauty and is only seen when the veil of the law is removed.

The early Church followed the example of Christ, relying upon proofs and evidences to clearly show the authority. One of the best examples of this is seen in Acts chapter 19 were Paul is seen in Euphesus.

Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

19:23 And the same time there arose no small stir about that way.

19:24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen; 19:25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.

19:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands: 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought;

The movement away from this type of examination to a doctrine of fear and blind acceptance was a much later introduction into the Church.

The idea being that the concept of One God was perpetuated by the church because the church was set up to be ruled likewise- by only One bishop who everybody else had to answer to- just like you were to obey One God, you were to obey One Bishop- and all decisions of the town, the governors, ect, had to be approved by the head of the church- just, as they forced people to believe- humans must answer to One God.
Just as the church annihilated all other expressions of faith in order to gain and maintain the utmost control over the land, so did they annihilated any version of faith that would suggest the people had control over their own lives.
And, it wasn't just the pagans, either.

The One God concept is one of the teachings of Christ, while everything else you have mentioned are doctrines introduced by men to have power over other men.

This is also why they had such a problem with the "gnostics"- the Gnostics told them that their beliefs were false- that the Creator God they worshiped was not the true God, but was sent by the True God to maintain life on Earth. Hence, the Gnostics felt that they, who had understanding of the real aspect and nature of the true God, did not feel they had to answer to the churches' God, which was only a demiurge- who came from the True God- and likewise, they did not have to answer to the Bishop, either.

This idea is presented by Christ in Revelation,

Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

This word Nicolaitanes comes from the word Nico to conquer and laitane as represented in the term layman. It is a reference to a doctrine that believes in the conquering of the layman or the putting under thumb of the parishioners.

So it wasn't just the pagans the church was after- it was even other forms of Christianity, even those who did believe in a single God who initiated life on Earth- but not in a way that gave the demiurge the same credit as the first "God".
This is a matter of recorded history I am speaking of, not some tautological mutterings of blind faith.

Excellent points.

But back to the pagans-
The "worshipers" you call the pagans knew perfectly well their intent and what they were doing, and why; what is a pagan is a person who may actually believe in one unifying power of the Universe, but sees it reflected in many different aspects. What is physical or labeled is just a divider- what is real flowed underneath and couldn't be seen.

Again as I have previously stated this is the Christian understanding of Pagan and in no way relates to the true meaning of the word.

In fact, the whole idea of eternal life and that the body is only a temporary container for the Spirit which lives forever is a very pagan concept.

Maybe it is better if we agree to find a better word to use in the place of Pagan.

PS
Satan was not an entity believed in nor created by the Pagans. Satan is a Jewish/Christian concept.

If we use the term Pagan to reference any group that does not believe the teachings of the church, a in depth study of diverse religious or spiritual groups will show us that in fact a satanic equivalent does exist.

And Satan as initially described in the Torah, from which the much of the Bible was written, was not an enemy of God. He worked for God, so to speak- often being seen actually blocking people from engaging in an action that God had told them to stay away from. Later he develops to be a bit more of a problem- but never was he described as a great arch enemy of God.

This is a very rational point.

It wasn't until the later and especially with the writers of the New Testament that the entire idea of this great cosmic battle between good (us) and evil (them) was suggested to have actually descended upon Earth to take up the Grand Fight by using foolish humans as pawns in a holy/unholy chess game.
Do your research, people!

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

A very interesting point you have made but I think the Truth is yet to be discovered.

Thank-you again for some great points.

[Skygirl]

The word Pagan means country dweller, it would be equivalent to hick or hillbilly and is a reference to people that lack spiritual insight. A good example of this is adherents of the Catholic faith coming from isolated localities that rather than pray to the saints asking intercession, in fact believe that the saints will directly answer their prayers.

The problem is that spiritually insightful people have been lumped together under the term Pagan and they really do not belong in this position, it is a total abuse of the term.

In the early Roman Empire paganus was the word for civilian. Christians later referred to themselves as miles christi (soldiers of christ), and referred to non-christians as pagani, non-soldiers, or civilians. It wasn't until the third century that it became an insulting term.

If we use the term Pagan to reference any group that does not believe the teachings of the church, a in depth study of diverse religious or spiritual groups will show us that in fact a satanic equivalent does exist.

In some religious or spiritual groups. No equivilent exists in mine.

[weederbro]

'Maybe it is better if we agree to find a better word to use in the place of Pagan'.(Q-gg)

Oh, really!

What you said here is lovely though:
'The duality is one aspect that is quite often lost and surely needs to be brought back to peoples attention. If man was created in the image of God then it should be clear that man and woman are very important in reference to God. The male represents the outer representation of God, that which pertains to the strength and majesty of God while the female represents the inner or hidden representation of God. The veil thus becomes a representation of this hidden beauty and is only seen when the veil of the law is removed.'

'Pagan' could be replaced with 'pluralist' maybe, indicating a belief in and faith in, multiple gods?

It accurately distinguishes what is different about Jahweh's unity(perhaps, 'singularity'?) As told in Scripture with the given titles, and the pantheons of gods and their given titles.

Refs: http://yahweh.com/booklets/Whois/Whois.htm

[weederbro]

Helllo Skygirl,
Your post contains references to the Roman. You will no doubt find this link interesting! : ) (The 'Yahweh' link is interesting also, the one that someone corrupted on another thread.)

http://www.nazarite.net/king-james.html

[Skygirl]

Thanks for the link! Thats some interesting stuff :)