The Mysterious Map of Piri Rei

[The Wicked Priest]

The Piri Re'is Map is an anomalous map drawn in the 15th Century which appear to represent better information about the shape of the continents than should have been known at the time. Furthermore, this information appears to have been obtained at some distant time in the past. It shows the coastline of Antarctica when it was "ice free". The last time it was ice free was 6,000 years ago.




Here is a big, super high-res picture of the map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rld_map_01.jpg

The Piri Re'is map is most interesting because of the attribution of the source of its information, and the extraordinary detail of the coastal outlines.

The Piri Re'is map was found in 1929 in the Imperial Palace in Constantinople. It is painted on parchment and dated 919 A.H. (in the Islamic calendar), which corresponds to 1513 AD. It is signed by an admiral of the Turkish Navy named Piri Ibn Haji Memmed, also known as Piri Re'is. According to Piri Re'is, the map had been assembled from a set of 20 maps drawn in the time of Alexander the Great.

If the information on this map was passed on since the time of Alexander, it must have come from the library of Alexandria. How had it been being passed on BEFORE then?



Here is a summary of some of the most unusual findings about the map:

* Scrutiny of the map shows that the makers knew the accurate circumference of the Earth to within 50 miles.

* The coastline and island that are shown in Antarctica must have been navigated at some period prior to 4,000 B.C. when these areas were free of ice from the last Ice Age.

* The map is thought to be one of the earliest "world maps" to show the Americas. Early scholars suggested that it showed accurate latitudes of the South American and African coastlines - only 21 years after the voyages of Columbus! (And remember, Columbus did NOT discover North America - only the Caribbean!) Writing in Piri Re'is own hand described how he had made the map from a collection of ancient maps, supplemented by charts that were drawn by Columbus himself. This suggests that these ancient maps were available to Columbus and could have been the basis of his expedition.

* As can be seen below, an azimuthal projection ( looking at the globe from a point above the globe), from the point above Cairo, Africa (Egypt) shows that the Piri Reis map corresponds more or less with the lower right quarter of this map if one rotates it some 20 degrees counter clockwise.





http://www.sacred-texts.com/piri/index.htm


Is it possible that a civilization mapped the Earth accurately 6,000 years ago?


.

[The Wicked Priest]

One school of thought about the Piri Re'is map is the 'Atlantis in Antarctica' thesis. The chief proponents of this are Rand and Rose Flem-Ath in their book When the Sky Fell, though there are others. The Flem-Aths buy into both Hapgoods' Sea Kings and Polar shift thesis. In the latter, Hapgood claimed that the inclination of the Earth's axis of rotation shifted suddenly in the year 9,500 B.C. causing Antarctica to move hundreds of miles to the south.

Albert Einstein agrees with this :

Charles Hapgood first came to public attention in the mid-1950s with his theory of earth crust displacement, a radical geological idea which attracted the curiosity and support of Albert Einstein. The Einstein-Hapgood correspondence is a forgotten page in the history of science. We obtained these letters (ten from Einstein to Hapgood) from Albert Einstein's Archives in the Fall of 1995. They show, for the first time, just how extensively Albert Einstein was involved in assisting Charles Hapgood in the development of the theory of earth crust displacement.

In his second reply (24 November 1952) to Hapgood, Einstein wrote that the idea of earth crust displacement should not be ruled out "apriori" just because it didn't fit with what we wanted to believe about the earth's past. What was needed, Einstein claimed, was solid "geological and paleontological facts."

For six months, Hapgood gathered geological evidence to support the idea of an earth crust displacement. On the 3rd of May 1953 he forwarded thirty-eight pages of this evidence to Einstein. Central to his argument was Hapgood's evidence that Lesser Antarctica was ice-free at the same time that North America lay smothered in ice. Einstein responded (8 May 1953):

"I find your arguments very impressive and have the impression that your hypothesis is correct. One can hardly doubt that significant shifts of the crust have taken place repeatedly and within a short time."

http://www.lauralee.com/rflemath/e-h.htm

[DaveyDoes]

Millions of years our planet has been here and I think things like this show us (current humanity) how vain we are to believe that we are the brightest and best that has ever been. It's exciting to even imagine that there were others capable of things that we've only recently become capable of doing with GPS, satellite imaging and computers. Hundreds of great civilizations could have risen and fallen only to be buried so deep or lost in such obscurity or cloaked in legend that we could never tell what was really going on with them. I love when "proof" pops up that throws a wrench of our understanding of this planet and it's real history.
Wonderfully supportive of Atlantis, Mu or trans-planetary migration theories.

[The Wicked Priest]

Millions of years our planet has been here and I think things like this show us (current humanity) how vain we are to believe that we are the brightest and best that has ever been. It's exciting to even imagine that there were others capable of things that we've only recently become capable of doing with GPS, satellite imaging and computers. Hundreds of great civilizations could have risen and fallen only to be buried so deep or lost in such obscurity or cloaked in legend that we could never tell what was really going on with them. I love when "proof" pops up that throws a wrench of our understanding of this planet and it's real history.
Wonderfully supportive of Atlantis, Mu or trans-planetary migration theories.

Exactly, great post!

I watched a special on Discovery called "After Humans" (I think), and it talked about what the Earth would look like if the human race just vanished. They hypothesized that in 1,000 years, no one would even know we even existed, because there would be virtually nothing left.

[Fyhre]

I watched a special on Discovery called "After Humans" (I think), and it talked about what the Earth would look like if the human race just vanished. They hypothesized that in 1,000 years, no one would even know we even existed, because there would be virtually nothing left.

I saw that. Animals took over once again and thrived. It was like we were a figment of our own imaginations. That show was spine-tingling.

[Mezurashi]

This map first came to my attention via the book 'Fingerprints Of The Gods' by Graham Hancock -- in this book Hancock makes all sorts of crazy-sounding suggestions about possible alternate versions of history which we've forgotten. The Piri map is part of his overall concept, which (in that book) was that the Earth's crust could shift in one piece as well as in pieces, which produce the fault lines which produce earthquakes when there's a pressure release. Hapgood was also referenced as well - interesting stuff.

surprisingly it also helped make apparent to me that the 'science' of Egyptology has become as much a religion than anything else - one Does Not Question the findings of the Egyptologists. because part of Hancock's ideas are that the Pyamids at Giza weren't built by Egyptian at all ... that sort of thing.

anyways, passions run high on both sides of the issue - I was once buried under net links as forms of Proof that Hancock was wrong. only problem was, all these net links led me to articles that had that air of sanctimony -- that odious air of pure knowledge and infallibility that only results from zealotry. in short, the 'Bible Thumpers' were throwing their good book at me to 'prove' that 'God' exists.

it's hard for some people to let go of their notions of 'what is.' and some of these people are skilled at using credible sounding dogma to support the 'accepted' version of things ... just as snake oil salesmen can deftly weave a web of convincing sounding lies to sell you on a false concept ... just as guys like Icke can go from football commentator (in the UK) to 'respected' theorist ...

much as I like the idea of the possible implications of the Piri map on our long view of history I also try to hold on to the notion that although I can think up weird things - the universe is weirder than I can ever imagine ... so I try to think as weird as I can ...

[Nu Kua]

No mystery to me, since I am a firm believer in the "ancient astronaut" theory of early human development on earth. (early to us, at least)
Obviously, there was a time in history that is ancient to us where people were air born.
Hence all of the stories of "gods and goddesses" who were flying hither and yon on chariots or wings or whatever.
I mean, what of the Nazca lines and drawings that can only make sense from way high in the sky?
How were so many sacred sites aligned exactly to the 30th parallel?


I love old maps.

[The Wicked Priest]

This map first came to my attention via the book 'Fingerprints Of The Gods' by Graham Hancock -- in this book Hancock makes all sorts of crazy-sounding suggestions about possible alternate versions of history which we've forgotten. The Piri map is part of his overall concept, which (in that book) was that the Earth's crust could shift in one piece as well as in pieces, which produce the fault lines which produce earthquakes when there's a pressure release. Hapgood was also referenced as well - interesting stuff.

surprisingly it also helped make apparent to me that the 'science' of Egyptology has become as much a religion than anything else - one Does Not Question the findings of the Egyptologists. because part of Hancock's ideas are that the Pyamids at Giza weren't built by Egyptian at all ... that sort of thing.

anyways, passions run high on both sides of the issue - I was once buried under net links as forms of Proof that Hancock was wrong. only problem was, all these net links led me to articles that had that air of sanctimony -- that odious air of pure knowledge and infallibility that only results from zealotry. in short, the 'Bible Thumpers' were throwing their good book at me to 'prove' that 'God' exists.

it's hard for some people to let go of their notions of 'what is.' and some of these people are skilled at using credible sounding dogma to support the 'accepted' version of things ... just as snake oil salesmen can deftly weave a web of convincing sounding lies to sell you on a false concept ... just as guys like Icke can go from football commentator (in the UK) to 'respected' theorist ...

much as I like the idea of the possible implications of the Piri map on our long view of history I also try to hold on to the notion that although I can think up weird things - the universe is weirder than I can ever imagine ... so I try to think as weird as I can ...

I'm with ya. I too first heard of this while reading "Fingerprints"... didn't have to get too far in the book because he opened with it. The most convincing argument in that book was the dating of the Sphinx, though. Robert Schock's water erosion theory is rock solid.

And you are right about Egyptology. Zahi Hawass, the head of antiquities in Egypt has his mug all over Discovery too, the "happy Egyptian" puppet of the Egyptian government. The Egyptian government wants us to believe that Egyptians built the pyramids, when they probably didn't. Even Zahi knows this. On Art Bell's show one night, psychic Sandra Brown mentioned when she was in Egypt, Zahi told her that he knows for a FACT the Giza complex is much, much older than he reports.

[The Wicked Priest]

No mystery to me, since I am a firm believer in the "ancient astronaut" theory of early human development on earth. (early to us, at least)
Obviously, there was a time in history that is ancient to us where people were air born.
Hence all of the stories of "gods and goddesses" who were flying hither and yon on chariots or wings or whatever.
I mean, what of the Nazca lines and drawings that can only make sense from way high in the sky?
How were so many sacred sites aligned exactly to the 30th parallel?


I love old maps.

Welcome back, Nu Kua!

I've read "Chariots of the Gods" and "The 12th Planet", so I've looked into the ancient astronaut theory. I don't know... I'm more of an Atlantis kinda guy.

Who knows, maybe there is truth in both, but either way. who can argue with this guy:

[JenaS62]

Welcome back, Nu Kua!

I've read "Chariots of the Gods" and "The 12th Planet", so I've looked into the ancient astronaut theory. I don't know... I'm more of an Atlantis kinda guy.

Who knows, maybe there is truth in both, but either way. who can argue with this guy:

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/p...ut-nc-200h.jpg

I am firmly in the ancient astronaut corner. Great find WP - absolutely fascinating!

[Harry61]

Exactly, great post!

I watched a special on Discovery called "After Humans" (I think), and it talked about what the Earth would look like if the human race just vanished. They hypothesized that in 1,000 years, no one would even know we even existed, because there would be virtually nothing left.

I saw that show too, it was interesting. And what a great post you have going here.

I beleive in out side or shall I say out of this world help in developing our skills. And Daveys point on how vain we all are, so true and so sad to think about sometimes.

Today as I was shopping, I started to notice the little things I take advantage of, like the cost of bread. Well, I decided to start making my own bread instead of paying for the costs of delievery, and advertising etc. As I was telling my neighbor about this, she said. I bet half the world doesn't remember how to make bread from scratch. Or many things that have fell by the "way side".

If we just look around our home, what would we be able to survive on? If you take the average person living in la la land as we know it now, they probably wouldn't be able to do some of the "little" things. The map probably took a decade to make but well worth it.

There are many lost arts and I believe that humans have lost most of the common sense values we once had.

I like this one WP, you make AO shine sometimes!

[The Wicked Priest]

Thanks Harry.... what a great compliment!

I get reminded of how tough it would be to survive whenever my power goes out during a storm. I would have a really hard time living off the land, that's for sure. If the worst happens, I'll just have to follow the smell of fresh baked bread and look for the chick in the Larry Johnson jersey!

[phedrereine]

Wow.

This is fairly blowing my mind. It's hard to believe anyone could have sailed to Antarctica in 4000 B.C., isn't it?

Not even the Vikings could have dreamed of reaching that far! I know they settled Greenland and Leif Eriksson led the first old world expedition to present day New England and Canada... in 1000 A.D.

But 4000 B.C. . . We're not even talking about Sumeria. This was before then. We're talking Early Bronze Age. This was before the birth of writing, so we think. Cuneiform script existed, maybe, barely... The Sumerians traded expansively in the Persian Gulf; we've found artifacts of obsidian to suggest that. They had sail boats and river boats. There's no way in hell that they could have sailed halfway across the Atlantic, let alone to Antarctica.

*sits and broods*

It's true that if there was a place where these maps could have been procured and safely stored, it was the Library of Alexandria. They had so much we'll never know. It was an international powerhouse of knowledge. The philosophers and scholars there studied everything from astronomy to critical analysis to Homer. They had thousands upon thousands of scrolls shelved away, and always went scouting for more at fairs and from ships. But how could 20 maps have survived together through four different conquerings/burnings? And how did they fall into someone's lap in 1513?

And what's this about Antarctica being iceless in the Ice Age? Hahaha! Oh, I'm lost. If that's the case, then could it be that it iced over again later than we think, and so it wasn't mapped out until much later than 4000 B.C.? But much later is still much too early!!!

This is a mystery. I don't understand it at all! It could be because it's 3:00 A.M. Do you think? No. It's a mystery. Discover the truth, I will. Yes. After I sleep.

[The Wicked Priest]

It's not that hard to believe... the human timeline just has to be re written a little. And it should be.

Take the Sumerians... it's hard for me to believe is that a people just under one thousand years removed from cavemen, could know complicated astronomy, mathematics, metal working, glass blowing.... ect

It's really not hard to believe, if you believe the human race had a helping hand.

[phedrereine]

We know Cro-Magnons had more complex brains than Neanderthals, and they started to appear about 43,000 B.C. Maybe they were even more advanced than we think, and maybe Mesopotamian civilization and innovation shaped itself even sooner than we think, too.

But it's still incredibly difficult for me to believe a civilization from the Tigris/Euphrates river valley could have accomplished this feat. And that was the birth of civilization. Do you think an unknown civilization from elsewhere could have managed it? And from what area? And why are there no other records of it? Hmm.

Now.. Native Americans crossed over here from Eurasia about 10,000 B.C. It's possible that those who migrated to South America could have been within reach to investigate Antarctica. But there is absolutely no way this information could have made it back to Macedonia or wherever in the time of Alexander. Maybe Piri Re'is was mistaken about that fact. Afterall, he drew this map in 1513 and had no way to know for sure where and when the information originated. It's not like they had carbon dating then. We don't have a single one of these maps today, which means any guess as to their origin is suspect.

I just think some factual information about these maps was misplaced along the way.

In any case, do you think the sketching of the landmass beneath the ice was more of an estimate of what could not be seen, and so was coincidental? Then it could be any time.

It's just really difficult for me imagine anyone from the Eastern Hempisphere in 4000 B.C. having the capability and foresight to make this very long voyage. Imagine the extraordinary navigational knowledge they would have had to have. And also, the provisions. How would they know anything about storing provisions on such a long voyage? And how would they deal with the currents around Antarctica, nothing that they were used to from home? And such an unprecedented voyage would have been taxing for those on board. (Magellan had to deal with a few mutinies and the fear and cabin fever of his crew all before reaching South America. It's a miracle they made it to the Philippines. That was in the 16th century, with the best ships of the time and the backing of the Spanish Crown.) And not only would they have had to make it there, but back again, with the maps intact. I would like to believe that we were capable of more in the past than we give ourselves credit for, but there just isn't any evidence to support the ability of such an undertaking.

A helping hand? That's an interesting idea, although it creeps me out. lol. What do you mean, in particular?

[The Wicked Priest]

We know Cro-Magnons had more complex brains than Neanderthals, and they started to appear about 43,000 B.C. Maybe they were even more advanced than we think, and maybe Mesopotamian civilization and innovation shaped itself even sooner than we think, too.

I think they did develop sooner.

But it's still incredibly difficult for me to believe a civilization from the Tigris/Euphrates river valley could have accomplished this feat. And that was the birth of civilization. Do you think an unknown civilization from elsewhere could have managed it? And from what area? And why are there no other records of it? Hmm.

This was no ordinary civilization. They appeared as a fully developed civilization almost overnight. Their knowledge of science was amazing... too amazing. In fact, their system of mathematics is BETTER than ours. It's based on 60 and it's much easier to use(maybe Cart or someone can explain this better, because I suck at math).

A lot of people on this board believe that aliens passed on knowledge to early humans, but I believe there is truth in the Atlantis myth. Not so much the sunken continent part, but the advanced civilization with the high science part. Maybe it was in Antarctica....maybe the Bimini Coast.

Now.. Native Americans crossed over here from Eurasia about 10,000 B.C. It's possible that those who migrated to South America could have been within reach to investigate Antarctica. But there is absolutely no way this information could have made it back to Macedonia or wherever in the time of Alexander. Maybe Piri Re'is was mistaken about that fact. Afterall, he drew this map in 1513 and had no way to know for sure where and when the information originated. It's not like they had carbon dating then. We don't have a single one of these maps today, which means any guess as to their origin is suspect.

Why are you so sure of the fact that info couldn't reach Alexandria? Did you know how the Library of Alexandria acquired all of it's books? By decree of Ptolemy III of Egypt, all visitors to the city were required to surrender all books and scrolls in their possession. These writings were then swiftly copied by official scribes. The originals were put into the Library, and the copies were delivered to the previous owners. Most travelers had maps.... it makes perfect sense. Maps are an amazing thing really... even if you can't read, you can understand a map. And anyone who traveled, rich or poor, carried a map.

I just think some factual information about these maps was misplaced along the way.

In any case, do you think the sketching of the landmass beneath the ice was more of an estimate of what could not be seen, and so was coincidental? Then it could be any time.

You cannot estimate where a river bed is under an ice sheet that is a 1/2 a mile thick. http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/16465_.html

It's just really difficult for me imagine anyone from the Eastern Hempisphere in 4000 B.C. having the capability and foresight to make this very long voyage. Imagine the extraordinary navigational knowledge they would have had to have. And also, the provisions. How would they know anything about storing provisions on such a long voyage? And how would they deal with the currents around Antarctica, nothing that they were used to from home? And such an unprecedented voyage would have been taxing for those on board. (Magellan had to deal with a few mutinies and the fear and cabin fever of his crew all before reaching South America. It's a miracle they made it to the Philippines. That was in the 16th century, with the best ships of the time and the backing of the Spanish Crown.) And not only would they have had to make it there, but back again, with the maps intact. I would like to believe that we were capable of more in the past than we give ourselves credit for, but there just isn't any evidence to support the ability of such an undertaking.

Don't underestimate the knowledge of ancient people. The great pyramid of Giza cannot be duplicated by 21st century technology. And our 21st century arrogance tells us the Egyptians built the Pyramids without the brains to invent the wheel first. Right...

A helping hand? That's an interesting idea, although it creeps me out. lol. What do you mean, in particular?

Passed on technology from an ancient civilization, sometime before or during the ice age.

[phedrereine]

Why are you so sure of the fact that info couldn't reach Alexandria? Did you know how the Library of Alexandria acquired all of it's books? By decree of Ptolemy III of Egypt, all visitors to the city were required to surrender all books and scrolls in their possession. These writings were then swiftly copied by official scribes. The originals were put into the Library, and the copies were delivered to the previous owners. Most travelers had maps.... it makes perfect sense. Maps are an amazing thing really... even if you can't read, you can understand a map. And anyone who traveled, rich or poor, carried a map.

Alexandria's reach was undeniably vast. As far as Asia, Europe and Africa are concerned, I do not doubt that Alexandria obtained scrolls that had traversed throughout them all. But South America? I can't believe it. I can't see how anyone was sailing to South America at this time and there is no evidence or information to suggest that this was possible, whether you're talking about China, Mesopotamia or Europe... I don't buy that ship building was advanced enough to complete such a journey and a return to boot.

Don't underestimate the knowledge of ancient people. The great pyramid of Giza cannot be duplicated by 21st century technology. And our 21st century arrogance tells us the Egyptians built the Pyramids without the brains to invent the wheel first. Right...

That would be a flaw in our thinking. lol.

In any case, I do feel that they were much more knowledgeable than we think, but not that much. How could an expedition have sailed to Antarctica and returned without any sort of impact at all on the future? There are no records of any other attempts, are there? And such an undertaking would have had to have been supported by someone powerful. It would have been very risky. If they had the capability to sail that far, then they had very impressive and advanced naval knowledge indeed. They should have been able to gain themselves an empire, or at least raid as the Vikings did, or have some sort of great influence. They certainly would have been able to produce objects to leave behind for us to find. We have no inklings of anything like that, and if one civilization had been able to do something like that, why did it take the others thousands of years to catch up?

I believe in the Atlantis myth, too, but I believe that that was the Minoan Civilization... 1600 B.C., give or take. Thera is a worthy instigator of the myth. But who knows? Another mystery.

In the end, there are no certainties for or against it, because we simply have no proof of anything. And it's true that so little is known of ancient history. We can only guess. Something major could have happened to wipe out this information and cut off knowledge of its existence from the rest of the world. I don't know.

[Beatnik Bob]

It's really a shame though that The Great Library was destroyed, and no copies were made. Supposedly, there was a three volume history of the earth there writen down by a Babylonian priest who recieved visions from "the gods". Whether his stuff were true or not, i see its loss as a travesty.

But great thread by the way! I only want to add that I recently read the Hindu Epic poems the Ramayana and Mahabaratah, passed down for thousands of years before being writen down.
The Mahabaratah desribes a great "god" war, where in one scene a great explosion happens, and it is described JUST LIKE a nuclear bomb blast. It desribes a flash that "vaporized the birds and beasts" and was blinding to look at. And after the explosion there was such contamination in the food and everything that people died uncounted, and threw themselves into the water...

And both books describe flying ships of the "gods" shaped like silver discs. Rama (the hero of the Ramayana) captures one after defeating Ravana, and flys all round the world. (an interesting concept considering people of that time werent supposed to know the world wasnt flat).
Another note on hindu culture:
They seem to have a deep and ancient understanding of the universe in their old literature that shouldnt have been known:

Literature talks of space and galaxies, when cultures thought the earth was enveloped by a huge dark blanket, and the stars were little holes.

They talk of the gods conquering many worlds, and once a tyrant human king went forth and started enslaving people of other planets. This is interesting because humans "didnt know" that there were other landmasses like earth at that time. And they shouldnt have suspected the planets to be little more than small balls in the sky, who were there for looks.

What's even more fascinating is that Tibetans have thousands of untranslated scrolls in their keeping. Imagine what might be learned of our past if the ancient languages are desciphered?

But anyway, i get off on subjects like this....i should stop.

[Nu Kua]

Mahabaratah, passed down for thousands of years before being writen down.
The Mahabaratah desribes a great "god" war, where in one scene a great explosion happens, and it is described JUST LIKE a nuclear bomb blast. It desribes a flash that "vaporized the birds and beasts" and was blinding to look at. And after the explosion there was such contamination in the food and everything that people died uncounted, and threw themselves into the water...

And both books describe flying ships of the "gods" shaped like silver discs. Rama (the hero of the Ramayana) captures one after defeating Ravana, and flys all round the world. (an interesting concept considering people of that time werent supposed to know the world wasnt flat).
Another note on hindu culture:
They seem to have a deep and ancient understanding of the universe in their old literature that shouldnt have been known:

Literature talks of space and galaxies, when cultures thought the earth was enveloped by a huge dark blanket, and the stars were little holes.

They talk of the gods conquering many worlds, and once a tyrant human king went forth and started enslaving people of other planets. This is interesting because humans "didnt know" that there were other landmasses like earth at that time. And they shouldnt have suspected the planets to be little more than small balls in the sky, who were there for looks.

These are among the several reasons I feel most comfortable with the ancient astronaut thing. Many, many old tales speak of the 'gods" flying, allude to other planetary bodies, and to skip about a little, the word "heaven" from the Sumerian script originally meant "sky" or "up there", not a place like a "paradise".

But the other stuff is cool, too. I wonder sometimes if the story of Atlantis isn't another retelling of the flood event.

[Beatnik Bob]

But the other stuff is cool, too. I wonder sometimes if the story of Atlantis isn't another retelling of the flood event.

I think both Atlantis and ancient astronauts are true. They can coexist. Atlantis just means we lost everything long ago in an armageddon of some sort.

[The Wicked Priest]

But South America? I can't believe it. I can't see how anyone was sailing to South America at this time and there is no evidence or information to suggest that this was possible, whether you're talking about China, Mesopotamia or Europe... I don't buy that ship building was advanced enough to complete such a journey and a return to boot.


In any case, I do feel that they were much more knowledgeable than we think, but not that much. How could an expedition have sailed to Antarctica and returned without any sort of impact at all on the future? There are no records of any other attempts, are there? And such an undertaking would have had to have been supported by someone powerful. It would have been very risky. If they had the capability to sail that far, then they had very impressive and advanced naval knowledge indeed. They should have been able to gain themselves an empire, or at least raid as the Vikings did, or have some sort of great influence. They certainly would have been able to produce objects to leave behind for us to find. We have no inklings of anything like that, and if one civilization had been able to do something like that, why did it take the others thousands of years to catch up?

As far as shipbuilding goes, I do think it's possible, and I think they did it. The proof is in the Piri Rei flavored pudding.

I believe in the Atlantis myth, too, but I believe that that was the Minoan Civilization... 1600 B.C., give or take. Thera is a worthy instigator of the myth. But who knows? Another mystery.

I disagree... Thera was no Atlantis, but as you say, who knows.

In the end, there are no certainties for or against it, because we simply have no proof of anything. And it's true that so little is known of ancient history. We can only guess. Something major could have happened to wipe out this information and cut off knowledge of its existence from the rest of the world. I don't know.

I think the major event was the ice age. The Sphinx in Egypt has been dated by some reputable geologists to 10,000 BC. That for me is proof of an advanced ancient civilization, but I agree more evidence is needed to re write history.

[Beatnik Bob]

Actually, I just wanna know how the coast lines seem recognizable if Antarctica ISNT covered in ice.
Right? Cuz all the melted ice would go somewhere...

[TC]

The theories written depicting a shift by the earths crust by both Hapgood ( Theory of Earth Crust Displacement) and Velikovsky ( Earth in Upheaval) would explain an ice free continent suddenly thrown into a polar geographical location, but both are highly debated.

The Minoan having a very advanced culture for their time ( ceramic water pipes and flush toilets some 3500 years ago) and their sudden demise with the catastrophic eruption of Thira ( todays Santorini) would be more than enough to propagate a story of a submerged culture, seeing as the tidal surge was over 800ft high when it reached Crete.

Neolithic evidence of human existence some 8,000 years old on the northern Orkney island group would suggest a possible land bridge between England and Europe. And the same geological formation of chalk cliffs exposed on both sides of the channel confirm an obvious subsidence of a huge amount of land mass.


When the Aswan Dam was being built across the Nile, test drilling to find bed rock had revealed its the original depth and floodplain, some 240 ft lower than its present elevation. This obviously begs the question as to the depth of the Mediterranean ( or even its existence) during past millenia, and the corresponding exposed land and island groups.

All of these possibilities question our current theories as to this planets geologic past and its effect on human history, we are surrounded by evidence of enormous upheavals and the obvious consequence on human culture. Where the snag arises, is our opinion of dates, some suggest hundreds of thousands of years prior to mans first appearance, while others claim the possibility of only tens of thousands.

[lazserus]

The last time [Antarctica] was ice free was 6,000 years ago.

Hmm, I don't think so. Antarctica has always been near the southern pole. It broke away from Gondwana maybe 160 million years ago, heading south. The Cretaceous Period was "ice-free" but we're talking no less than 60 million years ago. If I am not mistaken, ice began covering the planet [again] some 20 million years ago. By 20 million years ago, the continents were more or less close to where they are now, with the exceptions of India and Australia. (Yes, I know India is not a continent, but before it was considered one before it slammed into southern Asia.) I know I'm nitpicking and it looks as if I'm picking a fight, but I'm not. I'm just correcting you. After the break up starting in the Triassic, Antarctica stayed at the pole and was one of the first land masses to freeze after the K/T boundary. Even with modern technology, we can only guess the rock contents buried below dozens of miles of ice on the polar continent. What I'm saying is, Antarctica was not free of ice 6,000 years ago. Not 10,000 years ago. Not 20,000 years ago. And not 10 million years ago. I'm all for ice-free Earth, but becareful how you spin this shite.

The theories written depicting a shift by the earths crust by both Hapgood ( Theory of Earth Crust Displacement) and Velikovsky ( Earth in Upheaval) would explain an ice free continent suddenly thrown into a polar geographical location, but both are highly debated.

Debated because the hypotheses explaining the phenomena (especially Hapgood's) is nothing short of absurd. It's simple physics, which is related in the way of isostatic rebound. As ice disappears the weight allows the earth to heave up. Hapgood's concept of an immediate displacement of the planet's crust is a joke. You can't sling the surface of the earth over 3,000 kilometers in the blink of an eye. At least not without outsourcing. You'd need an impact from an object nearing the size of the moon to do that and life wouldn't be here if that happened in Hapgood's timeframe. The records I presume you're referring to have been long explained without the radical theories of Hapgood et al.

Neolithic evidence of human existence some 8,000 years old on the northern Orkney island group would suggest a possible land bridge between England and Europe. And the same geological formation of chalk cliffs exposed on both sides of the channel confirm an obvious subsidence of a huge amount of land mass.

I can dig it. If I remember correctly, Orkney is like a bowl of Corn Flakes. There are scattered flakes of islands and some are populated and some aren't. The Scottish Highlands aren't known for volcanics, so I assume Orkney isn't volcanic in nature. I haven't the foggiest idea the sediment in the Orkney Islands, but if we assume it's sand or lime, there's no reason to think it wasn't once all one chunk of land. Actually, if the primary sediment is limestone or shale, it would make perfect sense for it being broken up. But I'm just throwing bullshit out here.

[The Wicked Priest]

Hmm, I don't think so. Antarctica has always been near the southern pole. It broke away from Gondwana maybe 160 million years ago, heading south. The Cretaceous Period was "ice-free" but we're talking no less than 60 million years ago. If I am not mistaken, ice began covering the planet [again] some 20 million years ago. By 20 million years ago, the continents were more or less close to where they are now, with the exceptions of India and Australia. (Yes, I know India is not a continent, but before it was considered one before it slammed into southern Asia.) I know I'm nitpicking and it looks as if I'm picking a fight, but I'm not. I'm just correcting you. After the break up starting in the Triassic, Antarctica stayed at the pole and was one of the first land masses to freeze after the K/T boundary. Even with modern technology, we can only guess the rock contents buried below dozens of miles of ice on the polar continent. What I'm saying is, Antarctica was not free of ice 6,000 years ago. Not 10,000 years ago. Not 20,000 years ago. And not 10 million years ago. I'm all for ice-free Earth, but becareful how you spin this shite.

No spin, my friend... and I'll always welcome opposing viewpoints. I think the only point you can correct me on is "ice free". Let me clarify... Antarctica hasn't been 100% ice free in millions of years. This is very true. But it's proven that the Antarctic climate has been through warm spells where most of the coastline was ice free. Hapgood's crust displacement theory may have holes, but ice cores don't lie.

The Historical Atlas of Canada states: “Between 5000 and 2000 BC climatic warming reached a maximum: lichen woodland and boreal forest extended north of their modern limit; grassland, parkland, and deciduous woodland were more extensive than now.”‡

† The Ice Chronicles, Paul Andrew Mayewski & Frank White, p. 121.

‡ Historical Atlas of Canada, Vol. I, Harris, 1987, plate 4.

Thus, Greenland could have been circumnavigated during two different periods within the past 6,000 years. Given what is known of early civilizations, the most likely period when someone might have sailed around Greenland would have been during the second warm period from 900 BC to 600 AD. Presumably, during this period both the North Sea and the waters surrounding Antarctica were warmer.

http://www.nymapsociety.org/FEATURES/TRAGER.HTM

More evidence of a modern, warm Antarctica
http://www.co2science.org/subject/m/...antarctica.php
http://www.physorg.com/news95953592.html