Why do Christians Insist Hitler was an Atheist?

***Cyranothe2nd*** · Apr 14th, 2009 4:16 PM

(Alas this is not mine. Originally written by SunoftheSkye)

Why Do Christians Insist That Hitler Was an Atheist?

I have had several Christian commenters in the past and present, insist that Adolf Hitler was an atheist. Most, if not all, never even bother to submit any proof to their illegitimate claim. Do they base this claim due to the horrible atrocities? Just because we like or dislike a person’s actions, do we alter the label of that person’s religious beliefs? Why do we feel the need to excuse/distance our religious affiliation from madmen like Hitler? Is it out of shame or just plain denial? There are certain facts about Adolf Hitler that simply cannot be overlooked.

Facts
1. Adolf Hitler was raised and baptized as a Roman Catholic in the midst of a Catholic family. He also served as an alter boy in the Catholic church.

2. Hitler wrote in his book, Mein Kampf: “. . . I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord’s work.” He made essentially the same claim in a speech before the Reichstag in 1938.

3. In 1941 Hitler told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals: “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” In fact, Hitler was never excommunicated from the Catholic Church, and Mein Kampf was not placed on the Church’s Index of Forbidden Books. Yes, the Catholic church supported the Nazi movement and the killing of millions of Jews. There probably were an undisclosed/unknown amount of atheists killed also.

4. Regarding atheism, Hitler specifically opposed it in a 1933 speech in Berlin: “We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”
prussian
5. By order of the Führer (Hitler), Nazi Germany’s soldiers (Wehrmacht) wore belt buckles inscribed “Gott mit uns” (”God is with us”). An atheist would never demand this.
With just these five facts out of many others, why would they still insist that Adolf Hitler was an atheist? Only total ignorance would support such misguided statements connecting him to atheism.

...Beyond any of their historical ignorance (surprise, surprise), I'm not sure how Hitler being an atheist is in any way a valid argument against atheism ANYWAY. If say, a Christian were to attack a group of gay people. I could blame it on their religious text and connect their Christianity to their crimes. If an atheist were to kill someone, I'm not sure how it would make any sense to link their lack of belief in God to their crime. It's not like you can type in "How to be an atheist" into Google and find a list of commandments or something. If an atheist kills someone, it's their own fault. Not atheism. This isn't to say that anything a Christian does is automatically linked to THEIR religious beliefs either, but depending on what it is, you could at least make a case. Not seeing the logic with atheism (or agnosticism).

***GamerGal*** · Apr 14th, 2009 4:27 PM

Yeah yeah yeah, just because the Church supported Hitler and the NAZIs and now have a NAZI Pope and are the largest group of pedos in the world and have committed biological warfare in Africa for decades committing genocide on the innocent and burned people at the cross for believeing the earth was round and not the center of the universe and just because they slaughtered millions in America for being heathens and just because they want every gay on the planet exterminated and just because...

Hmm, where was I going with this?

**lycanox** · Apr 14th, 2009 4:37 PM

The parts of National socialism concerning races was at its peak considered an important part of theory of evolution. And teached in universities everywhere in the world.
While later on the science of National socialism "racial science" was ruled wrong and more the result of biased scientists. Radical christians still use the National socialist period in their hate propaganda against atheism.

Hitler however was not a Christian but more an Pagan. He had his own religion that was an combination between Nordic mythology, national socialism, Theosophy, occultism, spiritualism and little bits of Christianity.
If I were to copy the state religion of Nazi Germany and cut out the obvious bits. Nobody would recognize it as Christianity.
If he was doing anything that is recognizable as being Christian. It was most likely an act to lure in the Christian population.

Neither did the church have anything to do with the holocaust.
Just supporting the Nazis for a while does not count, as that would make the entire western world guilty of the Nazi crimes.
And the church clearly expressed its opposition when Germany started gassing handicapped and even managed to shut down parts of that specific program.

In fact, the catholic distaste for Nazism even reached such high level that Nazis were at one point even banned from being buried on holy ground.
I still have an old Polygon news clip somewhere where the nazies invaded an church so they could bury an NSB officer. While warning the rest of the churches to cease their protests.

***Nasik*** · Apr 14th, 2009 5:46 PM

The Catholic Church sent mixed messages. Officially, there appeared to be tacit acceptance (neutrality), but unofficially, behind the scenes the Church was active in attempting to save Jews.

I found this from a website (each item is footnoted in the original article):

Positive items:

The phrase "righteous among nations" is a term which refers to non-Jews who helped saved Jews from the Nazis. It could be argued that Pius XII would certainly qualify for this honor, because he saved hundreds of thousands of Jews from death. One account estimates 750,000 lives saved. 2 Pinchas E. Lapide estimated 860,000. 3

Pius XII did publicly condemn racist oppression -- in his wartime Christmas messages and at other times. However, the language that he used was so vague that it did not clearly refer to Nazi atrocities.

Some Jewish groups, asked the Pope to remain neutral during the war so that he would be more helpful diplomatically.

The church did directly condemn the Nazi policy of murdering mentally and physically disabled Germans in the 1930's. The Nazi's discontinued the program for a while.

The Vatican hid 477 Jews during the war. Another 4,238 were hidden in church monasteries and convents. 4

The pope spoke to a few select officials in private, encouraging them to help Jewish victims. 4

In 1942, Pope Pius XII was preparing a statement condemning Nazi persecution of Jews. But he decided to not make it public because of events in the Netherlands. As noted above, Dutch bishops had protested against the exportation of Dutch Jews, with disastrous consequences.

"In appreciation of what Pius did for the Jews; the World Jewish Congress made a large cash gift to the Vatican in 1945; in the same year, Rabbi Herzog of Jerusalem sent a 'special blessing' to the Pope 'for his lifesaving efforts on behalf of the Jews during the Nazi occupation of Italy'; and when Pius died in 1958, Israel's Foreign Minister Golda Meir gave a him moving eulogy at the United Nations for the same reason." 5

Negative items:

Although informed of the massive Nazi attacks of synagogues and Jewish business in on Kristallnacht 1938-NOV, Pope Pius XII issued no public criticism.

Although informed during 1940 to 1943 of Nazi atrocities in at least Austria, Lithuania, Poland, Spain, and the Ukraine, (including deportations to death camps) he made no public comments. 4

Pope Pius XII "...never explicitly spoke out against Hitler." Actually, this is in error. He did condemn Hitler in a speech to the College of Cardinals, one month after the war ended. 2

"He refused to join a resolution of the Allies condemning the Nazi crimes." 2

"He never excommunicated any Nazi," 7although he did excommunicate some German Catholics who supported cremation as an alternative to burial.

"He never declared it a sin for Catholics to participate in the slaughter." 2

In 1941 when asked about proposed anti-Jewish laws in Vichy France, Pius XII answered that the church condemned racism, but did not repudiate every rule against the Jews. 4

original article here

***Assassin X*** · Apr 14th, 2009 6:01 PM

Well lest get some things straight.

1. Assuming he was what you say. You don't see religious people doing what Hitler did. But I am sure people will post how bad religious people are anyways.

2. Hes catholic not christian. I don't give a fuck what people say that they are the same thing, they are not. Maybe at one time or they split..etc. But now...they are not. Catholics have their own buildings and their own beliefs, christians have their own buildings and their own beliefs...hell even christians have separate denominations... point being catholics and christians are two seperate groups. Both catholics and christians know this. You don't se catholics going to christian churches and vica versa....why? Because its two diffrent faiths. And I'd get into that but I'd rather not.

3. Ever notice when something bad happens people are quick to dig up ANY presence of a religion. Even if the person was at one time religious its gotta be brought up. Just so it can blamed on that. Then people say the world does NOT have anything against religion...lol. Yep no hate towards it...they just like making sure they bring up "OMG that gu was religious too! DAmn religious people!"

4. Um...uh... well I'll skip the rest of my shit because I can see where this is going.

***calliope*** · Apr 14th, 2009 7:03 PM

It's actually the christian religion that so inspired Nazi ideology. The founder of the christian Protestant religion, Martin Luther, laid the groundwork for the Nazi instigation of the Jewish holocaust, with his religious calls for the extermination of the Jews.

Hitler refers to Luther in Mein Kampf as "a great warrior, a true statesmen, and a great reformer, alongside Wagner and Frederick the Great."

From Wikipedia:

In the course of the Luthertag (Luther Day) festivities, the Nazis emphasized their connection to Luther as being both nationalist revolutionaries and the heirs of the German traditionalist past. An article in the Chemnitzer Tageblatt stated that "[t]he German Volk are united not only in loyalty and love for the Fatherland, but also once more in the old German beliefs of Luther [Lutherglauben]; a new epoch of strong, conscious religious life has dawned in Germany."

In 1543 Martin Luther wrote the book, On the Jews and Their Lies, a rabid anti-semitic treatise (a book still read and revered by hate groups such as the KKK today):

In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[13] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine."[14] The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[15] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[16] afforded no legal protection,[17] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[18] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_the_Jews

The following excerpts are from a paper explicating the link between Lutheranism and Nazi doctrine:

Martin Luther's dirty little book:
On the Jews and their lies
A precursor to Nazism
by Jim Walker

Introduction

A little about Dr. Martin Luther (1483-1546)

Luther, a German theologian and religious reformer, initiated the Protestant Reformation and forever split Christianity from Catholicism. His influence extends beyond religion to politics, economics, education and language. In 1505, after receiving a bachelor's and master's degree, he suddenly abandoned his studies, entered the Augustinian monastery in Erfurt and became a monk. He became a controversial figure when he published his Ninety-Five Theses, opposing the indulgences (release from the penalties for sin through the payment of money by the Catholic Church). This resulted in his split from the Roman Catholic Church where he established unique Christian interpretations about the Bible and theology. His influence resulted in the major Protestant denomination of Lutheranism where their churches today use Luther's name.

Protestant Christians so admire Martin Luther that he stands as a respected "Patron Saint" to their beliefs and morals. Christians often quote him, theologians write books on him, and many name their children after him (Martin Luther King Jr., for example).

Luther's anti-Jewishness

Unfortunately few popular books on Luther go into detail about Luther's anti-Jewishness, or even mention that he had a hatred for Jews at all. This has resulted in a biased outlook towards Martin Luther and Christianity....

Although Luther did not invent anti-Jewishness, he promoted it to a level never before seen in Europe. Luther bore the influence of his upbringing and from anti-Jewish theologians such as Lyra, Burgensis, (and John Chrysostom, before them). But Luther's 1543 book, "On the Jews and their lies" took Jewish hatred to a new level when he proposed to set fire to their synagogues and schools, to take away their homes, forbad them to pray or teach, or even to utter God's name. Luther wanted to "be rid of them" and requested that the government and ministers deal with the problem. He requested pastors and preachers to follow his example of issuing warnings against the Jews. He goes so far as to claim that "We are at fault in not slaying them" for avenging the death of Jesus Christ. Hitler's Nazi government in the 1930s and 40s fit Luther's desires to a tee.

So vehemently did Luther speak against the Jews, and the fact that Luther represented an honorable and admired Christian to Protestants, that his written words carried the "memetic" seeds of anti-Jewishness up until the 20th century and into the Third Reich. Luther's Jewish eliminationist rhetoric virtually matches the beliefs held by Hitler and much of the German populace in the 1930s.

Luther unconsciously set the stage for the future of German nationalistic fanaticism. William L. Shirer in his "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," puts it succinctly:

"Through his sermons and his magnificent translations of the Bible, Luther created the modern German language, aroused in the people not only a new Protestant vision of Christianity by a fervent German nationalism and taught them, at least in religion, the supremacy of the individual conscience. But tragically for them, Luther's siding with the princes in the peasant rising, which he had largely inspired, and his passion for political autocracy ensured a mindless and provincial political absolutism which reduced the vast majority of the German people to poverty, to a horrible torpor and a demeaning subservience. Even worse perhaps, it helped to perpetuate and indeed to sharpen the hopeless divisions not only between classes but also between the various dynastic and political groupings of the German people. It doomed for centuries the possibility of the unification of Germany."

In Mein Kampf, Hitler listed Martin Luther as one of the greatest reformers. And similar to Luther in the 1500s, Hitler spoke against the Jews. The Nazi plan to create a German Reich Church laid its bases on the "Spirit of Dr. Martin Luther." The first physical violence against the Jews came on November 9-10 on Kristallnacht (Crystal Night) where the Nazis killed Jews, shattered glass windows, and destroyed hundreds of synagogues, just as Luther had proposed. In Daniel Johah Goldhagen's book, Hitler's Willing Executioners, he writes:

"One leading Protestant churchman, Bishop Martin Sasse published a compendium of Martin Luther's antisemitic vitriol shortly after Kristallnacht's orgy of anti-Jewish violence. In the foreword to the volume, he applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day: 'On November 10, 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.' The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words 'of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.'"...

Walter Buch, the head of the Nazi Party court, admitted Luther's influence on Nazi Germany:

"When Luther turned his attention to the Jews, after he completed his translation of the Bible, he left behind "on the Jews and their Lies" for posterity."
-cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]...

Bernhard Rust served as Minister of Education in Nazi Germany. He wrote:

"Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance.... I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp [Schrot und Korn]."
-Volkischer Beobachter, 25 Aug. 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich] ...

Julius Streicher (one of Hitler's top henchmen and publisher of the anti-Semitic Der Sturmer) was asked during the Nuremberg trials if there were any other publications in Germany which treated the Jewish question in an anti-Semitic way., Streicher put it well:

"Dr. Martin Luther would very probably sit in my place in the defendants' dock today, if this book had been taken into consideration by the Prosecution. In the book 'The Jews and Their Lies,' Dr. Martin Luther writes that the Jews are a serpent's brood and one should burn down their synagogues and destroy them..."

Indeed, no historian has yet to put Martin Luther on trial for his incitement of crimes against humanity.

Today, white-supremacists and Neo-Nazis continue to spread Luther's Jewish hatred and use quotes from this book as "proof" of their convictions...

Quotes from Martin Luther's "On the Jews and their lies," 1543

Luther's Introduction:

I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen. ...

Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them. ...

Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery, as arch-thieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security. ...

Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts? ...

Alas, it cannot be anything but the terrible wrath of God which permits anyone to sink into such abysmal, devilish, hellish, insane baseness, envy, and arrogance. If I were to avenge myself on the devil himself I should be unable to wish him such evil and misfortune as God's wrath inflicts on the Jews, compelling them to lie and to blaspheme so monstrously, in violation of their own conscience. Anyway, they have their reward for constantly giving God the lie. ...

No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

...but then eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!

Over and above that we let them get rich on our sweat and blood, while we remain poor and they such the marrow from our bones. ...

In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule-- if my counsel does not please your, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews, lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, this dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us. . . . With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my conscience. ...

Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. ...

However, we must avoid confirming them in their wanton lying, slandering, cursing, and defaming. Nor dare we make ourselves partners in their devilish ranting and raving by shielding and protecting them, by giving them food, drink, and shelter, or by other neighborly acts. ...

Therefore we Christians, in turn, are obliged not to tolerate their wanton and conscious blasphemy...

Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...

Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...

Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...

Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it...

He who hears this name [God] from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away. ...

If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country.

...they remain our daily murderers and bloodthirsty foes in their hearts. Their prayers and curses furnish evidence of that, as do the many stories which relate their torturing of children and all sorts of crimes for which they have often been burned at the stake or banished.

-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm

Some other of Martin Luther's books:

Several months after publishing On the Jews and Their Lies, Luther wrote Vom Schem Hamphoras und vom Geschlecht Christi (Of the Unknowable Name and the Generations of Christ)', in which he equated Jews with the Devil:

..."When Judas hanged himself and his bowels gushed forth, and, as happens in such cases, his bladder also burst, the Jews were ready to catch the Judas-water and the other precious things, and then they gorged and swilled on the merd among themselves, and were thereby endowed with such a keenness of sight that they can perceive glosses in the Scriptures such as neither Matthew nor Isaiah himself . . .would be able to detect; or perhaps they looked into the loin of their God “Shed,” and found these things written in that smokehole ...

The Devil has eased himself and emptied his belly again — that is a real halidom for Jews and would-be Jews, to kiss, batten on, swill and adore; and then the Devil in his turn also devours and swills what these good pupils spue and eject from above and below ...

The Devil, with his angelic snout, devours what exudes from the oral and anal apertures of the Jews; this is indeed his favorite dish, on which he battens like a sow behind the hedge ... "[20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_the_Jews

***Cyranothe2nd*** · Apr 14th, 2009 7:20 PM

Originally Posted by Assassin X

2. Hes catholic not christian. I don't give a fuck what people say that they are the same thing, they are not. Maybe at one time or they split..etc. But now...they are not. Catholics have their own buildings and their own beliefs, christians have their own buildings and their own beliefs...hell even christians have separate denominations... point being catholics and christians are two seperate groups. Both catholics and christians know this. You don't se catholics going to christian churches and vica versa....why? Because its two diffrent faiths. And I'd get into that but I'd rather not.

No, Christians and Catholics are NOT two different faith. Catholics and Protestants are two different faiths. Catholics and Protestants are both sects of Christianity.

***Goldmoon*** · Apr 14th, 2009 8:27 PM

No, Christians and Catholics are NOT two different faith. Catholics and Protestants are two different faiths. Catholics and Protestants are both sects of Christianity.

Thanks for posting that, Cyrano. Its too bad so many people think that Catholicism is the same, its probably the reason many don't take mind to Jesus' true teachings.

In fact, the Catholic Church has changed the commandments of Christ, and has their own sparate Bible, which is different than true Christianity.

Here are the main differences, Christians have a personal relationship to Christ, and don't worship Mary and the Pope as Catholics do. Christians don't go confess to a man. Christians don't bow down to any image or idol, but Catholics do.

In fact, Christianity is often classed as not being a religion, since all the Christian needs is faith in Jesus the Christ. The christian can be in the middle of a desert naked, and still be in Christ.

Often there are hypocrites in the churches, this is normal, but true christians are "born again" in Christ, this is when He comes into their lives and creates a new nature inside their hearts, changing them radically and permanently for life, often people who know them can't even explain it because they are so surprised at the change.

***Assassin X*** · Apr 14th, 2009 11:29 PM

^What he said^

If we are all the same we wouldn't have seperate things. I have a pastor, my grandmother has a priest. She confesses toa priest, I confess to god...and thats if I want to. Catholics have strict rules...robotic rules. Yes you can state christians are no diffrent. But point being we are two diffrent groups. They have mass, we have service. They talk about mary like she is god, we don't. They have the pope, we don't. Need I go on.

***Traveler*** · Apr 15th, 2009 3:06 AM

Well one thing is for sure, Hitler was not an atheist, he believed in God all right.

The only problem is that he did what many are doing to day and mixing and matching religions to form some adulterated thing that fits nowhere in particular.

He was wiping out the Jews for two reasons, one. he believed that they were Christ killers which also indicates that he didn’t actually understand the Christian message in the first place because Christ was actually supposed to die on the cross.

And second he had gotten hold of a copy of the protocols of the learned elders of Zion and believed that the Jews had a conspiracy to take over the world by economic means that he had to stop.

***Assassin X*** · Apr 15th, 2009 4:04 AM

Yeah thats why I say he isn't a christian. To many new agers btw mix things from whatever they want and think they are "spiritual" or some weird shit. A religion, a cult, a whatever is out there....its out there for a reason. If you mix something from something else you no longer are anything.

If I become a christian and a wiccan guess what? I am nothing....... I just have a screwed up head and THINK I am a better person when I am not. Sure you may think this or that but in reallity the special gifts and thing you choose to believe in do not apply to you.

For example again if I am a wiccan and a christian I will NOT be going to heaven because I am not really a christian. I just choose pick what I need from the religion. Just like from the wiccan parts I can't do stuff that I choose and think its gonna work. Anyhting that I think is happening because its basically a placebo effect. You think therefor you are.

I am fine if people want to be these mixed things but everyone knows when it comse down to it the new generations of people are way to desperate for answers and are now turning to radical means to try and find them. Now you got people thinking they got supoer powers, thinking they are all special, thinking everything is..well...you get my point. Sure I may believe in some things myself but at least I have a religion. Not parts of various ones.

**lycanox** · Apr 15th, 2009 5:00 AM

It's actually the christian religion that so inspired Nazi ideology. The founder of the christian Protestant religion, Martin Luther, laid the groundwork for the Nazi instigation of the Jewish holocaust, with his religious calls for the extermination of the Jews.

Not true, Hitler merely addressed to him because they had antisemitism in common.
And Luther never mentioned anything about the Aryans, Semites and other root races.

If you look to Nazi symbolism, the accurate Nazi theories that were the groundwork behind the holocaust, and Hitlers religion.
Its very clear that Madame Blavatsky's, Theosophy laid large parts of the foundation of Nazism. And not any of the Christian faiths.

***calliope*** · Apr 15th, 2009 8:21 AM

Originally Posted by lycanox

Not true, Hitler merely addressed to him because they had antisemitism in common.
And Luther never mentioned anything about the Aryans, Semites and other root races.

If you look to Nazi symbolism, the accurate Nazi theories that were the groundwork behind the holocaust, and Hitlers religion.
Its very clear that Madame Blavatsky's, Theosophy laid large parts of the foundation of Nazism. And not any of the Christian faiths.

It's true that the Nazi's mysticism was influenced by eastern philosophies, European pre-christian paganism and esoteric chrisitianity, as well as Charles Darwin, but as many scholars have written, the formulating groundwork for their pogroms was laid by Martin Luther's brand of chrisitanity. None of these other influences called for the outright extermination and demonization of the Jews. Martin Luther's christianity did. And the holocaust most probably would not have happened without Luther's "memetic seeds". So much so that Hitler came to see Jesus as a heroic figure fighting against the Jews, in his ideals of an Aryan chrisitianity. From the above paper:

"So vehemently did Luther speak against the Jews, and the fact that Luther represented an honorable and admired Christian to Protestants, that his written words carried the "memetic" seeds of anti-Jewishness up until the 20th century and into the Third Reich. Luther's Jewish eliminationist rhetoric virtually matches the beliefs held by Hitler and much of the German populace in the 1930s.

Luther unconsciously set the stage for the future of German nationalistic fanaticism. William L. Shirer in his "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," puts it succinctly:

"Through his sermons and his magnificent translations of the Bible, Luther created the modern German language, aroused in the people not only a new Protestant vision of Christianity by a fervent German nationalism and taught them, at least in religion, the supremacy of the individual conscience. But tragically for them, Luther's siding with the princes in the peasant rising, which he had largely inspired, and his passion for political autocracy ensured a mindless and provincial political absolutism which reduced the vast majority of the German people to poverty, to a horrible torpor and a demeaning subservience....""

Another leading Nazi:

Hans Hinkel, leader of the Luther League's magazine Deutsche Kultur-Wacht, and of the Berlin chapter of the Kampfbund, paid tribute to Luther in his acceptance speech as head of both the Jewish section and the film department of Goebbel's Chamber of Culture and Propaganda Ministry.

"Through his acts and his spiritual attitude, he began the fight which we will wage today; with Luther, the revolution of German blood and feeling against alien elements of the Volk was begun. To continue and complete his Protestantism, nationalism must make the picture of Luther, of a German fighter, live as an example above the barriers of confession for all German blood comrades."
(Steigmann-Gall 2003, p. 137.).

**lycanox** · Apr 15th, 2009 12:34 PM

However the theories that Hitler Used as reasoning behind the holocaust were clearly not Christian but occult in origin. As Luther never mentioned the seven root races in his teachings.

Its known that Hitler got most of his ideas from the Thule society, which were followers of Theosophy. The fact that Hitler choose theosophic symbolism instead of Christian symbolism is a strong evidence for this.
After all his army fought under the Swastika. Not the cross.
And the SS temples were filled with Germanic mythological gods. Not Christian idols.

Hitler however did used Christian examples to appeal to the population.
Which he did with nearly every famous person that happened to fit in his propaganda.

But in Hitlers view Martin Luther was just a rare manifestation of racial purity which allowed him to see visions of the truth. Which Luther then unfortunately mixed with Christianity.

***Max*** · Apr 15th, 2009 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Assassin X

Yeah thats why I say he isn't a christian. To many new agers btw mix things from whatever they want and think they are "spiritual" or some weird shit. A religion, a cult, a whatever is out there....its out there for a reason. If you mix something from something else you no longer are anything.

Kind of like how every single aspect of christianity is stolen from various older religions and cults ey?

Jesus, oh im sorry, i mean Mithra has a lot to answer for!

***Traveler*** · Apr 15th, 2009 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by Max

Kind of like how every single aspect of christianity is stolen from various older religions and cults ey?

Jesus, oh im sorry, i mean Mithra has a lot to answer for!

That statement is a deception that was introduced with the intention of discrediting and undermining the religious faith of the country.

The results of these actions is that Britain is no longer called great or respected as world power and its empire is now a more common than wealth whose majority of members are actually anti British which they consider colonial instigators of trouble.

You reap what you sow

**Cartesiantheater** · Apr 15th, 2009 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by Traveler

That statement is a deception that was introduced with the intention of discrediting and undermining the religious faith of the country.

[...]

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. You've introduced a conspiracy theory (that Mitrha was invented to discredit Christianity), which unfortunately cannot be disproved by its nature. Is is reasonable to believe that Christianity borrowed a lot from other religions, however. Even Justin the Martyr thinks it is reasonable at first glance (although he attributes the similarities to the Devil, naturally)

Originally Posted by Justin the Martyr

Be well assured, then, Trypho, that I am established in the knowledge of and faith in the Scriptures by those counterfeits which he who is called the devil is said to have performed among the Greeks; just as some were wrought by the Magi in Egypt, and others by the false prophets in Elijah's days. For when they tell that Bacchus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that the devil has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses? And when they tell that Hercules was strong, and traveled over all the world, and was begotten by Jove of Alcmene, and ascended to heaven when he died, do I not perceive that the Scripture which speaks of Christ, 'strong as a giant to run his race,' has been in like manner imitated? And when the devil brings forward Asclepius as the raiser of the dead and healer of all diseases, may I not say that in this matter likewise he has imitated the prophecies about Christ? . . . And when those who record the mysteries of Mithras say that he was begotten of a rock, and call the place where those who believe in him are initiated a cave, do I not perceive here that the utterance of Daniel, that a stone without hands was cut out of a great mountain, has been imitated by them, and that they have attempted likewise to imitate the whole of Isaiah's words?

Of course, he attributes these similarities to Satan trying to preemptively deceive the world into not believing the stories of Christ, etc...

Then you got guys like Zalmoxis, who by some was believed to be a religious reformer who taught of the immortality of the soul, and by others who was believed to be the one true God who lived for three years in Hades before resurrecting to the world of the living. Fairly uncanny parallel, at least in the generalities.

But again, we cannot really be sure what the true case is here, especially since you, like Justin the Martyr, argue that any apparent similarities between Christ and deities before him are the work of the Deceiver.

But at least we can all be sure that Hitler was NOT an atheist, since this is the topic, and he wasn't what we would call a Christian either, in terms of faith doctrines.

***Freddy*** · Apr 15th, 2009 8:06 PM

Whatever faith Hitler held he gave the appearence of attending Catholic Mass. In 1933 Hitler created his own church, the Reich Church, which he planned to head and replace Jesus as the New Christ. His plan failed.

***Cyranothe2nd*** · Apr 15th, 2009 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by Traveler

That statement is a deception that was introduced with the intention of discrediting and undermining the religious faith of the country.

Really? Because I've been reading a lot of Greek works that predate Christianity by many hundreds of years and the cult of Dionysus seems eerily similar to Christianity. And there is no way that Aescylus could be a fake, because he's mentioned in so many other works, including Roman greats like Ovid.

***Goldmoon*** · Apr 15th, 2009 9:02 PM

Woe unto the scribes and pharisees?

***Cyranothe2nd*** · Apr 15th, 2009 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Goldmoon

Woe unto the scribes and pharisees?

Um...okay?

***Assassin X*** · Apr 17th, 2009 2:32 AM

Ok after some recent turn of events it appears I need to expand on my post. My post about wiccans, powers.....etc... its NOT about anyone at AO. I was referencing the world in general.

I use wiccans because they are the opposite of Christians in my religion. Just like sour is the oppisite of sweet. I have nothing against them, but for examples I just use them as such. And frankly when I think about it I don't know why since I really have no problem them. Everyone at AO knows I don't even really believe in my religion anyways at times nor do I believe the wiccan thing is as bad as christianity claims.

As for the powers, special....etc thing I said. once again not refering to people at AO even though we know who we are at AO that have such and are such. I was refering to the TO many people that think they are such. I believe, and I believe this may be the first time I have said this to publically, that there are people with powers, people that are special. Such as some of the members at AO. I know without doubt some of us are.

But to many people now a days think theya re beacuse they search for answers and draw th conclusion they are too. And they are not. Everyone can't be special or have powers...etc. It would defeat the purpose if everyone was. That was my point. I was not refering to anyone here though. However I do think anyone that is special or has powers...etc. does seem to be drawn to AO. So the legit ones do exist here.

On another note I did NOT mean people are wrong if they search for their answers from everywhere. Well its complicated. I guess we all search in our own ways. I guess I just believe if its not from on specific religion, spirituality....whatever then its kinda like your only trying to look for the good stuff from everything you find and ignore what yuo don't like...in that case your not searching for answers but an escape instead. Which is good in some ways but bad in others. Thats not true happyness. Just a cover.

I may not be right in my religion. You may not be right in what you believe in...no one knows! But in the end if it makes you happy then thats what counts. Just remember this is my opinion, just like yours is yours. So don't be offended by mine, kind of would defeat the purpose of having an opinion then.

**Cartesiantheater** · Apr 17th, 2009 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by Assassin X

Yeah thats why I say he isn't a christian. To many new agers btw mix things from whatever they want and think they are "spiritual" or some weird shit. A religion, a cult, a whatever is out there....its out there for a reason. If you mix something from something else you no longer are anything.

If I become a christian and a wiccan guess what? I am nothing....... I just have a screwed up head and THINK I am a better person when I am not. Sure you may think this or that but in reallity the special gifts and thing you choose to believe in do not apply to you.

For example again if I am a wiccan and a christian I will NOT be going to heaven because I am not really a christian. I just choose pick what I need from the religion. Just like from the wiccan parts I can't do stuff that I choose and think its gonna work. Anyhting that I think is happening because its basically a placebo effect. You think therefor you are.

I am fine if people want to be these mixed things but everyone knows when it comse down to it the new generations of people are way to desperate for answers and are now turning to radical means to try and find them. Now you got people thinking they got supoer powers, thinking they are all special, thinking everything is..well...you get my point. Sure I may believe in some things myself but at least I have a religion. Not parts of various ones.

And what if the version of Christianity you believe in has been distorted the last 2000 years? Wouldn't that make you NOT a "real" Christian?

After all, you have to go by what OTHER people told you Jesus said, since Jesus himself never wrote anything in the Bible.

How do you know that the accounts of the apostles are completely correct?

For that matter, how do you know that some guy didn't add stuff in 100 years after the fact? After all, the earliest documents of the gospels we have are dated to about 150 years AFTER the birth of Christ.

In other words, there is plenty of room for someone to not only add their own two cents to the gospels, there's also the possibility that the original authors embellished the stories or inserted their own theological slant into them.

I've always wondered exactly why Christians are so quick to accept the stories as literally 100% true, yet so quick to say that Christians who believe additional things are not "true" Christians. How do they even know that THEY are "true" Christians?

***Goldmoon*** · Apr 17th, 2009 9:53 AM

And what if the version of Christianity you believe in has been distorted the last 2000 years? Wouldn't that make you NOT a "real" Christian?

I've always wondered exactly why Christians are so quick to accept the stories as literally 100% true, yet so quick to say that Christians who believe additional things are not "true" Christians. How do they even know that THEY are "true" Christians?

Its an inner change of heart, coming to Christ, a humbling without regard to what others think. When He comes into you, and you hold yourself accountable to Him, the outer changes are just fruits from the inner. Its the scribes and pharisees that only care about the outer, the teachers of religious law are hypocrites, for they have not the Holy Spirit within.

The message is still the same, and plus, everything comes from Christ Himself, He shows us, we call upon Him and love Him, and He shows us His glory, even without the scripture. One of the reasons he often spoke in parables was so that the wicked wouldn't even understand it, and therefore His message would stay the same. The gospel is the power of God, and through all those years could never be broken. Christians were beheaded, hated, and the wicked tried to destroy it, but the everlasting gospel lives on. It is an anvil that has worn out many hammers.

Some people will support me on this because they know what I mean, I have been on the other side as well, so I'm not undermining anyone. Just seek Christ out, and if you're right for Him, He will show you. In fact, believe in Him. This is the honest to God truth.

----------------------

Topic: Why do people think Hitler was an atheist?

He was a Catholic.

**Cartesiantheater** · Apr 17th, 2009 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Goldmoon

Its an inner change of heart, coming to Christ, a humbling without regard to what others think. When He comes into you, and you hold yourself accountable to Him, the outer changes are just fruits from the inner. Its the scribes and pharisees that only care about the outer, the teachers of religious law are hypocrites, for they have not the Holy Spirit within.

Yeah, but you are talking about personal experience. I am talking about specific doctrine and scripture. The two are not the same.

But the rest of your quote brings up my point.

Originally Posted by Goldmoon

The message is still the same, and plus, everything comes from Christ Himself, He shows us, we call upon Him and love Him, and He shows us His glory, even without the scripture. One of the reasons he often spoke in parables was so that the wicked wouldn't even understand it, and therefore His message would stay the same. The gospel is the power of God, and through all those years could never be broken. Christians were beheaded, hated, and the wicked tried to destroy it, but the everlasting gospel lives on. It is an anvil that has worn out many hammers.

What is the difference between the Gospel and the gospels?

It seems you are saying that the general message has not changed. That is true. The general message has always been that Christ died for the sins of mankind (at least since the inception of what we call Christianity- there was some argument about the true general message at first, but it was stamped out around the third century by the dominant group, as always happens, and perhaps some additions to scripture prior to 150 years after the birth of Christ helped to that end).

But that still doesn't mean that the exact scripture wasn't written by theologically biased men. Nor does it mean that the actual written word hasn't been changed.

By what evidence do you base your claim upon that no one has ever altered in any way what you call the written gospels, and what evidence do you base your claim that the original documents of the gospels accurately describe what happened and what Jesus actually said? Faith? Is faith all you have here?

The bottom line is that prior to a few hundred years after the fact, there were MANY MANY gospels, some with rather conflicting theological perspectives, but they were deemed heresy by the people with political power.

How do you know that the people who happened to have political power made the right decision? Faith?