New relationship of 666

[autryn2]

dcookcan wrote:
"Who was Jesus, was he God (i.e. unchanging) or just a man?"
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I believe Jesus was who He said He was:

From John Chapter 14:
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[1] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

And from Matthew 23rd Chapter:
Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ

And from John Chapter 8:
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
20"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
21Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
22This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"
23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[1] you will indeed die in your sins."
25"Who are you?" they asked.
26"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."
27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
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The Methodist Church (which I am a member of) docterine states that we believe that God exists as a trinity ... one being-three parts (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior of our world, sent by His Father, God, to die for the sins of the world. Does this make Him the same entity as God??? I dunno, but CERTAINLY He is one in purpose with God.

[LC Jeffries]

Bravo Autryn, Bravo.

[dcookcan]

Didn't Jesus say "Before Abraham was, I Am." John 8:58

So what was He saying then?

This statement upset the Pharisees in a big way. They new exactly what He was saying and they didn't like it.

14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

Why was His testimony valid if He testifies of Himself?
"By the testimony of two or three witnesses, a matter is confirmed." New or Old Testament, take yer pick - I don't have the references handy.

I can answer these questions for you, but my purpose is to make you think about it.

[autryn2]

dcookcan wrote:

"Why was His testimony valid if He testifies of Himself? "
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Me-n-uou, dcookcan, are looking at this statement from two different perspectives: Yours (I think) is from the argumentative point of view in that you are using 'rules of engagement' in trying to explain why Jesus' testamony is not valid. (the 'rule' is that all men need 2 or 3 witnesses for their testimony to be valid).

My point of view is that Jesus IS (in reality - not merely claim) the Son of God.... therefore He KNOWS who He is, why He is here (on earth), what He must do while He is here, and where He is going after He accomplishes His mission. The Pharisees, on the other hand, were using human 'rules of engagement' to argue with (what they thought) was just another man.

The above argument is about Authority, not winning an argument. Jesus was saying that he didn't need any other witnesses than the ultimate witness: His father God... because God had given Him (Jesus) that authority.

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BTW, dcookcan, I enjoy your point of view.... its obvious you are learned.

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dcookcan wrote:

"Didn't Jesus say "Before Abraham was, I Am." John 8:58

So what was He saying then?"
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In the same chaper, Jesus said this before He said the above:

56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
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In my opinion, Jesus was telling them more than just one thing (at least, it tells me more than one). First, He was saying that there is another place, other than earth, where people live (Heaven), and that He was destined to be the Christ before the earthly birth of Abraham.

It also testifies to me that this earth is probably not the first earth...

Think about some scripture first.....
In revelations: and then there will be a new Heaven and a new Earth (but no mention of a new people)
In the New Testament: those that do the will of my Father in Heaven, THOSE are my mother and my brothers (implying that it takes ACTION.... obedience to God.... to be elevated in the Kingdom of Heaven)....

So.... why is Christ the Son of God???? My GUESS is that He is because of His actions and not that He was just 'appointed' by His heavenly Father prior to the beginning of this world. Which implies that this earth and our existence here is not the first and that Christ got the call to be savior of this world because God could trust Him to be faithful with His father's difficult mission to die as a sarcifice for many. Maybe Jesus EARNED that trust in a former life.....

The above falls under the category of "things I wonder about" but don't profess as being true (just a possibility).
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I DO profess this, however, as being true:

From Matthew Chapter 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. "
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So whether this is the first time or not I accept Jesus's authority as Gods' appointed messiah.

[dcookcan]

Me-n-uou, dcookcan, are looking at this statement from two different perspectives: Yours (I think) is from the argumentative point of view in that you are using 'rules of engagement' in trying to explain why Jesus' testamony is not valid. (the 'rule' is that all men need 2 or 3 witnesses for their testimony to be valid).

Not so. His testimony was valid. I am mearly challenging your thought process. He had to fulfill the Law and the Prophets - perfectly. But His statement would seem to contradict the Laws that God set in place.

The Pharisees, on the other hand, were using human 'rules of engagement' to argue with (what they thought) was just another man.

These were not man's rules. They were set in place by God (see Hebrews 10:28 I don't have the O.T. reference(s) in front of me) and we can see Jesus referencing them in other places such as the woman caught in adultery - "Where are your accusers?".

BTW - thanks - I am enjoying this discussion.

The answer to this puzzle is not found in a simple "Greek" thought process, you may have to dig deep to find the answer, but it will be well worth it.

[Defiant Noquisi]

Defiant Noquisi:

My Bible (NIV) reads:

14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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I'm no expert, but I think the author is trying to say that people who haven't accepted the Holy Spirit (eg, not saved) cannot understand the things that come from the Spirit of God. I DON'T think the author is trying to say certain people don't need to know Christ. :~)

You bring up something very interesting because of the various versions. It can be and is very hard to decipher the exact intent of the author. Im a very practical person. Since the most traditional of spiritual Indian people have not lost "contact" with the Creator and since the Creator has never suggested to these people that we have to turn to another religion, I dont. There has never been a time in our history that it has been required of us to seek "salvation" or "saving".

What has been most difficult for me in discussions with people of other religious persuasions(virtually all Christian), is that they cannot see any validity in mine. I have been called all sorts of things from "devil worshipper" to "blasphemer" without that person understanding that I happen to be a very spiritual person and have no problem or weakness in my belief of "God". My beliefs are held with complete disregard mostly, because they are not Christian based beliefs.

. the people you described in your other posts were NOT Christians based on their actions. Rather, they were "wolves in sheep's clothing". Jesus tells us to beware and avoid these people.

Hehe, I already do even if he didnt tell me. I am one of the few who welcome the changes coming. We dont have anyone "marked" with any kind of beastial number, well leave that up to those who it is significant for.

Thanks for the apologies. However, if you are living your life in the ways your beliefs are meant to be, and you are not forcing or subjugating others to your beliefs, you have no reason to have to apologize for anything. You arent the guilty party.

[autryn2]

Defiant Noquisi:
I am SO glad you came back and read my post.... I thought maybe you wouldn't. You wrote: "you have no reason to have to apologize for anything".

Well, ....yeah, BUT I am equal parts sorry that others have 'tainted' your conception of what Christianity (and the Christian God) is and MAD at those who have committed this grevous sin. Jesus told His desciples to stay away from even the appearence of evil so others wouldn't think of Him or God His father as being false. Jesus ESPECIALLY was condemming of those that cause the innocent to go astray: "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. "
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Defiant Noquisi wrote:
"There has never been a time in our history that it has been required of us to seek "salvation" or "saving". What has been most difficult for me in discussions with people of other religious persuasions(virtually all Christian), is that they cannot see any validity in mine.
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I think BOTH of your statements can be explained by the following scripture:

From Matthew Chapter 28:
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
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The above scripture is called the "Great Commission". It is Christ commanding all believers to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to ALL THE WORLD. People who really believe in Christ take the above scripture VERY seriously. We believe that Christ is our Boss (Lord, Master, etc...) and that we are supposed to be obedient to His orders.... SO, we are to take the Gospel (the story of Jesus) to the WHOLE WORLD. To the one that takes his(her) orders seriously, that means to tell everyone. Jesus knew that in other parts of the world people believed in other things but He didn't say go and spread the gospel only to those that have no other religion. He said to "make disciples of all nations"--- EVERYBODY (and I'm pretty sure that includes the Indian tribes and you, my dear).

I understand it when you say that "there has never been a time in OUR history that it has been required of us to seek salvation or saving". The responsibility of spreading the Gospel is upon the believer, not the one who hasn't heard the Gospel. Thats probably why the "Real Christians" are so pushy about their beliefs.
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Defiant Noquisi wrote:
"What has been most difficult for me in discussions with people of other religious persuasions(virtually all Christian), is that they cannot see any validity in mine. "
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Jesus also said in the Gospel "I am the way, the truth, and the Life. No man commeth unto the Father except by me". Jesus was saying that He is the ONLY way to God (and Heaven) so those pushy Christians that have no respect for the purity and strength of your faith think they are saving you from an eternity of fire (even though they are hard to put up with).
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I guess the purpose of my post to you is to help you understand that Christians are, after all, just people.... with a multitude of faults. SOME are trying (real hard) to represent God on this world. They are destined to fall short (even if they are dilligent and pure of heart) because people are flawed (like me) and God is PERFECT. So, try not to think that Christianity is false because those that represent Christ many times do such a lousy job (indeed, there are many who really DON'T believe at all, but just SAY they do to gain some sort of earthly advantage..... belive me, they have their reward waiting on them).

[Defiant Noquisi]

Defiant Noquisi:
I am SO glad you came back and read my post.... I thought maybe you wouldn't.

Naw, I wouldnt not read it. Im kind of in and out these days. Ive been taking pics of my mom's things and posting them up for my brother so we can decide what we want. That has not been easy at all but it has forced me to deal with her death. I have been having a very hard time with it. Im not entirely "sociable" yet but Im getting there.

BUT I am equal parts sorry that others have 'tainted' your conception of what Christianity (and the Christian God) is and MAD at those who have committed this grevous sin.

To be honest Ive done alot of thinking after that post. I have to say that there is a 3-way tie between the "bad stuff", bible study and connecting with my heritage that has led me away from the Christian church. Still, you may be upset with those who "say" they are living by "the word" but if you arent doing it yourself then you are not responsible. Id never expect you to apologize for Swaggart or Bakker either.

I think BOTH of your statements can be explained by the following scripture:

From Matthew Chapter 28:
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
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The above scripture is called the "Great Commission". It is Christ commanding all believers to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to ALL THE WORLD.

Here is an example of where things get dicey for me and where I started to have my doubts. The Corinthians passage applies here too because you are correct in that it doesnt "directly" identify one race of people, but does identify those who would not believe "the word". Here goes...

Nowhere did I find anything, through bible study or asking those more knowledgable, could I find what that exactly meant. Since nowhere in the scriptures does it identify knowledge of other continents or cultures outside of those directly affected by "the word", how can it apply elsewhere? Yes, there is a passage about going out among the Gentiles, but thats where it stops. Nowhere does it discuss anything about other continents or regions outside of the Jewish/Christian/Roman area. In fact, no one in those areas even knew of the existance of other continents other than through trade of which there was none with what is now known as the Americas.

Since the bible stops there in regards to the spreading of the teachings, it is my belief that if true, was meant for only the people in the regions it was written for. In other words "all nations" that have direct contact with those whose job it was to spread said word.

Since Christian people have since moved "here" the same still applies in my opinion. You can have it and you can share it with those interested, but for someone to say that *I* am going to burn in hell because I dont follow it is way out of line.

People who really believe in Christ take the above scripture VERY seriously. We believe that Christ is our Boss (Lord, Master, etc...) and that we are supposed to be obedient to His orders.... SO, we are to take the Gospel (the story of Jesus) to the WHOLE WORLD.

I dont doubt the seriousness, Ive been there. I do doubt the intent. Again, since the bible doesnt specifically mention other continents, I dont believe it applies to the Americas. Also, since the bible is supposedly divinely inspired, Im having difficulty in that the Americas (I know they wernt called that at the time since no one knew of them) were never mentioned.

He said to "make disciples of all nations"--- EVERYBODY (and I'm pretty sure that includes the Indian tribes and you, my dear).

As I mentioned before, since our Elders and all our traditional people (and not so traditional like me) hold a very close relationship with the Creator and since the Creator has never brought this up to us, I dont believe it. I will if the Creator ever does. Apparently there is no need. Since there is no need, this is where the problem begins. Thats mighty presumptuous to think we should be made "disciples" in YOUR view. That is disregarding OUR (as in Indian) beliefs since weve never been asked to do this. If the Creator intended us to be disciples, he would tell us to do that. You are assuming that we have no relationship or belief in the Creator. Also, why should I believe the words of man when something much higher does not tell me to do this?

Jesus also said in the Gospel "I am the way, the truth, and the Life. No man commeth unto the Father except by me". Jesus was saying that He is the ONLY way to God (and Heaven) so those pushy Christians that have no respect for the purity and strength of your faith think they are saving you from an eternity of fire (even though they are hard to put up with).

True but even the ones that arent pushy look down on me and my beliefs since I do not believe in a heaven or a hell. I believe the earth will be cleansed and brought back to a more virtuous state, but I do not believe that I need to go through anyone other than the Creator to get there. We have no beliefs in a "marked" person that will bring this about, but we do believe that the cleansing will come. I dont not believe Jesus existed, there are too many historical works that mention him. I dont believe he is my saviour since it hasnt been required of me that I needed one.

I guess the purpose of my post to you is to help you understand that Christians are, after all, just people.... with a multitude of faults.

I accept and know that people have faults. I just wish those same people werent compelled to "save" me or see me as "wrong" in that I have my own (as well as millions of people like me) relationship with the Creator. I dont need man to interpret for me what the Creator already has.