Political Extremes

[Becks]

I was away for a while and just wanted to throw a few comments out there about something I've noticed on the forums since I came back. Mostly my ramblings, and feel free to discuss but it's mostly just my observation.

Without calling anyone out on it, I just want to say that I'm frightened sometimes by how people lately seem to be swinging to political extremes. I've noticed it's mostly Americans (but not most Americans) on AO that come across this way and I've been trying to figure out what the cause of it is.

There is mudslinging at both sides and I don't understand the point of calling out stupid things that your opposing party has done. Maybe perhaps this is my Canadian mentality (aka witticism and sarcasm) towards politics but I don't praise the party I vote for and slag off the rest. Every idiot politician is fair game to me! I vote because it's my right and responsibility but for me it's always been about voting for the lesser of the evils. I can also respect people who choose not to vote in stance of not liking any of their options; that's a right and responsibility in itself.

I mean in all honesty, the point of this that perplexes me the most is the fact that no matter what political party you stand for, politicians in general are mostly liars so what does it matter what the other side is doing?

I know it probably isn't a typical American mentality and there must be quite a few that are neutral (I know a few of them) simply due to the fact that you have popular satiric shows such as Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. I just find it odd because the only Canadians I have ever come across that are so one-sided and praising of a particular party are the politicians themselves.

Is it just uber-fanaticism about your President or feeling like in the US there is less choice and fewer political freedoms? If I go on television and disagree with the Prime Minister and call him a butt-face and say he should be kicked out on the curb that won't land me on a no-fly list, but more likely land me a few high-fives.

Just a few ramblings of a patient, educated, "left of the centre, but not too leftist".

[Cartesiantheater]

[...]
I mean in all honesty, the point of this that perplexes me the most is the fact that no matter what political party you stand for, politicians in general are mostly liars so what does it matter what the other side is doing?

Hmmm... I don't really see the logic in following your policy here. Just because you have nothing to chose from but liars doesn't mean that the end result of choosing either will be the same. Far from it.

Politics is BASED upon subtle deception, so ALL of them will use deceptive tactics. That certainly does NOT mean that the end result you get will be the same regardless of their party or political views.


I've never understood why people so readily accept that sort of reasoning. It is logically bankrupt.

I know it probably isn't a typical American mentality and there must be quite a few that are neutral (I know a few of them) simply due to the fact that you have popular satiric shows such as Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert.

Ironically both Stewart and Colbert are liberals/democrats.

I just find it odd because the only Canadians I have ever come across that are so one-sided and praising of a particular party are the politicians themselves.

Americans aren't universally that way either. You are simply perceiving it that way, probably due to some undetected bias within your own mind.

The reality is that there is dirt flung by both sides, and supporters of one particular side will generally fight to counter the BULLSHIT thrown by the other side.

Is it just uber-fanaticism about your President or feeling like in the US there is less choice and fewer political freedoms?

Defense of Obama on THIS forum is generally because there is quite a bit of misinformation and deliberate deception about him coming from the right these days (as if that is anything new: Exhibit A, Karl Rove).

On the other hand, Obama ran on a very peachy and popularist campaign, knowing full well that some Americans would misinterpret what he was selling.

If I go on television and disagree with the Prime Minister and call him a butt-face and say he should be kicked out on the curb that won't land me on a no-fly list, but more likely land me a few high-fives.

Just a few ramblings of a patient, educated, "left of the centre, but not too leftist".

If you can't see that Obama has been attacked more than what a fair examination of the evidence permits than you are quite lost. Of course, I will back this statement up with a very interesting FACT of reality:

FORTY ONE PERCENT OF REPUBLICANS BELIEVE HE WASN'T BORN IN THE US. This is a FACT OF REALITY based upon polls in which they themselves tell what they believe.

In light of that, how on earth are you not able to see the complete willingness of nearly half of the party to both BELIEVE and SPREAD misinformation about their political opposition?

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...id=tS8Z4934mGR

If you can't see it, I would suspect that it's because Canadians kill too many of their brain cells partying, were it not for the logical lucidity of Canadians like Mez and Freaked Out (this barb was a counter to your generalization of Americans- don't take it too seriously ).



As for the poll results, is it because the Republican party has a lot of idiots? Or is it because they have a disproportional amount of people who are willing to believe a lie if it gives them comfort or supports their initial intuition? (exhibit B: conservatives are full of people who refuse to accept the reality of evolution by natural selection and the FACT OF REALITY that the world is billions of years old, rather than the few thousand implied by the Bible)

I'll go with the latter over the former.



Finally, I'll end this post with something a History professor of mind used to say:

You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make 'em think.

[Becks]

Hmmm... I don't really see the logic in following your policy here. Just because you have nothing to chose from but liars doesn't mean that the end result of choosing either will be the same. Far from it.

I'm not meaning regarding voting or what party a person votes for, but rather why is their mudslinging in general, because politcians are not gods so I don't understand why some people seem to hold their party in such high regard and bash everything the other party has done. The 'holier than thou attitude' is perplexing to me. Why would a Dem call out crap that Reps do when the Dems do really stupid things too, and vice versa.

Ironically both Stewart and Colbert are liberals/democrats.

Yes, they are but poking fun at the Libs/Dems is something they regularly do. Both sides are fair game to them. That's the political attitude I am used to. I vote Federal Liberal but still mock them and don't hold them in such high regard that I'm going to start pointing out everytime a Con/BQ/NDP/GP/Ind in Canada wipes their butt with $5 bill that could have been used to feed the needy. If anything, if the Libs were to wipe their butts with a $5 bill I would probably threaten that I'll vote Green Party next time to punish the silly jerks.

Americans aren't universally that way either. You are simply perceiving it that way, probably due to some undetected bias within your own mind.

I know that, that's why I used the phrases "mostly and mainly". I'm a Canadian Liberal dating a "more down the middle" guy from Houston TX who speaks his educated mind, it doesn't get any more unbiased than that. In fact, his response to my observations about American political bias is "because most Americans are nuts, and I'm from Houston where the bias is really present nowadays."

Defense of Obama on THIS forum is generally because there is quite a bit of misinformation and deliberate deception about him coming from the right these days (as if that is anything new: Exhibit A, Karl Rove).

I'm speaking more about the Presidency in general, not just Obama. I've always viewed the public's reaction towards American Presidency more like a monarchy than a political leader. Is this what leads to my perceived fanatacism or is it a result?

If you can't see that Obama has been attacked more than what a fair examination of the evidence permits than you are quite lost.

The unfairness of attacks and the amount of scrutiny that Obama has been under is quite apparent to me. My observation is not why there is mudslinging, but why is it done to the extreme? Turn the cheek, shrug it off and let the village idiots do what idiots do.

I understand the underlying of the American views. I agree that Republicans in general are "mostly" less intelligent than Democrats, but that's not my point.

Why such an unwavering defensist attitude that's more black and white and not so much grey?

[Cartesiantheater]

I'm not meaning regarding voting or what party a person votes for, but rather why is their mudslinging in general, because politcians are not gods so I don't understand why some people seem to hold their party in such high regard and bash everything the other party has done. The 'holier than thou attitude' is perplexing to me. Why would a Dem call out crap that Reps do when the Dems do really stupid things too, and vice versa.



Yes, they are but poking fun at the Libs/Dems is something they regularly do. Both sides are fair game to them. That's the political attitude I am used to. I vote Federal Liberal but still mock them and don't hold them in such high regard that I'm going to start pointing out everytime a Con/BQ/NDP/GP/Ind in Canada wipes their butt with $5 bill that could have been used to feed the needy. If anything, if the Libs were to wipe their butts with a $5 bill I would probably threaten that I'll vote Green Party next time to punish the silly jerks.



I know that, that's why I used the phrases "mostly and mainly". I'm a Canadian Liberal dating a "more down the middle" guy from Houston TX who speaks his educated mind, it doesn't get any more unbiased than that. In fact, his response to my observations about American political bias is "because most Americans are nuts, and I'm from Houston where the bias is really present nowadays."



I'm speaking more about the Presidency in general, not just Obama. I've always viewed the public's reaction towards American Presidency more like a monarchy than a political leader. Is this what leads to my perceived fanatacism or is it a result?



The unfairness of attacks and the amount of scrutiny that Obama has been under is quite apparent to me. My observation is not why there is mudslinging, but why is it done to the extreme? Turn the cheek, shrug it off and let the village idiots do what idiots do.

I understand the underlying of the American views. I agree that Republicans in general are "mostly" less intelligent than Democrats, but that's not my point.

Why such an unwavering defensist attitude that's more black and white and not so much grey?

Ah, that makes more sense.



Well, even still, and I know this is going to only support your belief, but if you look at the uniformity in beliefs between the two major parties, you will find one that is far more homogeneous than the other. You will find one with far less internal bickering than the other.

In short, you will find one party that sees the world in black and white, and another that encompasses all the people who see it in shades of gray. Those who see it in black and white cannot in anyway compromise or in their minds they risk losing their way of life, while on the other hand, if those who encompass all the gray fail to stick together as much as they possibly can, each of them will lose out to the group that sees the world in black and white.

Surely you can see it just by looking at the two groups: one group is mostly middle class to upper class and white. Another represents by and large every single minority, and spans the very poor and uneducated to the rich and highly educated. One is a party of black and white, one is a party of grays, and the Black and Whites will not stand for a gray world, but the Gray cannot function in a black and white world.



So that is why. As far as I can tell.





As for why other countries may not have such a huge distance between the two extremes, there are several possibilities. The one I believe is most important are these two:


The US is young, and was founded on a unusually HIGH level of diversity over a very short time span. This inevitably results in such clashing world views. A lot of people want to make light of the unusual level of diversity of the US and speed at which all the diverse ways of life were thrown together, but the fact this nation is one of the most diverse ethnically ever, at least in terms of "diversity per unit time per unit area."

With such diversity, there will be so many diametrically opposed world views that you are bound to have such extremism.

[Tired Old Man]

OMG CT could be a camrade .........

[medicvet]

Surely you can see it just by looking at the two groups: one group is mostly middle class to upper class and white. Another represents by and large every single minority, and spans the very poor and uneducated to the rich and highly educated. One is a party of black and white, one is a party of grays, and the Black and Whites will not stand for a gray world, but the Gray cannot function in a black and white world.

This is spot on. If it makes me a komrade too, then so be it. ;)

[Goldmoon]

Its because of the civil war & civil unrest thats coming. The administration is using subtle tactics to promote this because they want it to happen before the end of 2010.

[Cartesiantheater]

OMG CT could be a camrade .........

Just pointing out the observable facts. Nothing I wrote about the observables was false, moreover what I wrote is supported by relatively recent scientific developments about the minds of conservatives versus the minds of liberals (Conservatives: ordered, homogeneous, static. Liberals: okay with chaos, non-homogeneous, dynamic).

It IS fact that the GOP is mostly white and middle class.

It IS fact that the majority of minorities identify with the Democrats and liberals. For example, look how little being highly religious alters the political affiliation of Black people:



Look at Asian Americans political leanings versus all Americans:



Just pointing out FACT, ToM.




It IS fact that conservatives are more easily motivated by fear, while liberals are more easily motivated by anger or holier-than-thou indignation over such pie in the sky concepts like social justice (not easy to prove this one, but it is intuitively obvious based on observing how conservatives reacted to Obama and how liberals reacted to Bush).

It IS fact that the Republicans are FAR more uniform in their beliefs than the Democrats are (evidenced by the fact that even despite a fillibuster proof majority it took the Democrats around a year to get something on health care passed, and THAT was a monstrosity of hodgepodge ideas thrown together in a most un-beautiful and inelegant way).



These are all simple facts of reality. Now, if you want to dispute reality, then perhaps you are neither a comrade nor one of the Chosen Sons of Liberty, but rather just a guy whose off his rocker, perhaps from one too many concussions or a little too much huffing the paint can? Or, more likely, maybe a bit too much wallowing in his on ego and a failure to realize that his own subjective vision of reality is distorted by the bias that arises from a need for a BLACK AND WHITE world? (if anyone confirms my claim that conservatives tend to see the world in dichotomies, that is, in BLACK AND WHITE, it's YOU ToM)

[GamerGal]

Look at the GOP and the 14th. They want it rewritten so it says "Only applies if you are white, all others will be persecuted"

Also, KKK, Neo Nazis, every other racist group in America? Guess what, none of them voted for Obama. Also, Civil Rights Split where the parties formed what they are today. Before you had liberals and conservatives in both parties. In fact the Democrats had more conservatives then the Republicans, including Strom and Reagan. But the Civil Rights Split happens and the parties are split between the Liberal Dems who believe blacks are human and the conservative Republicans who scream N*ggers are animals! Reagan himself said giving blacks the right to vote was humiliating to white people.

Also, who leads the GOP? Steele? Guy under investigation for hiding the true deficit his party is in? Or Rush? Beck? Who leads them and what platform do they have besides Obama is black? Hell Rand Paul even stated if places don't want blacks they shouldn't be forced to have them. And Palin told her father she couldn't stand Hawaii because there were too many minorities.


So if every politician is a liar, who would you rather have lie? The one who wants blacks third class animals or the ones who lie about not taxing the top 1% of the top 1%?

[Becks]

With such diversity, there will be so many diametrically opposed world views that you are bound to have such extremism.

Thanks, and that's what I assumed pretty much summed it up.

When comparing to Canada, the US (which I have traveled extensively) seems to have the same level of diversity but the US has far less political options which are almost completely opposing.

Now don't take this the wrong way because in certain issues it has been favourable, but I think it also has to do with many Americans being extreme in their attitudes. It's just a result of the country's evolution and history. For example, I met a couple at a Canada Day celebration who were from Pennsylvania and they assumed that Canada Day was our celebration for independence from the British. When I explained what it actually meant and that our history is rather less-bloody compared to the Americans they were shocked and confused.

[medicvet]

I think this may be due at least in part to the fact that we do only have two viable parties. I think that we have three branches of govt. for a reason, and we should have three parties (at least!) for the same reason..if it takes some finangling to get it started, then so be it.

Unfortunately, the far extreme right has polarized so many issues and told so many outright falsehoods to work on "fear and stagnation" instead of "hope and change" that I don't think that a third party option is going to happen any time in the near future.

[medicvet]

Its because of the civil war & civil unrest thats coming. The administration is using subtle tactics to promote this because they want it to happen before the end of 2010.

I think the civil war will be caused by the teabaggers or those more to the right even of them. And if they wear the grey, well, if it comes down to standing up to defend our freedoms once again, I will do it, and this fat ass ole broad will don the blue.

[Goldmoon]

A prime example.

[MaximumPain]

A prime example.

Of your religious delusions.

[Ningishiddza]

Without calling anyone out on it, I just want to say that I'm frightened sometimes by how people lately seem to be swinging to political extremes. I've noticed it's mostly Americans (but not most Americans) on AO that come across this way and I've been trying to figure out what the cause of it is.

Then you'll have to get in line behind everyone else trying to figure it out.

Seriously, you're not the only one who has noticed. A number of sociologists have commented on it and even though numerous surveys have been conducted and studied, no one fully understands the cause.

Suffice to say that polarization is everywhere; in the home; in the work-place; at school and university.

Up through about 1965 or so, people held frank discussions about politics, religion, society, philosophy, history, government etc at the dinner table, in the living room, around the water-cooler, during coffee and lunch breaks, while out with friends and so forth.

That isn't even possible now. Any attempt at discussion immediately degenerates into personal attacks, or in the case of the left, personal attacks and a complete shouting down and branding as a Nazi, Stalinist, Fascist, racists or worse.

At university I noticed people had a very difficult time comprehending that someone (like me) could be an ultra-conservative AND an atheist AND a Platonic republican (that really wierds people out).

A lot of it comes from the education system, especially elementary schools. The reason kids are stupid is because there's no learning taking place; it's all political and social indoctrination. They have a class on why Kathy has two mommies and why Johnny's daddy always has his hands down his other daddy's pants, and another class on how wonderful the UN is, and the white guilt class (or the "people owe you" class -- depending on your skin color) and the "you should have health care and your own home and it should be Free" class, and then science is mostly "we caused the hole in the Ozone layer" and "we're causing our globe to warm."

I don't think there's any turning back, not without a good blood-letting.

[MaximumPain]

That isn't even possible now. Any attempt at discussion immediately degenerates into personal attacks, or in the case of the left, personal attacks and a complete shouting down and branding as a Nazi, Stalinist, Fascist, racists or worse.

You just did it your self Ning! Or have you forgotten what they are accusing Obama of these days? I have to admit it started with Bush being called a Nazi and caught on so its now the standard.

At university I noticed people had a very difficult time comprehending that someone (like me) could be an ultra-conservative AND an atheist AND a Platonic republican (that really wierds people out).

Its interesting that most of the reasonable conservatives I know fit that mold. If it were not for the religious nuts wanting to police the bed room Id be much more supportive of the conservatives.

A lot of it comes from the education system, especially elementary schools. The reason kids are stupid is because there's no learning taking place; it's all political and social indoctrination. They have a class on why Kathy has two mommies and why Johnny's daddy always has his hands down his other daddy's pants, and another class on how wonderful the UN is, and the white guilt class (or the "people owe you" class -- depending on your skin color) and the "you should have health care and your own home and it should be Free" class, and then science is mostly "we caused the hole in the Ozone layer" and "we're causing our globe to warm."

Your statement here is a total exaggeration at least in my area.

A lot of that is local and goes both ways as well. There are plenty of conservatives indoctrinating their children in the same way either at home or in religious private schools most of it in fact comes directly from the parents. Also so far in the public school my kids goes to there as been very little of the kind of propaganda you speak of, what he has learned of that stuff has been taught to him by me.

[JenaS62]

At university I noticed people had a very difficult time comprehending that someone (like me) could be an ultra-conservative AND an atheist AND a Platonic republican (that really wierds people out).

I am pretty much the same. I am far from religious and none of my beliefs come from the bible, however, that does not stop certain posters (everyone knows who they are so I won't name names) from accusing me of being a religious nut or a bible thumper simply for disagreeing with the policies of Obama. They also continually hold up Bush whenever there is criticism of Obama as if I embraced George Bush - again because if you disagree with the Obama policies, you must be a staunch republican cheerleader for Bush.

[medicvet]

Will someone please tell me of one solitary example of any class anywhere in the US teaching how wonderful the UN is? How about just one example of any class anywhere in the US teaching that it is okay for a man to put his hand under another man's pants?

I don't want anecdotes, I want specifics. put up or shut up, at least where that nonsense is concerned.

[Goldmoon]

The problem is, the American people are turning on each other rather than turning against the Government.

[clang]

The problem is, the American people are turning on each other rather than turning against the Government.

Well said Goldmoon. The Obama lovers are so delusional
and I can only attribute it to their fantastic education in our
public schools. One day their eyes will be opened, or maybe it will be too late by then.

[Cartesiantheater]

The problem is, the American people are turning on each other rather than turning against the Government.

Well said Goldmoon. The Obama lovers are so delusional
and I can only attribute it to their fantastic education in our
public schools. One day their eyes will be opened, or maybe it will be too late by then.

Well said? What he said was the EXACT American conservative line.

[MaximumPain]

Well said Goldmoon. The Obama lovers are so delusional
and I can only attribute it to their fantastic education in our
public schools. One day their eyes will be opened, or maybe it will be too late by then.

Ahh someone who believes in the Anti Christ telling others they are delusional good show. Oh and I don't love Obama I just hate the current crop of conservatives much more so I have no choice but to support the lesser of two evils.

[MaximumPain]

Its funny as I sit here and try to think in a more neutral manner and consider some of the better points against the left and Obama and give them a real look over... then I see a response like Clangs and it throws me hard left. I think to my self that someone that brainwashed or who will willingly sling bullshit for their side must be opposed, that what they stand for must be bad.

Im sure I have the same effect on him. I dont see anyway for us to agree when he has an all out completely negative opinion of someone who I supported and who SHOULD be supporting policy's I want to see (Obamas hit and miss on that one from my point of view). Thing is that with Bush while I hated a lot about him and was opposed to most of what he was doing I didn't completely hate him and he did some things that at the time seemed like things I could support. I never said he wasn't my president, never thought of him as the anti-christ, and thought that his similarities with Hitler were over blown and an insult to the real victims of WW2.

Those of you who continue to compare Obama to Hitler or call him a Marxist are really only showing your own ignorance to what Hitler did and to what being a Marxist really means.

[clang]

Its funny as I sit here and try to think in a more neutral manner and consider some of the better points against the left and Obama and give them a real look over... then I see a response like Clangs and it throws me hard left. I think to my self that someone that brainwashed or who will willingly sling bullshit for their side must be opposed, that what they stand for must be bad.

Im sure I have the same effect on him. I dont see anyway for us to agree when he has an all out completely negative opinion of someone who I supported and who SHOULD be supporting policy's I want to see (Obamas hit and miss on that one from my point of view). Thing is that with Bush while I hated a lot about him and was opposed to most of what he was doing I didn't completely hate him and he did some things that at the time seemed like things I could support. I never said he wasn't my president, never thought of him as the anti-christ, and thought that his similarities with Hitler were over blown and an insult to the real victims of WW2.

Those of you who continue to compare Obama to Hitler or call him a Marxist are really only showing your own ignorance to what Hitler did and to what being a Marxist really means.

Max, I thought we were buds again. Just because Obama
is the worst president in history doesn't mean you have to
hate me and go hard left.
Now if you will excuse me, I'm going to contemplate where I went wrong and how I can get on your good side again.

[MaximumPain]

Max, I thought we were buds again. Just because Obama
is the worst president in history doesn't mean you have to
hate me and go hard left.
Now if you will excuse me, I'm going to contemplate where I went wrong and how I can get on your good side again.

Mostly its just the repeating of the right wing pundits I hear on the radio and TV that pisses me off because a lot of it is lies and exaggerations.

The Obama lovers are so delusional
and I can only attribute it to their fantastic education in our
public schools. One day their eyes will be opened, or maybe it will be too late by then.

Here you are implying that anyone who disagrees with you in a post is an Obama lover and delusional (kind of like I do with religion). When in actuality most of the lefties I know expected a lot more out of Obama but instead got what looks like a holding of the corporate line (something you righties should be in favor of??!!).

Also the tired old idea that our educational system is flawed when I have seen it produce several intelligence members of society who are completing or have completed college and are entering the workforce. Of course I do live in one of the more liberal states in the Union where we invest heavily in public education (so there should be more of the liberal brainwashing you seem to think is going on) and over the years have gotten excellent results. Many of the states that lean right tend to underfund education and try to push utter crap into the curriculum like creationism.

Those are the things that turn me away from the right. I could be down with some conservative fiscal policy but I haven't seen a real fiscal conservative in my life time and I doubt I ever will. They spend just like the dems only its on wars or kickbacks to their corporate buddies.