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Thread: 50 Billion stimulus for infrastructure again?

  1. #26
    Iam puppy, hear me yap. Contributor lycanox's Avatar
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    Actually electricity is part of infrastructure.
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  2. #27
    ### of all Things Nuclear Ningishiddza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JenaS62 View Post
    Didn't we already do this? Wasn't infrastructure or what was fondly referred to as the creation of "shovel ready" jobs part of the last 800 gazillion stimulus money??? I seem to recall heated debates on this board about how dare anyone question the creation of jobs and that our infrastructure was in dire need of updating. So what happened to the last infracture update and all of those shovel ready jobs?
    There were "heated debates" with the economically ignorant. No jobs were created nor were any jobs intended to be created.

    If you recall, the gasoline tax was intended to fund Interstates and US Routes, but the Democrats politely informed the States that the pseudo-federal government would no longer fund highway projects. The States would be solely responsible for the construction and maintenance of the Interstates and US Routes (except the Democrats conveniently forgot to cancel the gasoline tax and instead decided to use it for other fun things).

    So for the last 40 years the States have been burdened with the cost of maintaining the Interstates and US Routes. Occasionally for new construction, a Democrat or Republican will attach an earmark to a critical bill to fund the cost of the "Bridge to Nowhere," the "Highway to Nowhere," the "Exit Ramp to Nowhere," the Bridge in the Middle of Nowhere." and the "Highway in the Middle of Nowhere that Nobody Uses" and other things.

    In a recession, the Cities, Counties and States lose money due to the loss of payroll taxes. That is compounded for some Cities, Counties and States who double tax (just like your employer matches your Social Security Tax some Cities, Counties and States have levied matching contributions for payroll taxes on employers so that what you pay in taxes your employer pays too).

    In addition to the loss of payroll tax revenues, the Cities, Counties and States lose sales tax revenues.

    On top of huge losses in revenues, the Cities, Counties and States are also paying out massive amounts of money for social welfare benefits like unemployment, medicaid, food stamps and other programs.

    As a result, the Cities, Counties and States either do not award construction contracts for Interstate/US Route maintenance as well local road maintenance and construction, and they also cancel or halt existing contracts.

    What the stimulus did was help those governments offset loses and allow the awarding of contracts that were already planned and to continue those projects that were already underway.

    The Truth is that existing jobs were maintained, not created.

    Part of the Hopey Changey Obama scam is claiming that someone, like a construction worker, who was laid off and then called back to work is counted as "a newly created job" when in fact no new job was created.

    Because of the severity of the recession to this point, the Cities, Counties and States have lost even more money, and are being forced to halt or cancel the awarding of construction/maintenance contracts, and this new "stimulus" is intended to offset that.

    Again the end result will be that no new jobs are created, rather existing jobs will be kept, and perhaps those construction workers who were laid off will be called back to work for at least a few weeks.

    A good example of the lies is the current maintenance on US 27/US 127 a few blocks away from me. That project was planned 3 years ago and is part of an ongoing maintenance plan for the last 8 years, so no jobs have been created in spite of the Hopey Change sign that proclaims to motorists using the route that the project is funded by the "stimulus."

    Anyway, the $50 Billion stimulus will do nothing and the unemployment rate will still be 9+% for the remainder of the year and all of next year.
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  3. #28
    Life is good Contributor Tired Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch View Post
    I got nothing against the folks that fill pot holes. But the thing is , those people already exist and the do a good enough job by my standards. IF were gonna use our tax dollars to stimulate the economy I wanna see something worth while new long lasting and useful. When their were no highways and the dust bowl raged the CCC and the highway system were GREAT ideas.

    But roads are built now and we have new problems other than the dust bowl.

    We could use some REAL infrastructure building rather than some BS road work... which I suspect is more about pork and slush and less about economic jump starting.

    Freeing our electric needs would serve us all.

    Giving all US citizens free internet access would serve us all.

    Hiring new guys to maintain the roads and build the Nafta super highway?!?!

    Nooo... That serves very special interest (CFR /NAU/ PNAC)
    Solar and wind power with no means of transmission is a dust bowl ! Our current electric grid is out dated and has failed and will fail again. Wind farms will have to be built away from people. Solar farms could be built near people using today's electric grids....until they fail again. What part of maintenance is so hard to understand ?

    And there you go again using the free word. I didn't want to have to say it but you leave me no choice. NOTHING IS FREE ! What's wrong Anarch, your dial up is to slow for you? OK now you got me trying to be a smartass. If itís porn your worried about I know a few good sites that load fast. AND.......they are free ! OK wait a minute. NOTHING IS FREE!!!!!!

    And NAFTA ? OK I have a problem with the NAFTA highway but that's another thread. What we have here is the government asking for more money when they haven't spent the money they already took that we don't have to begin with. So NO you don't get free ( grrrr ) internet. And they need to stop spending money on things we don't need.
    Jena I couldn't find your thread but I remember Lyx seem to think spending money on a machine that could tell jokes or something like that was a good thing.

    Free internet is pork.....
    2012 is gone but Armageddon is always just around the corner .

  4. #29
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    Net Zero used to be free.

    I'm just saying that their are better ways to jump start the economy rather than pouring it into the roads...but Ning brings up a good point and one that I think is most accurate.
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  5. #30
    Life is good Contributor Tired Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch View Post
    Net Zero used to be free.

    I'm just saying that their are better ways to jump start the economy rather than pouring it into the roads...but Ning brings up a good point and one that I think is most accurate.
    My daughter had net zero. What was it, five hours a month free ?Your right Ning brings up a much better point than Net Zero. We have been lied to.
    2012 is gone but Armageddon is always just around the corner .

  6. #31
    ראה Contributor Raptor Witness's Avatar
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    If they were smart, they would begin constructing 50' sea walls around all the major cities on every U.S. coastline. But I guess it's a little too late for that. The tide is already rolling in, and will smash to pieces every attempt to shore up the state of confusion.

    And I raised my right hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, that there should be no more delay, because the land and those who dwell in it are unrepentant.




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  7. #32
    Survivalist! Freddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningishiddza View Post
    There were "heated debates" with the economically ignorant. No jobs were created nor were any jobs intended to be created.

    If you recall, the gasoline tax was intended to fund Interstates and US Routes, but the Democrats politely informed the States that the pseudo-federal government would no longer fund highway projects. The States would be solely responsible for the construction and maintenance of the Interstates and US Routes (except the Democrats conveniently forgot to cancel the gasoline tax and instead decided to use it for other fun things).

    So for the last 40 years the States have been burdened with the cost of maintaining the Interstates and US Routes. Occasionally for new construction, a Democrat or Republican will attach an earmark to a critical bill to fund the cost of the "Bridge to Nowhere," the "Highway to Nowhere," the "Exit Ramp to Nowhere," the Bridge in the Middle of Nowhere." and the "Highway in the Middle of Nowhere that Nobody Uses" and other things.

    In a recession, the Cities, Counties and States lose money due to the loss of payroll taxes. That is compounded for some Cities, Counties and States who double tax (just like your employer matches your Social Security Tax some Cities, Counties and States have levied matching contributions for payroll taxes on employers so that what you pay in taxes your employer pays too).

    In addition to the loss of payroll tax revenues, the Cities, Counties and States lose sales tax revenues.

    On top of huge losses in revenues, the Cities, Counties and States are also paying out massive amounts of money for social welfare benefits like unemployment, medicaid, food stamps and other programs.

    As a result, the Cities, Counties and States either do not award construction contracts for Interstate/US Route maintenance as well local road maintenance and construction, and they also cancel or halt existing contracts.

    What the stimulus did was help those governments offset loses and allow the awarding of contracts that were already planned and to continue those projects that were already underway.

    The Truth is that existing jobs were maintained, not created.

    Part of the Hopey Changey Obama scam is claiming that someone, like a construction worker, who was laid off and then called back to work is counted as "a newly created job" when in fact no new job was created.

    Because of the severity of the recession to this point, the Cities, Counties and States have lost even more money, and are being forced to halt or cancel the awarding of construction/maintenance contracts, and this new "stimulus" is intended to offset that.

    Again the end result will be that no new jobs are created, rather existing jobs will be kept, and perhaps those construction workers who were laid off will be called back to work for at least a few weeks.

    A good example of the lies is the current maintenance on US 27/US 127 a few blocks away from me. That project was planned 3 years ago and is part of an ongoing maintenance plan for the last 8 years, so no jobs have been created in spite of the Hopey Change sign that proclaims to motorists using the route that the project is funded by the "stimulus."

    Anyway, the $50 Billion stimulus will do nothing and the unemployment rate will still be 9+% for the remainder of the year and all of next year.
    Ning, what about federal highway funds distributed to the states? Each year the feds collect billions in federal gasoline, tire, and truck taxes and distribute the funds to the states using a formula where some states receive more than the taxes collected and some states receive less than taxes collected within their state. Not fair for Texas. See page 4 of link.

    http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...j5jqKilMhH3Aig
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  8. #33
    Survivalist! Abyssal_Worm's Avatar
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    $50 billion for the rebuilding of our nation's infrastructure sounds great...right up until the point when the measure has to go through house and senate committees, have all kind of "special" additions tacked on, and then be voted upon by the legislature. In short...$50 billion would easily blossom into $200+ BILLION before it ever had a chance of being voted upon. And no, this has nothing to do with the Democrats being in power. A Republican held Congress would be no different. Its just how American politics operate.
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  9. #34
    GEAUX SAINTS! Contributor pico's Avatar
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    Not to side step the issue of the thread, but didn't Obama give the Mexicans $1 Billion is deep water drilling money to be used in the Gulf of Mexico? The government is dolling out money to foreign nations to do work companies in the US are told they cannot perform. What is wrong with this picture?
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  10. #35
    AO Feminazi GamerGal's Avatar
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    And Bush spent TRILLIONS on rebuilding Iraq, a nation he invaded so he could prove he had a bigger dick then daddy. So, Obama 1billion to Mexico to prevent another oil leak in Gulf. Bush bankrupts America so he can prove how big his dick is.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
    Ning, what about federal highway funds distributed to the states? Each year the feds collect billions in federal gasoline, tire, and truck taxes and distribute the funds to the states using a formula where some states receive more than the taxes collected and some states receive less than taxes collected within their state. Not fair for Texas. See page 4 of link.

    http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...j5jqKilMhH3Aig

    They also hold states over the barrel to get those funds. It is not automatic but only upon states compliance with federal whims. Coercion.

    If a state does not comply with the requests from the fed then the fed with holds those highway funds, For example Lousyanna used have a drinking age of 19. The fed put a stop to that by with holding highway funds.

    You pay the taxes but you do not benefit at all if you do not bow to the bureaucratic tyranny.
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  12. #37
    Survivalist! MaximumPain's Avatar
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    Umm you guys do know that infrastructure is part of making a country conducive to business right?
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GamerGal View Post
    And Bush spent TRILLIONS on rebuilding Iraq, a nation he invaded so he could prove he had a bigger dick then daddy. So, Obama 1billion to Mexico to prevent another oil leak in Gulf. Bush bankrupts America so he can prove how big his dick is.


    .... Nope thats not doing it today. You need to refine your shtick a bit GG because your off on the subtle details.

    Bush did not spend trillions on rebuilding Iraq to prove he had a bigger dick then daddy.

    Bush spent hundreds of trillions on colonizing Iraq in the name of the almighty United States of America because daddy stuck is dick in his ass and told him he wasn't gonna pull it out until the mission was accomplished.

    And Bush did not bankrupt america because you can't bankrupt fiat currency.

    If you don't know what your nations currency is backed by (In other words what gives your dollar value compared to what gives pesos,yen,etc their values) should you really consider yourself politically educated?
    Jim Crow America relegated Blacks to the back of buses. Israel wants Arabs excluded from the bus entirely.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumPain View Post
    Umm you guys do know that infrastructure is part of making a country conducive to business right?


    Truckers can drive on dirt but not if diesel is at 6 bucks a gallon in Houston.

    No trucks , no deliveries , no business.

    The infrastructure is just fine... and I still think Ning hit the nail on the head the best.
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    AO Feminazi GamerGal's Avatar
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    Oh yeah I see semis on dirt roads all the time! Oh wait, dirt roads are part of infrestructure. More, realistic, would be saying Semis can drive through people's backyards/thick woods. Oh wait, they can't, they need roads, dirt/brick/paved, but need roads.


    Oh, and you do know Diesel at 6 a gallon is because Republicans are greedy not because Obama is a black man right? If they charged half that they would only make 50billion PROFIT instead of 100billion PROFIT but you know, 6 private jets, oversears mansions, foreign cars, and Republican Senators don't come cheap.
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  16. #41
    GEAUX SAINTS! Contributor pico's Avatar
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    My point, GG, is that it is too dangerous for US companies to drill (in Obama's eyes), but it is okay to support Mexican companies in their offshore endeavors. Sounds a bit bullshit to me.

    Mexican officials are being killed daily by drug cartels, but they have the best interest of the US Gulf Coast in mind when allowing corporations to drill in the gulf. BULLSHIT!
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  17. #42
    Survivalist! MaximumPain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch View Post
    Truckers can drive on dirt but not if diesel is at 6 bucks a gallon in Houston.

    No trucks , no deliveries , no business.
    You ever tried to drive on a muddy road after hundreds or even thousands of trucks have driven on it? That anarchistic world view sure looks great on paper but not so much in the real world.
    Would you set up your business in a place with crappy roads and a failing electrical grid? If we don't maintain our infrastructure businesses will just go someplace that does.

    The infrastructure is just fine... and I still think Ning hit the nail on the head the best.
    Tell that to the Minnesota family's that lost loved ones in the 35W bridge collapse. That event also disrupted commuter traffic for over a year around here.

    But Gamer Girl is right. Its MUCH more important to destroy Iraqs infrastructure so we can pay Halliburton to fix it.
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  18. #43
    AO Feminazi GamerGal's Avatar
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    But people in Minnesota deserved it! They voted for Obama after the bridge collapsed so totally deserved it. Who cares about repairing other bridges? Who cares about a road in such terrible shape that after a rainstorm it washes away and a mini van coming home from the soccer game wrecks killing every one? We need more dead brown people in Iraq and more trillions for Halliburton.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumPain View Post
    You ever tried to drive on a muddy road after hundreds ......

    You missed the point. You missed it by a mile.

    Are you GGs' sock? Is that why you have The Number One as your avatar? I mean you seem a bit old to be into cartoons to me but I know it takes all kinds.
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  20. #45
    Survivalist! MaximumPain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch View Post
    You missed the point. You missed it by a mile.
    Your missing the point by light years. You seem to think we can have all this stuff for free and that things will just work themselves out based on greed.

    When you move out of moms basement you may learn a few things like making money takes investment and infrastructure.

    Are you GGs' sock?
    Wow you sure have a hard on for her dont you?

    Is that why you have The Number One as your avatar? I mean you seem a bit old to be into cartoons to me but I know it takes all kinds.
    You never cease to find new ways to show your level of ignorance do you? Afro Samurai is hardly a kids cartoon I wouldn't even show it to a young child.
    Last edited by MaximumPain; Sep 13th, 2010 at 5:49 PM.
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    Oh neat look at at that, You took what I said and said the same exact thing back to me adding your own neat little twist. How clever of you. Good Job MP! Good job.

    Why don't you further that clever mind of yours with some classes from MIT?

    http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm

    It's free.

    Not free as in you don't have to work for it because the work you invest will determine what you get out of it, no it is free in the sense that you won't be charged.

    Kinda like the enterprising individuals that have made strides to go green with solar or micro hydro or what have you. First they invested effort (Money equals effort too fool) and then upon completion they get unlimited electricity.

    You see MP, the best things in life are free, but if you leave it to the birds and the bees you'll never be able to take full advantage of all the free shit life has to offer.



    As for my living accommodations and my understanding of investment and infrastructure, I can say this:

    NING is absolutely correct. This is not a bill to create new jobs and new infrastructure. This is a bill to maintain the current jobs and current infrastructure. Nothing more. The new job bullshit will be no different from all those jobs that got created by census workers who were fired and hired multiple times in a week so that the government could say they gave out more jobs when in reality they were just dicking with the people.
    Jim Crow America relegated Blacks to the back of buses. Israel wants Arabs excluded from the bus entirely.

  22. #47
    Survivalist! MaximumPain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch View Post
    Oh neat look at at that, You took what I said and said the same exact thing back to me adding your own neat little twist. How clever of you. Good Job MP! Good job.
    It was no problem you didn't really say much.

    Why don't you further that clever mind of yours with some classes from MIT?

    http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm

    It's free.
    Already have a degree but that sounds like fun. The Ancient city sounds fascinating.

    Not free as in you don't have to work for it because the work you invest will determine what you get out of it, no it is free in the sense that you won't be charged.
    School done right is a lot of work beyond the financial considerations.

    Kinda like the enterprising individuals that have made strides to go green with solar or micro hydro or what have you. First they invested effort (Money equals effort too fool) and then upon completion they get unlimited electricity.
    Good for them I wish we would see more stuff like that.

    You see MP, the best things in life are free, but if you leave it to the birds and the bees you'll never be able to take full advantage of all the free shit life has to offer.
    Nothing in life is free at a minimum it costs time, usually it costs hard work, and sometimes you have to use currency.


    As for my living accommodations and my understanding of investment and infrastructure, I can say this:
    Dude of course you dont live in your moms basement (at least I dont really think that)

    NING is absolutely correct. This is not a bill to create new jobs and new infrastructure. This is a bill to maintain the current jobs and current infrastructure. Nothing more. The new job bullshit will be no different from all those jobs that got created by census workers who were fired and hired multiple times in a week so that the government could say they gave out more jobs when in reality they were just dicking with the people.
    I do understand your cynicism because I am feeling some myself but you take it to far. In truth there is a bit of both sides in the actions of all politicians right and left. We really need a third party hell a forth and fifth as well. Even if we did get that the corps and foreign nations would just corrupt them as well. Its still better than anarchy though by light years.
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    My political dreams aside, my cynicism stems from experiences.

    No multiple party system can fix our broken nation. And our nation is broken. It broke because many people allowed themselves to forget what the constitution and the bill of rights are and how they affect us as citizens in our everyday lives.

    And because so few can remember their rights the government has no problem removing them from the masses in the name of security. Military and/or economic.
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  24. #49
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    I'm waiting joyously for the day China wins the war it fights with America.
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    GEAUX SAINTS! Contributor pico's Avatar
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    JR... if the war is economics based, the chinese might already be winning. The US is in piss poor shape.
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