If God is ALL POWERFUL why did he NEED to sacrifice Jesus in order to be able to forgive us our sins, etc?

[Cartesiantheater]

I haven't seen a thread on this, so thought I'd see what the Christians say about it.



You believe God is all powerful. That means he can do ANYTHING. So why was he forced to sacrifice Jesus in order to redeem mankind? If he can do ANYTHING, then that means he could have redeemed mankind just by snapping his fingers. Or by sacrificing a goat. Or by beating Super Mario World. Whatever he wanted.

So why the need for brutal murder? Is it just to satisfy his rage at our folly? Then why was he forced to take that rage out on his own son? Or, him being all powerful, why didn't he just cause his rage to magically disappear? Same thing with "holiness" arguments. Why didn't he just use his all powerful might to simply erase unholiness without having to kill his son? Why the NEED to kill Jesus?


Et cetera.


Give me a good theological explanation for all this that does not ignore the fact that an all powerful god by definition is not REQUIRED to do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. Thanks.

[custompainter]

HMMM a mod trolling the religious section. Lets see what he catches.

[Tsunami]

I haven't seen a thread on this, so thought I'd see what the Christians say about it.



You believe God is all powerful. That means he can do ANYTHING. So why was he forced to sacrifice Jesus in order to redeem mankind? If he can do ANYTHING, then that means he could have redeemed mankind just by snapping his fingers. Or by sacrificing a goat. Or by beating Super Mario World. Whatever he wanted.

So why the need for brutal murder? Is it just to satisfy his rage at our folly? Then why was he forced to take that rage out on his own son? Or, him being all powerful, why didn't he just cause his rage to magically disappear? Same thing with "holiness" arguments. Why didn't he just use his all powerful might to simply erase unholiness without having to kill his son? Why the NEED to kill Jesus?


Et cetera.


Give me a good theological explanation for all this that does not ignore the fact that an all powerful god by definition is not REQUIRED to do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. Thanks.

Or, is God so powerful that He can create a stone so heavy, that God cannot lift it?

[Cartesiantheater]

Or, is God so powerful that He can create a stone so heavy, that God cannot lift it?

That's a different kind of question though. It's supposing some logical impossibility.


My question does not have to be interpreted of that sort. It's asking what the reason was for the sacrifice of Christ, if the reader prefers. Clearly God was not LITERALLY compelled to use Christ to save us. He is all powerful, so there is no possibility of him being forced into it.

Which takes the question to, "then why that particular choice?" Because if he is all powerful, then it HAD to have been some sort of PREFERENCE, not a necessity.



Or you could just assume that God has some limits to his awesome power/ problem solved.

[Beatnik Bob]

You're assuming that jesus's death ended sin/made sin obsolete. This is Christian theology, but it is simply not realistic.

So reality aside....

It isn't God saving the world with a messiah. Jesus changed nothing. It's the "act" of sending a messiah that is noteworthy.
And it no doubt follows in the tradition of the Hebrew midrash.

[digitalautumn]

I haven't seen a thread on this, so thought I'd see what the Christians say about it.



You believe God is all powerful. That means he can do ANYTHING. So why was he forced to sacrifice Jesus in order to redeem mankind? If he can do ANYTHING, then that means he could have redeemed mankind just by snapping his fingers. Or by sacrificing a goat. Or by beating Super Mario World. Whatever he wanted.

So why the need for brutal murder? Is it just to satisfy his rage at our folly? Then why was he forced to take that rage out on his own son? Or, him being all powerful, why didn't he just cause his rage to magically disappear? Same thing with "holiness" arguments. Why didn't he just use his all powerful might to simply erase unholiness without having to kill his son? Why the NEED to kill Jesus?


Et cetera.


Give me a good theological explanation for all this that does not ignore the fact that an all powerful god by definition is not REQUIRED to do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. Thanks.

Why are Atheist, non-believers etc always wanting Christians to "prove" or "explain" things? and always questioning God? If you do not believe then so be it.. but why question something you have no faith in? For example I do not believe in reincarnation..its my choice but I don't sit and ponder questions to people who do believe in reincarnation and have them "prove" their belief to me..IMO its pointless cause neither side is willing to meet halfway.. im just saying..

[Cartesiantheater]

You're assuming that jesus's death ended sin/made sin obsolete. This is Christian theology, but it is simply not realistic.

So reality aside....

It isn't God saving the world with a messiah. Jesus changed nothing. It's the "act" of sending a messiah that is noteworthy.
And it no doubt follows in the tradition of the Hebrew midrash.

So why the preference to send a messiah? Because God Almighty clearly does not have to do that to save mankind or establish his kingdom.

Why are Atheist, non-believers etc always wanting Christians to "prove" or "explain" things? and always questioning God? If you do not believe then so be it.. but why question something you have no faith in? For example I do not believe in reincarnation..its my choice but I don't sit and ponder questions to people who do believe in reincarnation and have them "prove" their belief to me..IMO its pointless cause neither side is willing to meet halfway.. im just saying..

Causing people to critically and carefully examine the things they believe to be true only ultimately improves the speed with which humanity grows.

It was guys like Martin Luther who critically examined the dogma of his day that helped push Christianity from barbaric religion similar to what Islam is now in many places in the world to a very secular and amiable one. Guys like Kepler who push humanity to be able to look at scripture in an abstract rather than fundamental way, and to change their religious perspective to a more abstract one (whereas prior to Kepler the Earth was the center of the universe with which God focused on, modern Christianity holds that God is a much bigger being who created much more- so much that it boggles the mind- and that planet earth as just one of millions of other planets God created has gone from ridiculously heretic to a reflection of the vastness of creation).

There are certainly GROWING PAINS associated with this type of thing, but every time we as a species challenge ourselves to think about our world in a new way, our collective intellectual capacity grows.




Who is to say that by doing this, atheists, non-believers, philosophers, whatever, aren't actually hastening the development of the eventual true Companion of the Ultimate Being?

[debonnaire]

I haven't seen a thread on this, so thought I'd see what the Christians say about it.



You believe God is all powerful. That means he can do ANYTHING. So why was he forced to sacrifice Jesus in order to redeem mankind? If he can do ANYTHING, then that means he could have redeemed mankind just by snapping his fingers. Or by sacrificing a goat. Or by beating Super Mario World. Whatever he wanted.

So why the need for brutal murder? Is it just to satisfy his rage at our folly? Then why was he forced to take that rage out on his own son? Or, him being all powerful, why didn't he just cause his rage to magically disappear? Same thing with "holiness" arguments. Why didn't he just use his all powerful might to simply erase unholiness without having to kill his son? Why the NEED to kill Jesus?


Et cetera.


Give me a good theological explanation for all this that does not ignore the fact that an all powerful god by definition is not REQUIRED to do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. Thanks.

Good topic.
Firstly the Father did not force the Son to come . The Son came willingly to do His will.
Secondly , if Jesus would not have come and died , how much would that have been convincing ? How much mankind could know about God’s love and how far she is from Him ?
It is not about forgiveness only, it is also about redemption , if a man receives forgiveness , this is nice to have his past debts paid , but how can he be free from the power of sin & overcome his farther temptations if he is not been given (by the Holy Spirit of grace and truth) to be an overcomer ?
It has to be said that man looks at the surface, but God looks at the heart , at the depth of things , and He went at the very depth of things when willingly Jesus gave His life for the forgiveness and redemption and santification.
(There are many reasons why Jesus had to become flesh and endure all things and die , as by that he also set an example).
Finally just as the habit of sin has made sinners (who mostly by nature are not even convinced they are sinners), holiness is not obtained by a decree of God’s sovereign will. Jesus participated to flesh and blood so that those who believed in the message « Christ pierced » can identify with the depth of the problem and the depth and greatness of the solution. Acess to holiness and the righteous nature of Christ (the perfect man , the Holy one of God) is accessible , but man is engaged in what has been accomplished on his behalf by this another man. A shortcut (with man not engaged) would not make sense ...

[Traveler]

I haven't seen a thread on this, so thought I'd see what the Christians say about it.



You believe God is all powerful. That means he can do ANYTHING. So why was he forced to sacrifice Jesus in order to redeem mankind? If he can do ANYTHING, then that means he could have redeemed mankind just by snapping his fingers. Or by sacrificing a goat. Or by beating Super Mario World. Whatever he wanted.

So why the need for brutal murder? Is it just to satisfy his rage at our folly? Then why was he forced to take that rage out on his own son? Or, him being all powerful, why didn't he just cause his rage to magically disappear? Same thing with "holiness" arguments. Why didn't he just use his all powerful might to simply erase unholiness without having to kill his son? Why the NEED to kill Jesus?


Et cetera.


Give me a good theological explanation for all this that does not ignore the fact that an all powerful god by definition is not REQUIRED to do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. Thanks.

Actually some of the very first posts I made here years ago addressed this very issue.

It is dealing with the law not ability. How exactly is God going to send the devil to the lake of fire for his sins and not man when he is just as sinful.

The law applies to all or it is not a just law is it. The punishment for breaking the law has to be applied equally to all creation. Salvation also applies to the devil as well but pride will not allow him to accept it will it. But Christ taking our punishment for us, that fulfils the law as the sentence gets paid even if by another.

[Beatnik Bob]

So why the preference to send a messiah?

The concept of a messiah started with the "ages."

For each age (2100/2200 years) there is a different messiah whose actions define the age. Moses, was one. Interestingly, Moses lived in the age of Ares...while Jesus ushered in "Pisces" (and jesus is often symbolized by a "fish," while Moses's age is known for the shofar--ram's horn).
Going by this trend, the new age does not begin until the next messiah comes to usher it in. The messiah is intrinsically intertwined with time, and Godliness, not just randomly coming to get things done. The Earth and universe go through various forms of evolution (from stars forming to continents shifting), these evolutions require time--why would the evolution of human spirituality be the exception?
It's about human experience, not God fixing things.

Just look at the way the human body is set up. Is it designed to bypass space and time and "get things done" or is it designed to have experience? The very fact that time and space exist suggest that experience is pretty important.

Because God Almighty clearly does not have to do that to save mankind or establish his kingdom.

What's more important, the destination or the journey? If the destination was of primary importance, why does experience exist?

Also, in what way does humanity need to be saved? Does eliminating sin (theoretically) eliminate the act of sinning or eliminate the existence of bad?
How would this "saving" process occur? Humans would no longer be inclined to hurt eachother? Or they would be incapable?


Anyway, interesting thread.

[johnBeeone]

Because for God so love the World etc...^_^ but don't forget god cannot lie.....


Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day. The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; when it comes, the heavens will disappear with a horrific noise, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze, and the earth and every deed done on it will be laid bare. Since all these things are to melt away in this manner, what sort of people must we be, conducting our lives in holiness and godliness, while waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God? Because of this day, the heavens will be burned up and dissolve, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze! But, according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness truly resides


(1Cor 14:3 )
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their

strengthening,
encouragement, and
consolation.

Actually Angels are waiting too ^_^

(1Pet 1:12 )
They were shown that they were serving not themselves but you, in regard to the things now announced to you through those who proclaimed the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven –

things angels long to catch a glimpse of.

It's just only thousand Years and we have many Authenticated Facts about it...that the Bible is True and what it is says...but since evil existed too many people will lure us not to rely on the Bible and other pastors does not want us to read the Bible...many churches do not explain the real truth on what it is written on the BIBLE...


(1Cor 14:31 [KJV])
For G1063 ye may G1410 all G3956 prophesy G4395 one by one G2596 G1520, that G2443 all G3956 may learn G3129, and G2532 all G3956 may be comforted G3870.

(1Cor 14:32 [KJV])
And G2532 the spirits G4151 of the prophets G4396 are subject G5293 to the prophets G4396.

(1Cor 14:33 [KJV])
For G1063 God G2316 is G2076 not G3756 the author of confusion G181, but G235 of peace G1515, as G5613 in G1722 all G3956 churches G1577 of the saints G40.

[jeffweeder]

You believe God is all powerful. That means he can do ANYTHING. So why was he forced to sacrifice Jesus in order to redeem mankind? If he can do ANYTHING, then that means he could have redeemed mankind just by snapping his fingers. Or by sacrificing a goat. Or by beating Super Mario World.

Hello CT
God doesnt play games or snap his fingers....theres a right way to do something and a wrong way.
God is just and righteous and loyal to himself, .....and he himself came to the conclusion that the penalty for sin was death.
Man put himself in that position ( that he would die) and God was compelled to find a legitimate way of breaking the spell....because he loved us.

The only way death could be conquered was if God found someone sinless to enter death and therefore conquer it. Thats a hard task as everyone born of a Man and a Woman suffers from the virus that causes the death.

God knew he would have to do it himself, and he did... So God was true and Just to what he had declared to the extent that his own blood was shed.

[Cartesiantheater]

Good answers, people. So, synthesizing the arguments, most of you believe it has to do with the personality of God himself, then. From Traveler, God is very much into Law and Order, and set the course of the universe to enable it to have Laws, then deceit, treachery and breaking of law, and then sacrifice to restore the Law. From Bob, God goes a step further and does all of this (or something similar) BECAUSE it is an epic journey itself, that is, the beauty of conflict and triumph. From Jeff, it is again something similar. From John, <(^,^)>.


I agree in part. If I were God, I'd want some sort of epic struggle between good and evil to occur, and for the side of Right to succeed only after turmoil and sacrifice. After all, the alternative is boring and meaningless and lacks that beauty.

Here's a thought: what if the struggle and such isn't merely for God's own sake, but is rather a GIFT to his creation?

After all, a parent cannot get much out of Christmas (or <insert Winter Holiday>). It is empty and meaningless in many ways, except one: the parent can give the meaningful experience and joy to his children, and watch from a far and take joy in the child's own joy.

So in God's case. He is all powerful. There is nothing he cannot do. His existence is BORING and useless, at least for himself. However, if he gave such an epic struggle to someone else, not only could the creature enjoy a life of meaning and danger and success and triumph, but He could take joy in watching his creation overcome such struggle.

Of course, the greatest triumph comes with the greatest risk and pain. Hence pain, suffering, evil and Hell.


Cruel? Sure. But the alternative is also cruel.

I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again.

Taking some from that, it is the struggle and triumph itself that gives the very meaning of our lives (or according to this view, anyway). Thus the Fall of Man, and what ensued as a result, is itself God's greatest gift to Creation.


Of course, I could just undo everything I said by pointing out that an All Powerful God can have his cake and eat it too. But perhaps a personality quirk of God prevented him from doing it that way (or perhaps he already has in some alternative dimension ==> angels?).

[johnBeeone]

If you were god? Lucifer and his cohorts is working hard to lure many people as he can that you will punish them to eternal sufferings...JOB 20:5

We weak people have learn to be humble... -_-

[Cartesiantheater]

If you were god? Lucifer and his cohorts is working hard to lure many people as he can that you will punish them to eternal sufferings...JOB 20:5

We weak people have learn to be humble... -_-

You misunderstand. The phrase was used to indicate that it makes some sense that God would do what he did according to the Bible, according to this context.

[johnBeeone]

I stand Corrected Thank you CT...^_^ put my words on the recycle bin if is not encouraging does not have learning...

[calliope]

I haven't seen a thread on this, so thought I'd see what the Christians say about it.



You believe God is all powerful. That means he can do ANYTHING. So why was he forced to sacrifice Jesus in order to redeem mankind? If he can do ANYTHING, then that means he could have redeemed mankind just by snapping his fingers. Or by sacrificing a goat. Or by beating Super Mario World. Whatever he wanted.

So why the need for brutal murder? Is it just to satisfy his rage at our folly? Then why was he forced to take that rage out on his own son? Or, him being all powerful, why didn't he just cause his rage to magically disappear? Same thing with "holiness" arguments. Why didn't he just use his all powerful might to simply erase unholiness without having to kill his son? Why the NEED to kill Jesus?


Et cetera.


Give me a good theological explanation for all this that does not ignore the fact that an all powerful god by definition is not REQUIRED to do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. Thanks.

Well, really we all are souls that are on a "mission" so to speak. It's like a learning mission. Humans really would be amazed to learn that the opportunity for souls, existing in the ethers, to have the chance to experience earth, and a physical body, is so coveted.....and considered a most brilliant privilege. (That's really what a lot of the bible is actually about.)

We are conditioned to think otherwise. That's why Jesus came. The whole purpose of our being here revolves around free will. It's the only reason we subject ourselves to such suffering.

It really isn't necessary, once we learn the concept of karma....not a simplistic equation of an eye for an eye, but a very subtle way of learning about the spiritual nature of our souls. It's actually much more complex and sophisticated a concept than that of tit-for-tat. Because once you master its inner workings, you rise above all that cause and effect stuff.

That's what's Jesus was here to teach us about. His teachings overflow with this wisdom. He didn't have to die, but he submitted to death to illustrate the supreme effects of free will -- the will of those who executed him.

And thus, he did arise from the dead as well. That was an entirely different teaching in and of itself. It was very esoteric.

But that's the story of Jesus, and his raison d'être.

Our free will is God's gift to us. To then blame him for the suffering that we inflict on ourselves and others, is to negate his purpose in planting us here altogether. But he did send his favorite, Jesus, to attempt to help us navigate the process.

Others too have learned what he taught. Some have stayed around to help the rest of us understand. They are referred to as bodhisattvas (divine beings worthy of nirvana who remains on the human plane to help men [people] to salvation.)

[johnBeeone]

I have not lost my mind, CT, but am speaking true and rational words. you know about these things, and I am speaking freely about the Real Jesus, because I cannot believe that any of these things has escaped your notice,

[Lillith]

[QUOTE=debonnaire;415357]Good topic.

Firstly the Father did not force the Son to come . The Son came willingly to do His will.

You send your Son to die, and he did your Will, would you love him more.
Or was the greater message, DO NOT BE AFRAID OF " DEATH". Yet, men kill to live. Rather ironic. Even the most devoted Christians stock weapons and march to war.

Secondly , if Jesus would not have come and died , how much would that have been convincing ?

Not very convincing at all. But as he did send his son to die, you can see exactly HOW convincing it has been. The very thought of any "father" sending his son to die in his stead? is rather in and of itself as horrifying as it is convincing, isn't it. A cruxification, no less. Were the entire Bible to be written today, and people so indoctrinated to beleive, well, woe would be the person stupid enough not to fear such a "parent" figure- rational society would consider them to be one screw short of psychopath. The Mayan mentality lives.

How much mankind could know about God’s love and how far she is from Him

Based upon "sacrifice" of ones child? Yea, its the ultimate. Nations do this routinely. Peoples sons and daughters are sent to die, in war as a matter of routine and upon their death, get the consolation prize. A letter from the "president" thanking them for their "sacrifice, a nice medal and memorial. But, it has come too be expected and accepted is it not? After all, God did it why shouldn't some insigficant human being follow his example of the sacrifice. These are gods ways as well.

Now, THATS conditioning.

(There are many reasons why Jesus had to become flesh and endure all things and die , as by that he also set an example).

certainly did.

[Lillith]

[QUOTE]

But he did send his favorite, Jesus, to attempt to help us navigate the process.

Did he have other sons, less favorite? Or just the one begotton one. Who really knows, maybe he did/does have other sons and they just flat out refused to be sacraficed! Maybe they were/ are defiant, disobedient lil rogues and raskals like their daddy. :)

As Cart points out, the Daddy appears to be rather tempermental, easily agitated, unforgiving when not obeyed and pleased.

[Goldmoon]

Because for God so love the World etc...^_^ but don't forget god cannot lie.....


Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day. The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; when it comes, the heavens will disappear with a horrific noise, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze, and the earth and every deed done on it will be laid bare. Since all these things are to melt away in this manner, what sort of people must we be, conducting our lives in holiness and godliness, while waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God? Because of this day, the heavens will be burned up and dissolve, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze! But, according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness truly resides

I had forgotten about this verse. Amazing, isn't it? Everyone should read this. Thanks for posting it. Its a sobering word.

[QUOTE=Lillith;415773]

As Cart points out, the Daddy appears to be rather tempermental, easily agitated, unforgiving when not obeyed and pleased.

Really forgiving, if you ask me, that He would save brutal sinners like us.

John 3:17

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

[Cartesiantheater]

As Cart points out, the Daddy appears to be rather tempermental, easily agitated, unforgiving when not obeyed and pleased.

I don't see anywhere where I was making that argument.

[Lillith]

I don't see anywhere where I was making that argument.

OK. Mea Culpa. Then I misunderstood your "argument". Then again, I'm not even sure you were presenting your thoughts for the purpose of an "argument"

But when you wrote;

So why the need for brutal murder? Is it just to satisfy his rage at our folly? Then why was he forced to take that rage out on his own son? Or, him being all powerful, why didn't he just cause his rage to magically disappear? Same thing with "holiness" arguments. Why didn't he just use his all powerful might to simply erase unholiness without having to kill his son? Why the NEED to kill Jesus

and

Good answers, people. So, synthesizing the arguments, most of you believe it has to do with the personality of God himself, then.

and

So in God's case. He is all powerful. There is nothing he cannot do. His existence is BORING and useless, at least for himself. However, if he gave such an epic struggle to someone else, not only could the creature enjoy a life of meaning and danger and success and triumph, but He could take joy in watching his creation overcome such struggle

God, could do all that you outlined. God, has choices. Perhaps, it's just me but when one make inferences as you did utilizing the words RAGE and personality, as it relates to holiness I associate such traits with being tempermental, impatience with disobedience (all that smiting, smoting and vengence throughout the Bible for those who disobey, etc), as "perasonality" traits humans easily identify with as they relate to themselves.

Such behavior for humans is also called EMPATHY, PROJECTION and TRANSFERENCE traits of a "personality"

[Anarch]

I haven't seen a thread on this, so thought I'd see what the Christians say about it.



You believe God is all powerful. That means he can do ANYTHING. So why was he forced to sacrifice Jesus in order to redeem mankind? If he can do ANYTHING, then that means he could have redeemed mankind just by snapping his fingers. Or by sacrificing a goat. Or by beating Super Mario World. Whatever he wanted.

So why the need for brutal murder? Is it just to satisfy his rage at our folly? Then why was he forced to take that rage out on his own son? Or, him being all powerful, why didn't he just cause his rage to magically disappear? Same thing with "holiness" arguments. Why didn't he just use his all powerful might to simply erase unholiness without having to kill his son? Why the NEED to kill Jesus?


Et cetera.


Give me a good theological explanation for all this that does not ignore the fact that an all powerful god by definition is not REQUIRED to do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. Thanks.

God wanted to make humanity squirm.... so he allowed the birth of mel gibson.

[Cartesiantheater]

OK. Mea Culpa. Then I misunderstood your "argument". Then again, I'm not even sure you were presenting your thoughts for the purpose of an "argument"

But when you wrote;



and



and




God, could do all that you outlined. God, has choices. Perhaps, it's just me but when one make inferences as you did utilizing the words RAGE and personality, as it relates to holiness I associate such traits with being tempermental, impatience with disobedience (all that smiting, smoting and vengence throughout the Bible for those who disobey, etc), as "perasonality" traits humans easily identify with as they relate to themselves.

Such behavior for humans is also called EMPATHY, PROJECTION and TRANSFERENCE traits of a "personality"

Yes, because you must not be thinking very hard when you read my post.

The point is to find some LOGICAL connection through it all that is LOGICALLY CONSISTENT with the Christian doctrine of God being all loving, etc.

The key being that it WASN'T merely petty anger, but rather a need to bring about life that has MEANING and BEAUTY. The use of pain and suffering in this light is meant as a means to bring about a struggle worthy of overcoming. I was asking the QUESTION to see if we could reason our way through it.