Unselfish deeds

[evilwill]

This topic came up in my english class and so I thought it would make a nice addition to AO.

The more I think about it, the more I believe there is no such thing as a completely selfless act. I think this is especially true in a capitalist society. Capitalism works because of the oppurtunity. There is freedom for those to make their own fortune for themselves, to better themselves. Almost every action can be traced back to a self driven motive. Hence, a society based on greed. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but there are always those that will lose out.

There are those in our world that constantly donate/work for charities and don't seem to get anything out of such. This seems to be selfless, doesn't it? Then again, they may be getting something out of it. It may not be a physical gain, but I'm sure most of you have heard about people just feeling good about themselves after doing something for charity to help the less fortunate. Obviously, this is not a selfless act. These people are still doing a good thing for the betterment of others, but they are recieving something in return.

A more large scale and devious example involves Bill Gates. Just recently he donated a large amount of money and computer equipment to Australia school students to help educate them in the use of modern technology. This appears to be an act of kindness, but think about the future. As these kids grow up, knowing how to use computers, they will need to constantly buy the latest equipment/software, which seems to be increasingly necessary these days. And guess who has the monopoly on operating systems and general coputer software? Mr Bill Gates.

I can go on with many more examples, but the point is obvious. A completely selfless act is not a reality. There are those that help others for something seemingly insignificant in return and there are those that hide under the guise of helping others for a later, more substantial benefit. Whatever the method/action, there is always a hint of self interest/motivation to perform such acts of kindness.

[Defiant Noquisi]

WOW! Thats one hell of a post EW! Its scary to have to agree with it even though I wish there was a way I didnt have to. It isnt all bad though. I do have to interject one lil thing because while he may very well be setting himself up for future profit, Gates is taking one hell of a risk. His charitable programs have given alot to reservations across the US when no one else would.

Reservation people have a per capita income not much over $3000 per person a year. Off the rez, our national poverty level is about $9000 per single person, about $18,4000 for a family of four. Donations outside of what traditionally is needed to survive are damn near non-existent for people on the rez. The failure rate for a majority of special programs is very high. However, Bill Gates took a risk and brought Microsoft to the rez.

Yes, its a tax break for him since he has to get rid of alot of money to lessen his tax burden. Sure, he gets written up and talked about in the media as a man of great fortune and charity. And yes, it does set up quite a cyclical problem since most all reservations he has brought his programs to could never afford to upgrade let alone keep up with the training needed. None of that really matters because what he also brought was hope to alot of people.

Through grants from Microsoft as well as partnership grants from the U.S. Department of Education, thousands of reservation people are now learning a technology they had little hope of ever seeing in their lifetime. Microsoft has not only donated computers, supplies and money; they have also set up training programs for the teachers to pass on to the students and even gone so far as holding open classrooms for anyone (such as the parents) to attend and learn.

By bringing this technology to the rez and for those who choose to utilize it, there is now much hope and promise for people who are so far removed from society that traditional business cant survive much less get started. These people can now do something to improve their situation without having to give up who they are and where they come from. They dont have to sell themselves out. It may not seem like alot, but even a gramma selling one Star Quilt, for say $300, thats a hell of alot of money to someone on the rez. Thats about one month of income.

It also gives the young people something do to rather than spending their time involving themselves with rez gangs, alcohol and drugs. We (as in the group I was with this summer) went to a Boys and Girls club to drop off school supplies. It was really cool to see a computer room there for the kids. They had about 10 computers hooked up to the internet in there as well as educational books and games. The entire cost of what was in that room was more than what 10 people living and working on the rez would make in a year.

Microsoft doesnt just give money, computers and training either. They also donate user licenses to their software (such as server programs) to Indian schools as well as money to the Bureau of Indian Affairs 4Directions Project.

While programs like these may seem like some kind of socially acceptable addiction food chain, they have also brought learning, hope and dignity to alot of people who had little to none. They have brought all of these things to people who have tried very hard for hundreds of years to hold onto and remember the great things about who they are in a society that would rather toss them out like garbage.

The very best part of it all is that with computers and the internet, the best thing possible is happening. Indians are now capable of hooking up with each other and helping each other out such as what we did this summer. This is made possible by such programs as Microsoft's. Indians helping Indians in the Indian Way and through modern technology ~ thats a phenominal thing.

[evilwill]

I agree that he is indeed doing a lot of good for people. My point was to illustrate that whilst someone may do very kind things for other people, if you look hard enough you will find an underlying motive of getting something out of it.

Hence, a completely selfless act does not exist.

[Defiant Noquisi]

The ones who do commit random acts of kindness who dont do it for gain, dont brag about it.

AHA! Thats where I can disagree! I know of many acts that are not for gain....unless you count feeling good after doing it as one of them. :

[40oz]

I would lay down my life for my kids, I assure you in the process I will not be thinking of rewards. That is a "selfless act".

[40oz]

I agree that he is indeed doing a lot of good for people. My point was to illustrate that whilst someone may do very kind things for other people, if you look hard enough you will find an underlying motive of getting something out of it.

Hence, a completely selfless act does not exist.

Premeditated handouts for personal gain? Most people that give to a person in need do not plan to do it, It is at the moment when that person or persons hits the givers "reality" that they are compelled to give. Not all people but most. The act of giving in order to receive a "warm-n-fuzzy" would totaly negate any reward forthcoming. Selfless acts do exist and are performed everyday. Is there a reward for giving a person material things out of there need? Yes I KNOW there is, but as I said earlier the act of giving to attain a reward is worthless.

*anyways this is how I view the subject and only my opinion.

[evilwill]

The ones who do commit random acts of kindness who dont do it for gain, dont brag about it.

AHA! Thats where I can disagree! I know of many acts that are not for gain....unless you count feeling good after doing it as one of them. :

Again that's part of my point. The get the feeling of doing something good. That is still getting something out of it.

I would lay down my life for my kids, I assure you in the process I will not be thinking of rewards. That is a "selfless act".

Hmm, this one is a little more difficult. I'll think on that and get back to you...

[mickydoolittle]

I would lay down my life for my kids, I assure you in the process I will not be thinking of rewards. That is a "selfless act".

Not really.

This is not a selfless act as you are preserving your genetic code in your offspring by giving your life so that they can continue to perpetuate your genes.

It's a Darwinian-thing.

[RavenWhitefang]

Having been raised by my grandma, I was taught to do things for others without the feelings of self gratification, such as the thanks that people give for picking up something they have dropped. I dont do it for the thanks, it doesnt phase me if they do or do not say anything. I do it because it was the thing to do at the time, its become more of an unconscious reaction because of the way I was raised.

[DontBeAfraid]

So you dont do it to feel good... No, you are like me, you do it not to feel bad.... We are not selfless.

[40oz]

Not really.

This is not a selfless act as you are preserving your genetic code in your offspring by giving your life so that they can continue to perpetuate your genes.

It's a Darwinian-thing.

All depends on which side of the fence stand in regards to evolution

[Doomer]

Ever notice how most commercials give the impression that the people in them genuinely want to help you with your real or imagineary (doesn't matter to them which) problem ? Stupid people think "I'm touched, these nice people really care about me, I'll call with my credit card ready like they asked me to."

Shameless, pedatory greed and selfishness are the hallmarks of todays America. Anyone with half a brain that looks beyond the sugar coating can see this. And who's the worst pedator of all ? Why it's the United States Government, of course. It sets the example the rest of Americans gladly follow.

[mickydoolittle]

Yeah. Real fatherly of you...

[40oz]

Yeah. Real fatherly of you...

Am I missing something? WTF does that mean? If it is meant in the description of that smilie icon I used, I dont have a clue as to what there translations are. Other then when I highlight it, it said Dork. Ya dork.

[mickydoolittle]

...it said Dork. Ya dork.

duh.

[DontBeAfraid]

No matter which side of the evolutionary debate you stand on, you would give up your life to avoid the pain of outliving your children.... NOT SELFLESS

[40oz]

No matter which side of the evolutionary debate you stand on, you would give up your life to avoid the pain of outliving your children.... NOT SELFLESS

Once again, not the way things work. One will not be thinking of "outliving" there offspring in the process of saving there childs life. In that moment, you would have little time to ponder such philosophical questions. Its Piss or get off the pot! I would like to think people would first and for most think about there childrens safety. Having the dreadful thought of outliving your children is a byproduct of a childs early demise.

[DontBeAfraid]

40oz it is the way things work... outliving the child is an afterthought as you said.... and its one that takes almost zero time to "ponder" as you put it.... But saving the childs life is NOT a selfless act.... It prevents the parent from the pain of outliving the child. Even if the the child was not in mortal danger, protecting the child prevents the parent from the unplesentness of knowing the child is injured.

You are trying to tell me that should the event in which you must protect you offspring arrise no matter which course of action you take you would feel the same with any outcome and that you would save the child selflessly.... Not the way things work. You would feel bad if you failed the child and therefore it is NOT SELFLESS.

[40oz]

Good point, I have been thinking about this question and seem to come up with the same thing over and over again. If you dissect any example of a selfless act there is a motive although it may be unknown at the time... Sooo technically I would have to take back my initial statement. Obviously if anyones child is in danger they would risk there lives to save them but why? Screw darwinism, Its because I/you want them to live, giving my/your actions a selfish meaning. My reason for changing my mind, simple scenario. Your brother is dying and in need of a kidney. You are a good candidate for a transplant, you decide to give your brother a kidney. You endure the pain and fear of surgery. Now that seems like a very VERY selfless act to me. However, it isn't because your motive was to keep your brother alive. You wanted him to live. To avoid the sadness of a loss you decided to give "selfishly" to keep him alive. I will still hope to find one true selfless act, although it seems now to be impossible. What a twisted question.

[mickydoolittle]

denial is such the intriguing thing. . .

[40oz]

denial is such the intriguing thing. . .

Denial of what? I simply posted without really thinking it through. We arent all as perfect as you.

[mickydoolittle]

We arent all as perfect as you.

And, this of course would be the larger loss to humanity, afterall.

[prezhorusin04]

i understand the argument here, and it does seem that a great many things can have a kind of alterior motive behind the sacrifice..

But even sacrifice in time of teaching your children what you can, is not all self serving..Giving to a child, family member, friend or stranger, does not always come with something to gain..

Silly examples:
1}Hey Bill, can you give me a ride home tonight? (You don't want to) Sure Roger, i'll give you a lift home tonight..(Even though he lives 45 minutes out of the way.)

2} "Hey Phil, can you please loan me $5 dollars? I'm broke and don't have money to eat!" says Larry. (Truth is, your broke too, but Larry's is a good guy..You should loan him money to eat tonight.) Sure Phil, i only have $10 dollars, but here's $5 so you can get some grub!

It might not be total sacrifice of life, but it is still a personal sacrifice that is made to help another..Probably the most profound sacrifice comes in the spur of the moment..

Such as a person who has 3 seconds to jump in front of a bullet for a stranger..Or a civilian who runs into a burning building to save a person or animal.A person who isn't paid, and jumps into a lake to save a drowning victim.

Of course, when thinking about it, there might be some kind of motive to the person who risks their lives, or dies for another.Maybe they feel bad about themselves, and are looking for redemption in their own eyes..Or maybe they are actually good people who would risk their lives for another with no other reason then it is the right thing to do..

A very deep and complex question Will. And one that probably desearves many more pages before it could possibly start to be unraveled and answered.

[Kohler]

Giving up your life to save your child is not a selfless act, because of the grief they will suffer afterwards.

Although one might say it is a heroic deed, another might argue it is selfish.

[Kohler]

I agree with EW. If you look hard enough you can always find a selfish motive.

Lets say someone gives up EVERYTHING they own to charity. On the surface it would be a huge sacrifice, however this person is most likely doing this for religious gains in the afterlife, if that is what they believe.


And on a lower surface, just any small favor. The person who is doing good for someone else assumes that the person they are helping will return the favor one day.