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Thread: When should philosophers remain silent?

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    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor palerider's Avatar
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    When should philosophers remain silent?

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    ...............??
    "Two things are infinite: the Universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the Universe." -Albert Einstein [1879-1955]

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    One left in the chamber Global Moderator TC's Avatar
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    Machiavelli concludes that even to remain silent is a form of speech within a political stance. If we deem an unjust action to have taken place, then how could a person of conscious not speak out.

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    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor palerider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC View Post
    Machiavelli concludes that even to remain silent is a form of speech within a political stance. If we deem an unjust action to have taken place, then how could a person of conscious not speak out.
    Good point but.....Eleonore Stump writes about exploration of the Holocaust and draws a conclusion: "Although it is vitally important to remember the Holocaust and to reflect deeply on it, taking it simply as one more example or counter-example in academic disputation on the problem of evil strikes me as unspeakably awful. It is enough for me that I am aware of the species that propogated this evil. Stricken awe in the face of it seems to me the only response possible" Eleonare Stump (2010 cited in Decker and Taliaferro 2012)

    Suggests that perhaps exploration is not always desirable from philosophers nor required. I think I am inclined to speak thus not remain silent, but I'm curious to those who are willing to engage to see how people view the voice of reason on issues of evil? Can it be reasoned to an acceptable conclusion, after all philosophers often end up in trouble??
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    One left in the chamber Global Moderator TC's Avatar
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    I read this passage several times, just to get a mental image. ( Night summery)

    "The men and women are separated, and Eliezer sees his mother and sisters vanishing in the distance. He holds onto his father and is determined not to lose him. A fellow prisoner tells Eliezer to say that he is eighteen (though he is really fourteen) and that his father is forty (though he is fifty). The prisoners who have been at Auschwitz for awhile are brutal and cruel to the new arrivals, and one of them tells them about the crematory. Some of the young men talk about revolting but are silenced by their elders. Then, everyone is forced to march past SS officer Dr. Mengele, who uses a baton to pick out who will remain alive and who will go to the crematory. Dr. Mengele looks cruel yet intelligent, and Eliezer tells him that he is eighteen and a farmer. Eliezer and his father are placed in the same group, which they are informed is the one destined for the crematory. Eliezer watches in horror as a truck full of children drives up to a giant, fiery ditch and the children are put into the flames. Eliezer's father is sad that he is going to see his only son consumed by fire, and he tells Eliezer that humanity is not present in the concentration camps. As the parade of men starts to recite the prayer for the dead for themselves and his father begins to weep, for the first time Eliezer feels himself revolt against God. The men march closer and closer to a fiery ditch, but at the last minute, they swerve away from the fiery ditch. Eliezer says he will never forget that night and the children's faces that he saw burned in flames. On that night his faith was consumed, and the silence of the night made him lose his will to live.

    I think my first reaction was rage, then hate, then whole heartedly wanting some horrible retribution brought down on peoples heads....then just silence, in utter disbelief of a manifested true evil.

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    Survivalist! Kiehlroy's Avatar
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    Many called Ayn Rand "evil"...

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    And many still do.

    Maybe she was just being honest?

    So, in that case, is "the truth" evil?

    Or is it just too hard for some to swallow?
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    One left in the chamber Global Moderator TC's Avatar
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    "Ayn Rand was not only a schlock novelist, she was also the progenitor of a sweeping “moral philosophy” that justifies the privilege of the wealthy and demonizes not only the slothful, undeserving poor but the lackluster middle-classes as well.

    Her books provided parables of "parasites," "looters" and "moochers" using the levers of government to steal the fruits of her heroes' labor. In the real world, however, Rand herself received Social Security payments and Medicare benefits under the name of Ann O'Connor (her husband was Frank O'Connor)"

    Ya gotta love the double morals huh ?

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    Survivalist! Kiehlroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC View Post
    "Ayn Rand was not only a schlock novelist, she was also the progenitor of a sweeping “moral philosophy” that justifies the privilege of the wealthy and demonizes not only the slothful, undeserving poor but the lackluster middle-classes as well.

    Her books provided parables of "parasites," "looters" and "moochers" using the levers of government to steal the fruits of her heroes' labor. In the real world, however, Rand herself received Social Security payments and Medicare benefits under the name of Ann O'Connor (her husband was Frank O'Connor)"

    Ya gotta love the double morals huh ?
    I figured there was some fuel for all the fiery criticism of her. What's sad is most of the people who have slandered her in front of me can never give a me such a reason.

    But, given her philosophy I would think she would she would say that she drew the benefits because of her own "rational self-interest"

    So, I'm still not convinced that she was dishonest. Extreme... definitely.
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    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor palerider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiehlroy View Post
    Many called Ayn Rand "evil"...

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    ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


    And many still do.

    Maybe she was just being honest?

    So, in that case, is "the truth" evil?

    Or is it just too hard for some to swallow?
    Hardly a reliable source on which to base questions of 'truth'. If only 'truth' were so simple, its complexity makes it difficult to handle in any meaningful way in discussions, especially around evil. When we speak of 'truth' we may mean many different things, such as scientific truth moral truth or even on a more subjective level personal truth......when you speak of truth in this way, what truth do you mean?

    Can truth be 'swallowed'? -of course you mean the acceptance of truth. Well again not so simple a problem, truth if morally sought and as TC raises is down to whether your morality is tha same as my sense of morality, in that way truth might be much more easier to swallow than difficult. Clearly your view of the truth concerning the events described is based on a different set of moral values or even your own moral virtues?

    I would argue without entering iinto long lengthy explanations, that it is not the truth itself that is hard to swallow, more importantly it is the events leading to the truth that leave a nasty taste in the mouth sometimes....

    With that said, I note you mentioned 'rational self-interest' in your last post in relation to Ayn Rand, I would dispute that use of language in that context, to me there is either a paradoxical problem with Rands writings or simply a complete contradiction of terms.....in fact I would go far as to say highly fallicous reasoning or at the very least sophistry at work.
    Last edited by palerider; May 4th, 2012 at 8:38 AM.
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    Survivalist! Kiehlroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider View Post
    Hardly a reliable source on which to base questions of 'truth'. If only 'truth' were so simple, its complexity makes it difficult to handle in any meaningful way in discussions, especially around evil. When we speak of 'truth' we may mean many different things, such as scientific truth moral truth or even on a more subjective level personal truth......when you speak of truth in this way, what truth do you mean?

    Can truth be 'swallowed'? -of course you mean the acceptance of truth. Well again not so simple a problem, truth if morally sought and as TC raises is down to whether your morality is tha same as my sense of morality, in that way truth might be much more easier to swallow than difficult. Clearly your view of the truth concerning the events described is based on a different set of moral values or even your own moral virtues?

    I would argue without entering iinto long lengthy explanations, that it is not the truth itself that is hard to swallow, more importantly it is the events leading to the truth that leave a nasty taste in the mouth sometimes....

    With that said, I note you mentioned 'rational self-interest' in your last post in relation to Ayn Rand, I would dispute that use of language in that context, to me there is either a paradoxical problem with Rands writings or simply a complete contradiction of terms.....in fact I would go far as to say highly fallicous reasoning or at the very least sophistry at work.
    So how many eggs you got in your basket???



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    Survivalist! Kiehlroy's Avatar
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    So,

    In other words:

    If a "philosopher" falls silent in the woods,

    Does anyone hear it?
    Last edited by Kiehlroy; May 6th, 2012 at 4:55 AM.
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    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor AnneOminous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider View Post
    ...............??
    Almost always.

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    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor palerider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiehlroy View Post
    So how many eggs you got in your basket???



    Enough for the whole movie???
    Do I need any eggs at all?
    "Two things are infinite: the Universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the Universe." -Albert Einstein [1879-1955]

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    AIZUMNO1 ZA5O5UUM dedanoe's Avatar
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    when should a philosopher remain silent ???
    8) from the moment when anything he says can and will be used against him in the court of law
    1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1) it's okay to go wise and not give a fuxx
    0) in the last days of his life inflicted by starvation because of him not having said enough
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    Last edited by dedanoe; May 8th, 2012 at 5:20 AM.
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    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor palerider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dedanoe View Post
    when should a philosopher remain silent ???
    8) from the moment when anything he says can and will be used against him in the court of law
    1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1) it's okay to go wise and not give a fuxx
    0) in the last days of his life inflicted by starvation because of him not having said enough
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    I particuarly like the last point 0) in the last days of his life inflicted by starvation because of him not having said enough.....and 8) from the moment when anything he says can and will be used against him in a court of law....
    "Two things are infinite: the Universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the Universe." -Albert Einstein [1879-1955]

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    AIZUMNO1 ZA5O5UUM dedanoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider View Post
    I particuarly like the last point 0) in the last days of his life inflicted by starvation because of him not having said enough.....and 8) from the moment when anything he says can and will be used against him in a court of law....
    philosopher is A man (0..8) while God is EDEN (1) with unforeseeable extend. who's the philosopher you have in mind for point 0) and point 8) applied on him seem to you this much lovely ??? let's petty him together.

    yesterday i was preparing my mind for today to do me the graphical plot of swastika field of lever in 2D (now i have to skip it for a day or two) but regarding what i recently have said (don't know how recent is that recent and what is it i said and where have i said it) somebody got very concerned and is trying to bring me to my senses: kiddo it's not all about giving your statements enough strength so they can move a mountain but besides numbers and letters there are also humans in this world that get affected by that same strength, care what, they might get moved in unpleasant way. well who gave them permission to mess with my toys (numbers and letters), i can have only EDEN (1) as my true master ???

    the world is a crossword of numbers and letters:


    Infinite Power of EDEN ??? lets widen it up A bit >>>

    2^3 = (2 - 1) (2^2 + 2^1 + 2^0) + 1;
    2^4 = (2 - 1) (2^3 + 2^2 + 2^1 + 2^0) + 1;
    2^5 = (2 - 1) (2^4 + 2^3 + 2^2 + 2^1 + 2^0) + 1;

    so if 2 was 1 and its power was infinity then

    1^(1/0) = (1 - 1) (1^(1/0 - 1) + 1^(1/0 - 2) + 1^(1/0 - 3) + ... + 1^2 + 1^1 + 1^0) + 1 = zero times infinity plus EDEN (1) so... because zero times infinity is finite random (0 < n < 1/0) plus 1 cums to be no-one i mean something other than 1; he's infinite by power to him everything goes... 1^(1/0) are all the non-Eden numbers surrounding the one -- the holy spirit.
    Last edited by dedanoe; May 10th, 2012 at 10:13 AM.
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    Dead Meat works4dhs's Avatar
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    "I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate [from their right].
    "Therefore the prudent shall keep silence in that time; for it [is] an evil time."
    Amos 5:12-13
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    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor palerider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by works4dhs View Post
    "I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate [from their right].
    "Therefore the prudent shall keep silence in that time; for it [is] an evil time."
    Amos 5:12-13
    Oh dear.....can of worms opened.........messy!!!

    Do we need such biblical wisdom to decide when philosophers should remain silent......is biblical guidance truly authorative??
    "Two things are infinite: the Universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the Universe." -Albert Einstein [1879-1955]

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    AIZUMNO1 ZA5O5UUM dedanoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by works4dhs View Post
    "I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate [from their right].
    "Therefore the prudent shall keep silence in that time; for it [is] an evil time."
    Amos 5:12-13
    Јас с'м тао штом с'м И с'с сум сс' тоа што не с'м
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    made it... the next generation of magna lever... not quite what i was expecting but good as milestone... at this point it is liner in geometry but it can go cubic, quad and beyond...
    Last edited by dedanoe; May 11th, 2012 at 2:57 PM.
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    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor palerider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiehlroy View Post
    So,

    In other words:

    If a "philosopher" falls silent in the woods,

    Does anyone hear it?
    Silence can always be heard.....does it mean that the silence is a philosopher not speaking?
    "Two things are infinite: the Universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the Universe." -Albert Einstein [1879-1955]

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    AIZUMNO1 ZA5O5UUM dedanoe's Avatar
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    lets put the police aside for a while... a philosopher should remain silent from the moment when his listener perceives his conversation as psychic rape | that makes the philosopher no longer educator but a violent rapist | sex we do in our minds first | fear is the learning thirst and fear is not pleasant.
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    AIZUMNO1 ZA5O5UUM dedanoe's Avatar
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    there is another crucial thing about the subject: most of what philosophers say are like statements of eternal wisdom. so what would be the point of asking when should he remain silent when his statements keep ringing in the head ever after ???
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    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor palerider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dedanoe View Post
    there is another crucial thing about the subject: most of what philosophers say are like statements of eternal wisdom. so what would be the point of asking when should he remain silent when his statements keep ringing in the head ever after ???
    Erm...in your world maybe.....

    In the world seperate from my world (you getting the idea)...and seperate from your world, that is 'their world' ...its difficult to say firstly on who is the philosopher and then the person with the ringing in the head......wisdom is not philosophy at all, although philosophy may well lead to wisdom....
    Last edited by palerider; May 11th, 2012 at 6:17 PM. Reason: mistake
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    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor palerider's Avatar
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    Be wise my friends....think about all of the options you have and logical possibilities, form your opinion on what your heart tells you and your mind wanders upon...I don't think that philosophy can ever be an answer per se, but boy oh boy when thinking about the most trivial things leads to the bigger questions....then give your soul to a thoughful way...
    "Two things are infinite: the Universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the Universe." -Albert Einstein [1879-1955]

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    Survivalist! Kiehlroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider View Post
    Silence can always be heard.....does it mean that the silence is a philosopher not speaking?
    I don't know but my ears have been ringing for at least three years...

    Maybe six

    Is that silence, or just tinnitus?

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    Survivalist! Kiehlroy's Avatar
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    deleted.....
    Last edited by Kiehlroy; Jun 9th, 2012 at 2:56 PM.
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