Is the economy on the down swing?

[lycanox]

Idiot.

The USA, as the first world country makes the rules, thus can bend or break the rules when seem fitting for the USA.

Economic rules are determined by the economy itself. They are basically like natural laws.
Even the US cant make a law that states that hyperinflation is a good thing. Or that the economy can function without a secure middle class.

Besides, the US does not have that much power. They have been begging China to raise its yuan for ages with no avail.

[Beatnik Bob]

If the euro zone died tomorrow then the USA would have a serious case of hiccups, but it would get over it. However if the dollar were to die then expect total confusion worldwide

Many have advocated replacing the dollar as the world's reserve currency.

Make up your mind.

Make a valid point or GTFO.

yes well. You know alot about bitching don't you.

As a spectator looking in... You are bitching a great deal more than Lycanox is.

Do you understand English? English grammar?

Yes. I also understand Hebrew and Spanish grammar.

I'm currently perfecting my German.

If you did you would not have wrote what you just wrote. Seriously.

LOL. You mean *written. I would not have written what I just wrote.
Sounds like you need an English grammar lesson. We use "written" because it is an imperfect tense for something done in the past. "wrote" does not apply in past imperfect. You wouldn't say, "you/he have/has wrote" would you? No. You would say "written" because a form of the verb "to have" is there.
....thank you for proving you're a fool with nothing overly important to say.


I'm not interested in shit slinging right now. Either you have something valid to bring to the table or you do not.

On another thread you fancied yourself as a bit of an economist. All well and good as we do need money men.

I'm in litigation.

And we do really need people who understand money in order for our energies to work as it is few people who understand how money works.

You wouldn't like most of our premier economic geniuses anyway. They do not necessarily agree with you.

I am not sure of the cause of such a lack in understanding of how money works, (in the average population of any given country), maybe a fault in general education?

Considering how grossly underfunded education is.

As in knowledge is dangerous type of scenario practised since centuries within religious sects. Therefore, as a fancier of money knowledge it is quite astounding that you agreed with Lynx’s bad misinterpretation of English.

English is not lycanox's native language. True. But that does not mean that he didn't make himself understood. I am not such a redneck that his point was incomprehensible to me.
Also, one does not need to speak English to understand math or economics.

Please tell me where I wrote this? Or are you just using cheap conjecture to make yourself look good.

Or did you just say "cheap conjecture" to appear intelligent, in spite of the fact you haven't said anything or made a point--substantial or otherwise. Stop wasting the time of other people and go watch fireworks or something.

I would not blame you though after reading your Paris Pants thread. They never took off by the way.

I have an interest in art. I just enjoy it. If you have an issue with that, then that sounds like a personal problem.

[Ningishiddza]

Is the economy on the down swing?

Of course it is. It has never been looking up. I told you that 7 years ago back in 2006. This is how it will be until the end of this decade, and then I don't know for certain what will happen after that. You'll have to survive the 35%-45% annual Real Inflation rate for nearly a decade that Obama is setting up for you now. Good luck with that.

One of the big issues is that "you-Harvards" and the less intelligent on this forum are incapable of distinguishing between government spending and government investing. Spending and investing are not the same thing. Giving money to teachers, fire-fighters and construction workers on shovel-ready jobs might win votes through bribery, but that is spending, not investing. You can see that here:

December 31, 2001
National Debt $5.94 TRILLION
Real GDP $11.35 TRILLION

March 30, 2012
National Debt $15.6 TRILLION
Real GDP $13.4 TRILLION

Percentage increase in National Debt over that period:
($15.6 - $5.94) / $5.94 * 100 = 162.62%

Percentage increase in Real GDP over that period:
($13.4 - $11.35) / $11.35 * 100 = 18.06%

Effectively, for every $9.00 in tax payer dollars you over-spent or more correctly that you wasted on nothing, you got $1 in GDP. That period covers both Bush the Younger and The Boy King™.

December 31, 2008
National Debt $10.7 TRILLION
Real GDP $13.2 TRILLION

March 30, 2012
National Debt $15.6 TRILLION
Real GDP $13.4 TRILLION

Percentage increase in National Debt over that period:
($15.6 - $10.7) / $10.7 * 100 = 44.86%

Percentage increase in Real GDP over that period:
($13.4 - $13.2) / $13.2 * 100 = 1.51%

Effectively, for every $29.71 in tax payer dollars you over-spent throwing away money on nothing, you got $1 in GDP.

Obama could have invested money, instead of spending money, by creating a national plan to shift 85% of all freight from over-the-road trucking to rail within 8 years. Had he done that, nearly 4 Million Americans would be working again, and more importantly, working in jobs that do not compete globally. But Obama is a man bereft of vision and intelligence, and even that wouldn't be so bad, except that he caters to unions, and there's no way Obama would ever have the courage to stand up to the Teamster's Union and tell them they need to do what is best for all of America. Move your freight to rail and you significantly reduce demand for diesel, resulting in lower shipping costs, which translates into lower prices at the store for all items, even more so for food items.

You're in a Global Economy, and there is no going back. You can like it, love it, hate, refuse to acknowledge it, whatever, but it will not change the reality that you're in a Global Economy. And in that Global Economy, the American worker is way over-paid an outrageous amount of money for his labor in comparison to the rest of the world. Everyone is being held accountable for bad choices they made. It is a matter of Opportunity Cost. You decided that having convenient stores open 24 hours was more important than manufacturing, and so to meet your demand for 24 hour convenient stores, labor was shifted from manufacturing to lesser paying jobs at convenient stores, because that is what you wanted.

You also decided that you wanted more shopping hours. You wanted stores to open earlier, to stay open longer in the evening, to be open on Sundays, and Holidays, and in many instances, you demanded that Wal-Mart, Kroger's, Meijjer's and other retailers be open 24 hours per day. It requires labor to provide those services at so at you insistence, at your demand, per your request, labor was shifted from manufacturing to retail to meet the demands you insisted upon having.

You also decided that coffee was more important than manufacturing, and that health care and many other hospitality and service venues, like dog grooming, and colonic irrigation and massage therapy etc etc etc were a necessary part of your life, and you demanded labor for those things and especially Baristas to work at StarSucks so you can all look cool with steamed milk in your coffee, because everyone knows only cool people used steamed milk, and so at the expense of manufacturing, labor was shifted to the service sector, the government sector and the health care sector to meet your demands.

While that was happening, you lost your ability to indiscriminately murder to steal resources, and to rape and pillage and loot countries of their profits, wealth and natural resources. No longer could you overthrow a government, oh, like the Greek government. Who caused this mess in Greece? That would be the Democrat President and the Democrat-controlled House and the Democrat-controlled Senate that overthrew the Greek government and set up a right-wing dictatorship.

And then that would be a different Democrat President and a different Democrat-controlled House and a different Democrat-controlled Senate that overthrew the Greek government a second time (twice in 20 years) because the first right-wing dictator the Democrats installed wasn't right-wing enough. So the Greek people are oppressed economically and have their civil rights violated for 30 years...

...thanks to the US.

So we have the (2nd) illegal US over-throw of the Greek government in April 1967 by a Democrat President and Democrat-controlled House and Democrat-controlled Senate. Let's talk about the 8,000 Greeks who died in the first month after the illegal US over-throw.

And some have the gall to whine about Syria.

Let's talk about martial law, beatings, murders, torture, censorship, with mandatory church attendance, bans on long hair and miniskirts and foreign newspapers (except for US newspapers of course). So having been beaten down for 40 years and denied opportunities and a satisfying life, Greeks rebel when they finally get some semblance of freedom, but go over-board demanding "compensation" for the horrors they suffered for 40 years, thanks to two different Democrat Presidents and two different Democrat-controlled Houses and two different Democrat-controlled Senates. Once you understand that, you can understand the back-lash that followed. Your government (under the tutelage of the US) oppresses you for 30 years, you're owed, right? Aren't you owed something? Don't you deserve some compensation for the oppression you suffered?

And some of you would say, well, the Greek people should have done something.

Um, excuse me, but the Greek people did do something, and for their efforts the US Government labeled them as Terrorists™.

None of you have been to Greece and I seriously doubt any of you remember the travel bans and warnings from the US State Department for northern Greece, because "terrorists" were kidnapping US tourists and holding them for ransom to get funds to buy weapons to overthrow the US-puppet government the US installed to run Greece. I just thought I'd mention that so we can dispense with the stupidity.

And the whole time the US government rammed military goods down the throats of the Greek people: naval ships, A-7 Corsairs, F-104 Star-Fighters, F-4 Phantom IIs, F-16 Falcons, Honest John SRBMs, 8"/203"mm AFAPs, M48 Patton Tanks, M60A1/A3 Tanks, M113s, M557s, field artillery of all manner, and lots of radars and other cool machines, and lots of weapons and lots of bullets.

And who do you think paid for all that? The Greek people did, by enjoying a substandard life-style, thanks to the peace-loving Democrats.

The US can still do that in an handful of small countries, like when Obama illegally overthrew the Honduran government 3 years ago. And that was the 14th time in 100 years that the US has overthrown an Honduran government, and the Honduran people still suffer because of it.

Not being able to plunder countries really sucks for the US, and even that wouldn't be so bad, except that BRIC is doing exactly what the US has always refused to do, and that is develop countries. It's the end of WW II, the economies of all other major countries are smashed, their manufacturing base destroyed, their infrastructure damaged or destroyed, millions dead, millions more wounded and injured, agriculture suffers, etc etc. The US is the only game in town, so you get this "Wage Bubble" going and to make matters worse, the US is oppressing other countries to keep them from developing so that they won't compete against the US, and then you have the Bretton Woods Agreement which makes the US Dollar supreme internationally, with no competition.

All that is being undone. Other countries are being developed by BRIC and they are consuming resources and they are competing against the US and now there are other major currencies competing against the US Dollar and another major currency soon to follow.

Forced to compete on a level playing field -- the US is just as hapless as the rest of the world. There is no more special advantage to the US.

Going back to the shift in labor from manufacturing to services, in a real world with no US evil, the shift would have been from manufacturing to the couch. Ford cannot sell its autos made by $40/hour union workers in India. What's the smart thing to do? Open up a plant in India, which is exactly what Ford is doing. All other automakers are operating in India and getting profits, so if Ford doesn't act, they will cease to exist. Apparently, this is what a lot of you want to see:

Built Dongfeng-Ford Tough

Wouldn't you rather be driving a Jianghuai-Buick?

Imagine Yourself in a Fiat-Mercury now.

Hyundai-Hyummer. Like Nothing Else

Always Pernod-Ricard-Coca-Cola

Did somebody say Becker Imbiß-McDonald's?

Like a good neighbor, Albingia-State Farm is there.

Pretty cool, huh? Isn't that what you all want? Don't you all want foreign corporations to take over all US corporations? Just a reminder, you are a measly 312 Million people and just 4.5% of the World's population. You aren't needed to make the world go round. So, what big brains want to criticize US corporations for sitting on cash? (Because huge piles of cash are the only way to stop an hostile takeover or leveraged buyout). Ford is no longer competing against AMC-Jeep, Chrysler, General Motors and other automakers in the US. Ford must compete globally to stay alive, but then I'm just assuming you all want jobs.

And corporate taxes? The rest of the world pays less, and then on top of that, those companies are subsidized by their governments. How are US corporations supposed to compete globally against other companies who pay less in taxes and are subsidized by their governments? That's like fighting with both hands tied behind your back.

Let's talk about Social Security. When Boomers started working, the FICA tax was 3.625% and then it was increased to 6.2%. Let's do the math (lest there be any confusion).

6.200
3.625 less
-------
2.575 / 3.625 * 100 = 71.03%

Boomers had a 71% payroll tax increase, to fund Social Security, so it would be there when they retire.

How much have Social Security taxes increased for Gen X and Gen Y? Again, we'll do the math:

6.20
6.20 less
----------
0 / 6.2 * 100 = 0%

Wow, a whopping 0% FICA tax increase on Gen X and Gen Y.

Boomers can have Social Security, because they paid higher tax rates to ensure that it would be there for them. Not only is Gen X and Gen Y not paying higher tax rates for Social Security, they have been getting a 2% rebate for the last 18 months. The April 2012 Social Security Trustees Report recommends an immediate FICA tax increase to 7.05% Let's do the math together.

7.05
6.20 less
----------
0.85 / 6.2 * 100 = 13.7%

Gosh, a whole big gigantic humongous 13.7% increase. How do you people live with yourselves?

Boomers took a 71.03% FICA tax increase and grinned and bared it so that Social Security would be there for them. Gen X and Gen Y have suffered no FICA tax increase, and in fact are enjoying a 2% rebate and then they have the unmitigated gall to whine that Social Security won't be there. Well, do what the Boomers did and increase your FICA tax rate so you'll have something. This is just another case of Gen X and Gen Y wanting something for nothing and without even working for it.

Realistically, FICA needs to be increased to 9.2% now, this second, with a 0.6% increase every year for 23-25 years (and that would only guarantee Social Security lasts through 2030 at most).

I'm sure one of the Libtard Morons will start frothing at the mouth and scream the familiar chant, "Tax the Rich!" Okay, let's do that.

The IRS reports that there were 236,883 tax-payers in 2009 who earned more than $1 Million. They earned a total of $727 Billion. You and many others are under the false and misguided impression that eliminating the cap on earnings will solve the problems of Social Security (and Medicare). Let's look at that. Calling the cap $110,000 for easier math, those 236,883 people pay 6.2% on $110,000 or:

$110,000 * 6.02% * 236,883 = $1,568,639,226 or $1.5 Billion

If we eliminate the cap then:

$727 Billion * 6.02% = 43,765,400,000 or $42.7 Billion.

That won't even cover the current annual shortfall.

That will be $42 Billion that States cannot potentially tax as Sales Tax Revenue, resulting in an average loss of $65 Million in Sales Tax Revenue per State per year. Is your State so financially sound that it can afford to lose $65 Million in revenues? Really? How many cities in the US are on the verge of bankruptcy, or on the verge of defaulting on city government employee pension plans? How many States have government employee pension plans that are woefully underfunded? And losing $65 Million is a good thing?

Have you thought about the consequences?

When the FICA Tax Holiday Fiasco ends, will States see an increase in revenues or a decrease in revenues? A decrease. When the Obama Tax Cuts finally end (Obama owns them now -- they are no longer Bush the Younger's) will States see an increase or decrease in revenues? A decrease. In the recent April 2012 Social Security Trustee Report, we see that Social Security adamantly suggests an immediate hike to 7.05%. Have you considered how that will affect the revenues collected by States? Suppose the average disposable income in a State is $20,000 per year and there are 10 Million workers, so

10,000,000 * $20,000 = $200 Billion * 6.5% Sales Tax = $13 Billion

10,000,000 * $19,790 = $19.8 Billion * 6.5% Sales Tax = $12.8 Billion

The State just lost $200 Million in Sales Tax revenues.

Now what? What should the State do? Increase services, or cut services? Raise taxes? Except 7.05% ain't gonna get it. It ought to be at 9.2% right now, assuming you want to keep Social Security.

10,000,000 * $19,400 = $19.4 Billion * 6.5% Sales Tax = $12.6 Billion

Now the State has lost $400 Million in Sales Tax revenues.

Can your State afford that?

Oh, sorry, I forgot, your State doesn't need no stinking sales tax receipts, right? Whenever your city, county or State needs money, it just falls out of the sky, doesn't it?

Through the infinite horizon, the unfunded obligation, or shortfall, equals $20.5 trillion in present value, which represents 3.9 percent of future taxable payroll or 1.3 percent of future GDP.

And, um, (snicker) pray tell, what exactly does Social Security think the US GDP will be in 2086? Let's look on Page 65 of the April 2012 Report (Page 73 if you are using Adobe Acrobat).

Drum-roll please.....

$1,569.1 TRILLION

or

$15.6 QUADRILLION

or

$15,691,100,000,000,000 (if you prefer)

So, how, exactly, does the US GDP go from its present $15.2 TRILLION to $1.56 QUADRILLION in 75 years? Your economy has to grow at an average annual rate of 6.45% which will bring it to $1.55 QUADRILLION in 2086. That isn't even remotely possible. Your average annual GDP growth rate since 1961 has been 2.89%. And yes, for the not too bright, that is for the last 50 years. To recap, for the last 50 years since 1961, your economy has grown 2.89% per year, but your government thinks that over the next 75 years, your economy is going to grow at 6.45%.

2001-2010 1.68%
1991-2010 2.55%
1981-2010 2.79%
1971-2010 2.89%
1961-2010 3.16%


1961-1970 4.22%
1971-1980 3.21%
1981-1990 3.27%
1991-2000 3.41%
2001-2010. 1.68%

Average 2.89%

Are you going to believe Reality™, or government lies?

When Social Security was initiated, there were 42 workers per retiree. That ratio had dropped to 16-to-1 by 1950. As of 2010, there were 2.8 workers per retiree. The ratio is expected to be 2.0 workers per retiree in 2050 (and that is proof of a Ponzi-Scheme). Okay, there are 141,995,000 Americans employed and as of March 2012 there were 61,273,000 Social Security recipients. I'll be nice and do the math for you.

141,995,000 / 61,273,000 = 2.3 workers per retiree.

Oooops.

Like I have repeatedly said, 5% unemployment with a Labor Force Participation Rate <66.5% is a total fail. Might as well be 20% unemployment. The issues with both Social Security and Medicare are that:

1] High unemployment
2] High underemployment -- meaning people forced to work part-time because no jobs are available
3] Declining/stagnant wages
4] Declining household income
5] Low labor participation rate

In order to have any chance at all of funding Social Security and Medicare, you need an unemployment rate of ~5% and a Labor Force Particpation Rate greater than or equal to 66.5%

Why?

Holy shit, that goes back to this:

141,995,000 / 61,273,000 = 2.3 workers per retiree.

You need to be between 2.8-3.0 workers per retiree for as long as you possibly can, through at least 2035.

2.3 Workers don't get it. That will just eat up the OASI/OADI and HI (Medicare) Trust Funds faster, and the only way you can convert the Trust Funds to cash is by raising taxes, or cutting government spending or both.

And for the morons, as useless an effort as it might be:

Black's: Insurance is a contract whereby for a stipulated consideration, one party undertakes to compensate the other for loss on a specific subject by specified perils.

Who does not understand "specified peril?"

You sell Life Insurance, the policy is $500,000, then how much are you as the insurance company on the hook for? Well, that's easy: $500,000.

You sell Home Insurance, the home is valued at $250,000, and there's a $1 Million in personal liability (in the event a guest is injured on your property -- perhaps falling down the stairs or something), so how much are do you the insurance company owe? Again, that's easy: $1.25 Million.

You sell Auto Insurance, the car is valued at $30,000, you got $25,000 liability for 2nd and 3rd parties, and $100,000 on the insuree, so what are you on the hook for here? That's easy: $155,000.

You sell a $1 Million E&O policy to a business, what are you the insurance company on the hook for? $1 Million.

You sell an "health insurance" (snicker) policy to John & Jane Doe, and their snot-nosed Trophy Kids, and what are you on the hook for here?

You have no freaking clue.

Maybe $9,200 or maybe $79,000 or maybe $235,000 or maybe $890,000 or maybe $2.2 Million. One of these things is not like the others.....

See the problem?

"How much money should we spend on one person for health care in their life-time?"

The other problem is those people want open-ended plans with no limits. You cannot afford that as a country. If you spend $1 Million per person per life-time --- and that works out to just $13,333 per year for someone who lives 75 years --- then you owe $312 TRILLION and you do not have the money now, nor will you ever have it in the future. Okay, we'll limit people to $500,000 per lifetime or an average of $6,666 per year for 75 years -- can't do that either, because that costs $156 TRILLION and you do not have the money now, nor will you ever have it in the future. $250,000 per person per lifetime (or $3,333 per year for 75 years)? That would be $78 TRILLION and no, you don't have that either, nor will you ever.

You're already $36.8 TRILLION in the hole for Medicare, and you cannot possibly pay that any more than you can pay for the unfunded future liability of Social Security. Any type of universal health care system as envisioned by Liberals would economically destroy the US, causing higher unemployment rates and a lower standard of living for everyone in an attempt to pay for such a system....but as I already pointed out, there's no possible way to pay for such a system now or in the future. And you'll see that as soon as people start paying the "tax" on health care.

Anyway, I said years and years ago that your country would undergo major changes. Don't be surprised if in the 2020 some 20%to 25% of Americans are sharing living accommodations with other persons or families, because they simply will not be able to afford to live on their own, and least not live on their own and still have things like cable, cell-phones etc.

Things ain't over by a long shot, and the worse is still yet to come.

None of you have any idea how hopelessly utterly screwed you really are. But you will soon enough. It's coming.

[DontBeAfraid]

Nings post contain mostly lies and fabricated info with small amounts or factual info sprinkled in so that he can point to those small facts and contend that the rest is true as well... Overall, they arent worth anybodies time to read...

[Blu-ray]

Ning... Why do you come to the US after all? I mean if it is such a shithole and in such dire straits, why not stay in Eastern Europe and not Ohio?

[Traveler]

Nings post contain mostly lies and fabricated info with small amounts or factual info sprinkled in so that he can point to those small facts and contend that the rest is true as well... Overall, they arent worth anybodies time to read...

And on your say so we must just take that as fact even if you have not provided what you consider the correct figures.

No the principle behind what Ning says here stands up. There is more dept than can be repaid and the debits exceed the credits. You liberals have been sold a dream that can't be paid for under the current economic rules.

You call for a socialistic provision of health care while the medical industry operates on capitalistic principles. It will not work unless you take over the pricing structure of the industry as well as in drop the prices of the drugs and procedures down to the cost of manufacturing and controlling the salaries and hours of the workers as well.

[DontBeAfraid]

And on your say so we must just take that as fact even if you have not provided what you consider the correct figures.

lol... That would imply that I still read any of nings bullshit posts... He established this pattern for himself a long time ago and Im just providing the service of a billboard for what his posts contain.

No the principle behind what Ning says here stands up.

Sometimes it does sometimes it doesnt...

There is more dept than can be repaid and the debits exceed the credits. You liberals have been sold a dream that can't be paid for under the current economic rules.

These two sentences indicate to me that you dont know what money actually is and what currency actually represents... Its not that liberals have been sold a lie... Its everyone who uses money that thinks its based on value and not debt... Money is just debt, loaned out on itself at interest... There are no conditions in the universe that could ever allow for it to be "paid back"... but that is not the point of money anyways... Its real value is its assigned worth for service and material goods... It makes trade easier/possible... that is all it does. People who make money by trading money are just parasites on the system.

You call for a socialistic provision of health care while the medical industry operates on capitalistic principles.

Actually, any "capitalistic principles" you find in the healthcare industry are "add-ons" from the parasitic insurance middlemen who currently run the death panels... ;)

It will not work unless you take over the pricing structure of the industry as well as in drop the prices of the drugs and procedures down to the cost of manufacturing and controlling the salaries and hours of the workers as well.

A single payer system would help with this tremendously... as things are, the individual mandate is supposed to help as much as it can but without extra oversight we are basically just putting trust in the parasitic for profit insurance companies to do the right thing...

[Beatnik Bob]

Pretty cool, huh? Isn't that what you all want? Don't you all want foreign corporations to take over all US corporations? Just a reminder, you are a measly 312 Million people and just 4.5% of the World's population. You aren't needed to make the world go round. So, what big brains want to criticize US corporations for sitting on cash? (Because huge piles of cash are the only way to stop an hostile takeover or leveraged buyout). Ford is no longer competing against AMC-Jeep, Chrysler, General Motors and other automakers in the US. Ford must compete globally to stay alive, but then I'm just assuming you all want jobs.

One thing though.

The U.S. market for automobiles is massive.

You cannot talk about how "measly" and insignificant the U.S. population is and then talk about international car companies in the same paragraph... While conveniently forgetting that their successes and failures are often dependent upon the U.S. consumer market.

Where are more BMW's sold? Germany? Or the U.S.?
[....]

As for everything else....
As usual, reading your posts is a difficult task because you say things I agree with... And then say something that is a complete contradiction of the reasonable thing you said before it.
Suffice it to say that the paragraph I nit-picked serves an example of how you make two points which are inherently incongruous with each other.
This seems to be routine for you.

[Traveler]

Sometimes it does sometimes it doesnt...
These two sentences indicate to me that you dont know what money actually is and what currency actually represents... Its not that liberals have been sold a lie... Its everyone who uses money that thinks its based on value and not debt... Money is just debt, loaned out on itself at interest... There are no conditions in the universe that could ever allow for it to be "paid back"... but that is not the point of money anyways... Its real value is its assigned worth for service and material goods... It makes trade easier/possible... that is all it does. People who make money by trading money are just parasites on the system.

What you describe is a relatively new system. The fact remains, take out a loan and do not pay it back then see how far your logic goes with the collectors. Do you really think that all the families that have been tossed into the streets because their homes have been taken back by the banks have any time for your explanation ? Fact is the fictitious money does get paid back in the form of hours labour and not the labour of those that print the funny money either.

[DontBeAfraid]

What you describe is a relatively new system. The fact remains, take out a loan and do not pay it back then see how far your logic goes with the collectors.

I didnt say it had no inherent value(because debt does), I said it can never be paid back completely... In our system MANY must lose their homes.

[Jake99]

Of course the economy is on the downswing, you are using a system that will only produce bad things that get worse by the second. If you listen to me I will show you how easy it is to save everyone and restore, maintain and improve our environment by the second. The prideful will someday wake up to what they are endorsing from a common sense point of view that I am suggesting. You cannot make chicken soup out of chicken shit no matter who manages the system of evildoers that you are supporting.

[Traveler]

You cannot make chicken soup out of chicken shit no matter who manages the system of evildoers that you are supporting.

Thats about the most truthful thing I've read on here all day

[Jake99]

Thats about the most truthful thing I've read on here all day

That is the same determination that the Bible is trying to teach mankind. Its also been my opinion based upon logic and experience which is why I try so hard to wake mankind up and change the way they do business.

I think it was Abe Lincoln who stated that he feared the bankers more than the Confederates and rightfully so.