Let's get a few things straight...

[MetalMilitia]

The "main" Justification for the war was that we were directly (somehow) THREATENED by Iraq's WMD's. Don't give me any "human rights" rhetoric, or we'd be in Sudan or Africa providing humanitarian aid. We went in as an invading force, not a liberating, democracy spreading force. Turns out Iraq had no WMD's. That one fact ALONE makes this war, in retrospect, crooked from day 1. Months and months of corporate media, speaking on behalf of the administration... months and months of "MUSHROOM CLOUD USA" and "UNMANNED DRONES" - and it turns out it was all BS.

Here's a history lesson, we created the "brutal" man that was Saddam Hussein. That was never recognized by the Bush administration - and many of the same people who gave him money, weapons, and even smiling handshakes, (RUMMY) are the SAME people who then provided intel and support for this war. Talk about "creating the enemy your need". The fact that Saddam is a former US asset, and was installed with US support takes it one step deeper. What do we do? We bury the past, and ignore the fact that we gave him funding and weapons for years and years before 2003... all the way up through the early 1980's.

Ignoring the lies, and onto the invasion... Not enough troops were committed to be successful by any meaning of the term. That endangers both our troops, and the innocent Iraqis. When we first invaded, (not liberated) priceless relics from museums and historical sites were looted - history lost forever. Don't even get me started on how the troops were not properly equipped from the word go. We send em in... THEN worry about armor and equipment? Then later we have our officials crack jokes about it? F*** that. Maybe we should let Rumsfeld tear around in a jeep that lacks armor, let him run around with an inadequate flak jacket. See how he likes it.

How can we forget bush declaring victory in his dress-up flight suit in May of 2003? He then goes on to tell the insurgents "Bring it on". Well guess what, they did. 1429 killed since the war began (3/19/03). 1292 since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) Bring it on indeed.

Iraqis aren't stupid - most KNOW this election is a fraud. (Just look at the US 2004 elections) There may be a small percentage who don't think it's a crock and then a few more who know it is, but hope for the best anyway - but most of them see it for what it really is. They know an occupation when they see it and so would you if the situation were reversed. They didn't ask for all of this. They didn't ask for 100,000 of their friends, family, and relatives to be killed in airstrikes and "collateral damage" attacks. I know most are happy Saddam is gone, but look how it's been replaced. We are now the ones raiding homes, abusing detainees (physically and sexually) and killing civilians at a rate of 1 september 11th (which they had nothing to do with) every few months.

In my... honest.... opinion, You cannot spread freedom and democracy like this - even more so with m-14's and raids on homes. Voting does not equal democracy, the Palestinians just voted - does that make them a democracy? Why don't we take a look at the word "freedom" and what it means. Among the definitions of "freedom" to be found in Webster's Dictionary that might apply to a nation-state are: "1. state of being at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint. 2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc. 3. power of determining one's own action: freedom of choice. 4. the power to make one's own choices or decisions without constraint from within or without; autonomy; self-determination. 5. civil liberty, as opposed to subjection to an arbitrary or despotic government. 6. political or national independence."

Does it seem like what we're doing in Iraq is spreading freedom to you?

I had another question : They had "millions of voters" in just a few hours right? Then im sure they had to stand in line for 8 hours like some places in the US.

Were there any reports, in war-torn hellish Iraq, where there was a line of Iraqi citizens, having to wait 6 to 8 hours to vote like in the democratic America? Last night, on CNN, they had two reporters at polling stations. One was in Basra, and the other in the Kurdish northern region. The reporter in Basra nearly let out a laugh when asked about the turnout. The elections officials were still a noshow over an hour after the polls opened. Some places never DID open.

In the North the Kurds were voting like crazy. I'd bet this is where turnout was highest - and how they somehow got the ridiculous assumption that 60% voted... But the rest of Iraq seems to be basically a noshow. How is anybody supposed to believe that in a country where the electricity works only a few hours a day - and where they vote by putting paper ballots into big plastic boxes, anyone could possibly have this data so quickly? It just smells funny.

But METAL... THEY VOTED TODAY! That means it's MISSON ACCOMPLISHED! BUSH WINS!!!

That's great... Our boys can come home, this time not in a publicly hidden flag-draped box. No more US casualties, no more suicide bombs, no more IED's taking the limbs of brave American soldiers.

George Bush would love to peg this election is a flawless success, and make everyone forget the perpetuated lies and deceptions that led us to the country in the first place. He would have you forget the month and months leading up, when he ignored the international community and went in gung ho. He would have you forget the 15,000+ civilian deaths that have resulted by our military action. He would have you forget the record debt we have from funding his ill-advised war - money we could have spent on hundry children, tsunami relief, or better healthcare in our own country.

I won't forget.

[substand]

The "main" Justification for the war was that we were directly (somehow) THREATENED by Iraq's WMD's. Don't give me any "human rights" rhetoric, or we'd be in Sudan or Africa providing humanitarian aid. We went in as an invading force, not a liberating, democracy spreading force. Turns out Iraq had no WMD's. That one fact ALONE makes this war, in retrospect, crooked from day 1. Months and months of corporate media, speaking on behalf of the administration... months and months of "MUSHROOM CLOUD USA" and "UNMANNED DRONES" - and it turns out it was all BS.

As much as you feel the need to convince yourself and others that this war was only about WMD, in order to downplay the positives that are coming out of it and call it a quagmire, you simply are not correct. Yes, you said "'main' justification," followed up with "dont give me any 'human rights' rhetoric." You can't ignore, as you antiwarriors often do, that there were MANY reasons leading up to war with Iraq, none of which alone would have been enough. You can't say "why not iran, why not north korea, why not sudan or liberia or haiti" and use it as an excuse to leave Iraq alone.

1) you would be bitching about us in those other countries too, if we had decided to help.
2) There were many many years of non-war solutions to resolve the differences in the forefront of public view with iraq. This provided political capital as well as a non-rush to war. This situation simply did not exist for any of the other countries you use in your list of "why nots."
3) everyone of any note thought they were working on wmd.
4) they were in violation of the terms that ended the first war with them in the first place, regardless of WMD.
5) not somehow directly threadted by iraq's wmds- we were told many times over we had to act "now," BEFORE Iraq became a threat. So I don't know where you are getting that from
6) evil dictator
7) support for terrorism
8) a population who we had recently seen rise up against thier evil dictator

no other state you mention had all of these ingredients prior to the war. the choice of Iraq was clearly the only choice to make among the ones you ask us to. And about the "humanitarian rhetoric"- our military are in Aftica and Haiti and Bosnia and Indonesia as "humanitarian" workers... so its evidently something we do quite often with our military.

Here's a history lesson, we created the "brutal" man that was Saddam Hussein.

Not much of a history lesson. We did not create Hussein. We used him as an enemy of our enemy and gave him weapons. He was in the right place at the right time to strike against the terrorist Iranians, whom he didn't like anyway.

Not enough troops were committed to be successful by any meaning of the term.

I can see the wisdom in waiting a couple of months to "properly" equip troops. However, I don't see how this is "unsuccessful" at all. We roll over the conventional army in a matter of weeks, they convert to guerrilla fighters (in addition to other terrorists coming in) and we are fighting them. We have very few dead for such a large scale operation. They had a successful and mostly violence free election today. Progress is being made. In war, people die, including soldiers. You and others seem to expect that we can pinpoint everything and attack solely from our armchairs hitting the A button on the Xbox controller and pulling the trigger and no one but the enemy can be hit, and thus no one but the enemy will die.

How can we forget bush declaring victory in his dress-up flight suit in May of 2003? He then goes on to tell the insurgents "Bring it on". Well guess what, they did. 1429 killed since the war began (3/19/03). 1292 since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) Bring it on indeed.

I don't know how many times I need to say this, but clearly the mission accomplished refered to one part of the overall war- that of ousting saddam. That same day Bush said it was not yet over. Of course we should lament the loss of our soldiers, but it appears to me you are using them purely as propaghanda- so lets leave now and let thier loss be for nothing.

Iraqis aren't stupid - most KNOW this election is a fraud. (Just look at the US 2004 elections) There may be a small percentage who don't think it's a crock and then a few more who know it is, but hope for the best anyway - but most of them see it for what it really is. They know an occupation when they see it and so would you if the situation were reversed.

I don't think you know "most Iraqis" very well. Clearly many were jubilant. If the observational predictions today are any indication- most Iraqis voted. Why vote if you beleive its a sham? 2 yrs ago they were forced to vote- on premarked ballots where saddam was the only candidate. Most Iraqis are not fighting this "occupation" either. This election gives us the delegates to an Iraqi Constitutional Convention. 7-8 months from now they will have written a constitution, in which the PEOPLE will get to vote for or against. then they will have the rules of thier new government, and then will elect one, over and over again throughout the years.

[DonkeyPunch]

I had another question : They had "millions of voters" in just a few hours right? Then im sure they had to stand in line for 8 hours like some places in the US.

Were there any reports, in war-torn hellish Iraq, where there was a line of Iraqi citizens, having to wait 6 to 8 hours to vote like in the democratic America?

http://www.foxnews.com/photo_essay/0,3927,287:1,00.html

[MetalMilitia]

Wonder how long it would take if all the people were getting on a plane...

Seriously though, if the US isn't tampering with the vote - that's fine by me. We got their government in the works, lets ease the US troops outta harms way. Hell, I'm happy for the Iraqis that will gain "freedom" from this...

No more "30 killed in hellicopter crash" for the US.

Go back Sam, can you honestly tell me, that if the weapons scare had never existed, that the population would have agreed with Bush to invade? Had the population not been scared by the "mushroom cloud" and "45 minute strike" comments, do you think they would have followed so blindly?

Not much of a history lesson. We did not create Hussein. We used him as an enemy of our enemy and gave him weapons. He was in the right place at the right time to strike against the terrorist Iranians, whom he didn't like anyway.

So at the time, you woulda walked up and shook his hand... and shot him a smile? Gotcha. I'm simply saying, that at the time - we helped fund this man, and gave him weapons, regardless of the cirumstances - and put him in control.

That same day Bush said it was not yet over

Of course it's not over. Bush has a whole plan for that "neighborhood" of the world. How many lives will it take to liberate all those people.

We need to get it out of our heads. American values aren't world wide values, and we are not the world's police. You have the rich elite war hawks sitting back making decisions that get thousands killed, and then to top it off the public is mislead and even lied to about it. They "hate our freedom"... no, they don't "hate our freedom" they hate our middle east policy and the fact that we can kill thousands more civilians than died in 9/11, and dismiss it as collateral damage.

[hoyeru!]

oh gosh so you are "helping" them?? Is that what you call the 100,000 killed and unknown number of meimed iraqies? Shades of 1984 hey? up is down and down is up, bad is good, good is bad and so on. I see, I get it NOW. And why pray tell the majority of the world deson't think you are helping the Iraqies and is against USA being in Iraq the first place?
I WISH you would put your money where your mouth is and DO help countries such as Sudan and others where civil wars have been killing hundreds of million of citizens for years and years. Yet you run to "help" a country that has tons of oil. Whatta coincidence ey? A helpless coubntry weaked by a decade old sanctions, easy pickings. FYI, I did NOT believe for a second Iraq had weapons of mass distractions err distraction, sorry cant type that word right and I millions others didn't.
Enough said.

[LGM]

Well they sure told you, Metal. I can tell that Sammy is a constitutional scholar right off the bat. And the other guy posted a link from Fox News. What more do you need? If I were you, I wouldn't mess with these two heavyweights. They have you cold. Besides, it never pays to argue with the reality challenged, they don't know jack, but are always right. Not to mention you might catch something.

[MetalMilitia]

Heh - Substnad (Sam) is a friend o Mine so we don't get hard feelings.

I play the WMD card cause it's the ONLY THING you saw for news in the months leading up to the invasion. There was no talk of "spreading democracy" - everyone (FOX news buffs especially) were so hell bent on pointing out the fact that we "could" be attacked they didn't stop to question anything. Fear is a powerful motive - scare people enough, and they'll listen to whatever you propose.

[DonkeyPunch]

Well they sure told you, Metal. I can tell that Sammy is a constitutional scholar right off the bat. And the other guy posted a link from Fox News. What more do you need? If I were you, I wouldn't mess with these two heavyweights. They have you cold. Besides, it never pays to argue with the reality challenged, they don't know jack, but are always right. Not to mention you might catch something.

The link I posted is to a photograph of a long line of voters. Did you look at it?

There's plenty of other photographs demonstrating high voter turnout on other news sites for you to look at if photographs on Fox News offend you for some reason.

[smile]

hi

my name is amin and i am a young muslim from the UK. i believe the self proclaimed "leaders of the free world" and "protectors of freedom" went to war on the basis of a lie. in the build up to the war all i heard from the "free press" was wmd, wmd and more wmd. i didnt here nuthin abt liberation and terror. it was only after no weapons were found and the "elite" forces of saddam crumbled and fled the field that the liberation of iraq and the introduction of democracy became a priority.

the war in iraq was opposed by most the world. the coalition of the willing was made up of countries that didnt have any armed forces or weapons (costa rica, nicaragua etc). then bush asks the mujahideen to bring it on! big mistake! guess wat? occupied people fighting for theyre country are not going to give up. if your demolishing theyre houses, killing theyre children and violating theyre women they are going to bring it! this war is fast become a struggle that will be won by the people who are willing to fight on no matter the number of lives lost. the USA will lose such a war just as they lost the war in vietnam. loads of iraqis and americans will die but the USA will lose such a war.

why do americans think that everyone in the world should share theyre beliefs, values and priorities? why should everyone see the world the same as the americans? why should people want to lead an american life and live the american dream?

the american way of life is not the best way of life. if it was then there would be no poor people in the US, there would be no murder in the US, there would be no racism in the US and so on.

but there is all of this in the US.

so why cant the US leave the world to develop theyre own way of life? yes fair enough the US has some responsibility with regard to peace keeping as it is the strongest country in the world. however all such actions should be carried out under the auspices of international organisations such as the UN.

Just as an addition wat kind of election is it when the people dont know who they are voting for or where the polling stations are until the day of the vote? do the people of iraq even know wat each candidate stands for?

thats all for now.

take care

amin

[midnightsonblaze]

Amin,
That was a great post you just wrote and I commend you for that....Point is is that the US has more sinister plans, and in that plan they have is World Domination. "Democracy" and the spreading of that, is just a mask for the real problem at hand, and any people that listen to the lies of their corrupt US leaders, are just going along with that ugly plan. IT's not ever going to stop unless people stand up and stop it. Problem is.....and I fear it, is that the "Good guys", have already lost.....

Later and take care.....

[smile]

Amin,
That was a great post you just wrote and I commend you for that....Point is is that the US has more sinister plans, and in that plan they have is World Domination. "Democracy" and the spreading of that, is just a mask for the real problem at hand, and any people that listen to the lies of their corrupt US leaders, are just going along with that ugly plan. IT's not ever going to stop unless people stand up and stop it. Problem is.....and I fear it, is that the "Good guys", have already lost.....

Later and take care.....

hi

i was trying to be as rational as possible without bringing in conspiracy theories. the US has been in the business of manipulating governments all around the world since its creation and has murdered to achieve its aims. its blanket control over the media means that only news they want is reported. independent stations like al jazeera are bombed, blocked or forced to leave scenes by puppet governments (allawi in iraq).

if that is democracy i want none of it.

i am a muslim and i live for the day when muslims unite under one banner. i do not wish for the muslims to become an avenging force that takes over the world. i wish for the muslims to become a single entity so that they can protect themselves better. i look around the world today what do i see? muslims dying in palestine, iraq, chechnya, africa, kashmir, china. all over the world muslims die every day but there is noone to protect them. all the leaders of these countries worry about is money and corporate profits. i just wish for a day when there is a single body with the full wieght of the worlds muslim population behind it to represent it in world politics.

as i said i dont want muslims to become alienated from the rest of the world. i live in england and i love my country and my home. i am proud to say that in england though there are very right wing people the majority of people are totally sane and only wish to live in peace with theyre neighbours. for the muslims to be strong we need to be friends with the world not enemies or just "partners" in trade.

if the world was changed today i would wish for leaders to look after people first and money second. millions die every year for reasons that could be prevented if enough money was pumped in. take aids as an example or third world debt or why not illegal wars!

i'm sorry for the babble and i hope i havent scared anyone away thinkin im a "terrorist". i am not a terrorist just a person who wishes to see his people safe and secure in the world.

i would not consider fighting to achieve this aim. BUT if do believe that if the USA continues to attack muslim countries then the mujahideen have every right under any law to fight them. the USA cannot expect the world to roll over for them when they want them to.

ive heard people say that the last thing a man loses is his pride. people fight very hard for theyre pride. the USA didnt learn this in Vietnam and are having to be taught again by the Iraqis

amin

[DonkeyPunch]

Are there any threads on this forum that don't dissolve into incoherent conspiracy theories?

[BigPheces]

This is something that has always bothered me with arguements like these. In no way am I trying to be confrontational or disrespectful here so please keep that in mind.

Who cares if you're a Muslim? Who cares if I'm a Jew? Why should it matter at all? Who cares what color my skin is? My favorite color is blue, does that make me different than someone who likes red more? Everyone is different, no matter how similar they think they are.

I hate what my country (USA) is doing in the world at large on the whole and I do what I can to help, but until the global mindset of separation by borders and beliefs changes, your dreams will stay just that, dreams. I believe that people will never be able to agree on one way of life, all we can hope for is for people to agree to disagree and live with one another. I take people for who they are, not what they look like or believe in.

Sorry, after all that nice touchy feely stuff, I'm going to go kick something.....

[smile]

ok my dreams may be dreams but its something for muslims to aim for.

as for conspiracy theories i dont think the deaths of countless human beings can be descrived as a conspiracy theory.

my statements were something i would wish for my people as a whole.

i live in a multicultural society and i totally agree with your statement that we shoudl all live with people as they are. but i also believe that all people should have a voice that is heard be they muslim, jewish, black or white it doesnt matter.

i also believe that a world in which everyone agrees in one faith is a long way off but in its place i would look for understanding. i wouldnt want the world to follow the american example of make up bullcrap, bomb a country and then make up more bullcrap.

i care that i am a muslim and that is all that matters. everyone may be different but we are all humans and we only have the one planet so we have to live together. the current world order isnt going to allow this anytime soon.

people have to put human lifes before money and power.

[BigPheces]

I agree with you on all but one point which was the reason for my previous post.

my statements were something i would wish for my people as a whole

This is what I was trying to get across. Why are they your people? There are many people who believe exactly as I do on many issues, yet I can't stand to be around them, and also there are those who take my beliefs as sacrilage who I enjoy time with. It's the segregationalist thinking of a national, religious, or idealogic identity as opposed to personal identity as a part of a diverse whole that I was trying to point out.

I in no way label you as a terrorist or anything else, you could be a great person, but your thinking (based on inferances from your posts) still seem to show that you believe yourself and your peers as being different from other people, to the point of separating yourself from them, all because of an idea. Of course there are some ideas that are so digusting to a person that they are forced to get clear of them, but thats on a person by person basis, and should not be a blanket statement over a religion or ethnicity.

So this long winded mess of a post is basically trying to say that I don't see the need for a ruling body based upon one shared idealogy to the exclusion of all others. This is how wars are started - "My ideas are different from yours and I'm going to make you think my way." Just look at Bush and his "American Morality" stance which brought him his re-election and how it effects the rest of the world. Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, and all others will continue to die because of misunderstandings that cannot be contested until a person dies in the first place. You want religious wars to end? Wish for a council of ALL religions (which will likely NEVER happen) and have them bond together for the betterment of the world and its people. Then all people will have to fight about is money...

[daevilempire]

i think its a bad day man

look the fuckin usa isnt the only country that has bombed innocent civilians, if ya think the uk hasnt killed a few innocents then pull ya head from ya butt,

wasnt noone complaining when we went to world war 2 and helped out
wasnt noone complaining during desert storm and shit

but as ppl we tend to look at the negativity in this world and forget what the states will do for them in a positive manner, food, rebuild the city, education,etc etc etc

pull your headfrom ya butts, the us govt is as crooked as any govt in the world but nothing compares to the evil which is the EU

[lotrfan55345]

look the fuckin usa isnt the only country that has bombed innocent civilians, if ya think the uk hasnt killed a few innocents then pull ya head from ya butt,

Yes the UK has tortured innoccent civilians, and there are protests in the UK about that. But to date, I don't think any Dutch/Japanese/French/etc soldiers have had prisoner abuse allegations.

wasnt noone complaining when we went to world war 2 and helped out
wasnt noone complaining during desert storm and shit

Those two conflicts weren't based of (false) assumptions. World War 2... it was obvious that bad stuff was going on... as troops were actually destroying buildings and killing innocent civilians. Same with Desert Storm.

ull your headfrom ya butts, the us govt is as crooked as any govt in the world but nothing compares to the evil which is the EU

What justifies this "evil"?

but as ppl we tend to look at the negativity in this world and forget what the states will do for them in a positive manner, food, rebuild the city, education,etc etc etc

I don't consider rebuilding after what you've damaged "positive". It is more negative (imo) as the people had to deal with the period where the infastructure or whatnot was destroyed.

[substand]

Go back Sam, can you honestly tell me, that if the weapons scare had never existed, that the population would have agreed with Bush to invade?

No, I can't honestly tell you that without the weapons scare there would have been support. I think that all of the ingredients were neccesary, and said so in the post.

there were MANY reasons leading up to war with Iraq, none of which alone would have been enough.

We got their government in the works, lets ease the US troops outta harms way.

I agree. We've always agreed on the fact that we should withdraw troops ASAP. I think we just differ on when it is possible. I think it would be ridiculous to leave right now, before we have rebuilt the infrastructure we destroyed, and before there is some more stability. We cannot simply leave them almost defenseless against terrorists.

So at the time, you woulda walked up and shook his hand... and shot him a smile?

I don't know that *I* would have, but I do know that politics often leads to strange bedfellows, and I can understand why.

American values aren't world wide values, and we are not the world's police.

The only value we are trying to spread to my knowledge is choice. Who doesn't like choice? The only person who dislikes choice is when someone chooses to do something he doesn't like. And let me stop you all before you start- don't go asinine with the 'choice' thing. The problem is that we ARE the world's police. I'd like to change that as much as you. Iraq, though, was not a policing action.

they hate our middle east policy and the fact that we can kill thousands more civilians than died in 9/11, and dismiss it as collateral damage.

well they hate that too. Prior to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, our Middle East policy was to let dictators stand, and at times, prop them up. Now it is the exact opposite, so perhaps they will like this one.

oh gosh so you are "helping" them?? Is that what you call the 100,000 killed and unknown number of meimed iraqies? Shades of 1984 hey?

Don't be foolish. Obviously we lament the loss of innocent life. We are helping the population as a whole, minus the Ba'athists.

And why pray tell the majority of the world deson't think you are helping the Iraqies and is against USA being in Iraq the first place?

Because the rest of the world is apparently stupid. Does the rest of the world decide whether we are helping Iraqis or do Iraqis decide?

I WISH you would put your money where your mouth is and DO help countries such as Sudan and others where civil wars have been killing hundreds of million of citizens for years and years.

Recently, I suppose we went to Haiti to steal the bananas, Bosnia to enslave the muslims, and Liberia to get monkeys for our zoos.

Yet you run to "help" a country that has tons of oil. Whatta coincidence ey? A helpless coubntry weaked by a decade old sanctions,

Its no coincidence that the US does best where its interests meet its values, and its no coincidence that you would choose to waste precious blood and treasure first on things you both beleive in and help you. This is called logic.

I can tell that Sammy is a constitutional scholar right off the bat.

Thanks.. where were we talking about the constitution though?

Besides, it never pays to argue with the reality challenged, they don't know jack, but are always right.

Somehow its looking like you must be talking about yourself... because you certainly can't point to anything I said as unreal... and you just completely looked foolish by assuming pictures of voting lines are unreal, or that because they were on fox news' website, that the person who posted them must be somehow stating his/her opinion on the matter and would be unopen to discussion.

I play the WMD card cause it's the ONLY THING you saw for news in the months leading up to the invasion.

Well, as I always tell you... I never played the WMD card before the war, because I didn't think we needed to, nor did I think it helped. Again, I guess I'm jaded on not remembering "only WMD" because I was pushing without it.

[substand]

French/etc soldiers

Of course they can't be allegedly doing something. Does such a thing exist?

[substand]

occupied people fighting for theyre country are not going to give up. if your demolishing theyre houses, killing theyre children and violating theyre women they are going to bring it!

I beleive it has been estimated that most of the fighting is being done by the ba'athists and foreigners, not by the iraqi population at large.

the american way of life is not the best way of life. if it was then there would be no poor people in the US, there would be no murder in the US, there would be no racism in the US and so on.

You seem to be confusing the "best" way of life with the "perfect" way of life.

so why cant the US leave the world to develop theyre own way of life?

Because sometimes other people developing their own way of life collides with our ability to live ours... just like when I got beat up at school.

hi my name is amin and i am a young muslim from the UK.

Welcome to the boards amin!

[Kohler]

I know most are happy Saddam is gone, but look how it's been replaced. We are now the ones raiding homes, abusing detainees (physically and sexually) and killing civilians at a rate of 1 september 11th (which they had nothing to do with) every few months.

Metal, do you have any links about US forces sexually abusing detainee's (not that I can put much into the media)? That is shocking news to me.

On a sidenote to Bigpheces. You live in staten island? I was up in long island the other day and came home with a big headache from the drive. lol I payed more on tolls (a little over $25) than I do on a full tank of gas. I can see why commutes take trains into the City.

it was stressful... i guess i'm just not used to it

[MetalMilitia]

Sexual tactics used to weaken detainees - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...ow/1002923.cms

Torture in Iraq still routine, report says - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6863916/

Shocking images revealed at Britain's 'Abu Ghraib trial' - http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...393637,00.html

The list goes on.

[smile]

i agree with you totally that until people can see beyond theyre different beliefs there will never be everlasting peace.

you say i see myself and my peers as being different from other people and that i want to separate myself from others. thats not wat i was tryin to get at with my post. all i hope for in THIS world is an organisation to fairly represent muslims on the international stage. i can see that this will not happen any time soon. i dont want muslims to close themselves of from the world. i believe the only way to bring about lasting peace is for people to talk and learn about other people. all i want is proper representation for my people.

i dont see muslims as different or more special or important than other people. but i am a muslim and you must understand my wish to better my people.

i dont want muslims to be segragated from the rest of the world but i do want muslims to have better representation on the international stage.

[BigPheces]

Got ya Smile, that makes sense, and hopefully the UN will open their eyes and see that without direct representation of ALL countries (is that even posible really? I'm not sure...) there can always be another "Coalition of the Willing" formed, despite the majority of the globe opposing their actions.

On a side note, the Iraqi elections seem to have gone decently well for all but the Shi'ites, even if most voters didn't know who they voted for or what their agendas were. Hopefully since 60%+ citizens voted, people will start to see the collective will of the Iraqi people to be self-goverened and work together to get foreign troops out of there. Though of course I could be being incredibly naieve and hopeful with my outlook of the "elections"...

[2cool4stats]

the only value we are trying to spread to my knowledge is choice.

That's extremely gullible. Oh well. It must be the "American Freedom" thing kicking in again.