Truth

[voxpopulisuxx]

Truth

The first postmodern, Pilate, aired the arrogant inquiry, "What is truth?" The answer was then given in the crucifixion of the Truth. Truth is not a set of rules to be obeyed, mysteries to be known or evidences to be mastered, but Christ, by whom we know and are known. Truth is not discovered, it is revealed in relationship to both the head and the heart. Therefore, Truth is not something merely known or proclaimed but Someone experienced, tasted and seen as the Psalmist says, by grace, faith and presence that not merely knows the Truth but loves Him.

Truth holds hands with mercy since we must humbly confess that Truth was a gift of God revealed to us by grace and believed by faith. A relationship with the Truth births humble mercy. Truth without humility has not taken root in the soil of the heart. Humility without Truth has not taken root in the soil of the head.

Truth comes from the Father through the Son and is revealed by the Spirit. It does not come solely by reason, evidence, experience, or tradition. Neither progress, science, technology, nor anything else, nor anyone tied to life under the sun, can unearth it.

Truth brings freedom. To be free is to gratefully live up to obligation. To be free is to be a slave who at last is bought by a master who loves him. To be free is to no longer be alone in exile, alienated and teary-eyed, wandering without an emotional kinship. Truth is everlasting and births within everlasting life to them who believe the true Truth.

Truth is the object. We are merely subjects to be studied by the Truth. Truth is not whom we study, it is before whom our wicked hearts are laid naked to consummate with grace and redemption. It is when we fall into the modern pit of pride and see Truth as the subject to be studied by our objective selves that we run the risk of building the tower of Babel in our mind. Only the Truth is objective and we are His subjective subjects.

Truth brings confrontation. Truth cannot tolerate sin, error or pride. Truth is a hammer that both builds and breaks.

Truth lives in the light. For this reason we both love and hate the Truth. We love it because He cleanses and renews us in His light. But, we also hate the Truth because in His light our sin and depravity is laid, unmasked and unexcused, to our shame, humility and redemption. In light of the Truth our darkness appears most black and vile and our redemption appears most gracious and amazing.

Truth causes us to worship. Truth bends our knee, bows our head and lifts our heart to sing to Him who is seeking worshippers. Truth that does not result in doxology is in the end a well-disguised idolatry that worships those things that God has said or done rather than who He is.

Truth brings courage in the face of opposition. The face of Truth is most persuasive to the fearful, frightened, finite friend of the Father. For better and for worse we are wed to the Truth, in sickness and health, until death do us part. In the raging sea of opposition and corrupting compromise it is the voice of Truth which again whispers, " . . .take courage, it is I, do not be afraid." And those who live not just by or for, but in the Truth, are a courageous people whose blood has fertilized fallow ground.

Truth makes a man appear mad. Only the man who knows the Truth is sane, all others are mad. However, it is the madman who stands alone in exile seeing and speaking the Truth. He is a threat to the lies, liars, and their father who is not in heaven and is therefore categorized, marginalized and trivialized by the truly mad majority. To stand in Truth is to often stand alone as, and with, the madman.

Truth is the way, truth and life. All else is not the way, and lies that lead to death. Truth is by definition the exclusive and narrow way. Truth has few friends, and fewer lovers, and still fewer children.

It is Truth which brings meaning to life, the beauty of redemption and forms a community. This truth comes by the Word of God and the Word of God. Together they form the secret. Truth is a person who tells a Truth story that begins before Genesis and concludes after Revelation. In knowing Him and His story, we know the Truth about all else and are keepers of His open secret story which is so big that it swallows all stories, including our own, as His.
Copyright © 2004 Kaleo Fellowship

[humanhybrid]

Truth is reletive in all matters of observation. a small but humble contribution good day!

[dutchie]

That's your truth, vox. Your point being...??

[voxpopulisuxx]

That's your truth, vox. Your point being...??

if every body gets to make their own truth then its not truth is it?
its opinion and fashion, and society cannot progress.

[Havoc Angel]

No human can grasp absolute Truth. We are limited to our perceptions, beliefs and observations. In order to grasp absolute Truth everything has to be known, a infinite amount of information is needed. I consider people that claim to have found the absolute Truth to be either foolish, ignorant, insane or indoctrinated or any combination of those attributes. Oh, and some people do this claim in order to manipulate and control other people.

All we as puny humans can do is trying to collect as many pieces of the puzzle that is truth and put them together where they fit together, creating a ever growing picture of how things really are. And even one single piece in the puzzle can change the meaning of the whole picture we already have. It's a dynamic process that will never end.

True is what you belief and what can stand against any serious considered doubt. Denial does not count, heh.

[voxpopulisuxx]

No human can grasp absolute Truth. We are limited to our perceptions, beliefs and observations. In order to grasp absolute Truth everything has to be known, a infinite amount of information is needed. I consider people that claim to have found the absolute Truth to be either foolish, ignorant, insane or indoctrinated or any combination of those attributes. Oh, and some people do this claim in order to manipulate and control other people.

All we as puny humans can do is trying to collect as many pieces of the puzzle that is truth and put them together where they fit together, creating a ever growing picture of how things really are. And even one single piece in the puzzle can change the meaning of the whole picture we already have. It's a dynamic process that will never end.

True is what you belief and what can stand against any serious considered doubt. Denial does not count, heh.

Are you absolutly sure what you said here is true? Is the statement>>>"No human can grasp absolute Truth." absolutely true? It sounded pretty absolutist to me?

[Havoc Angel]

It's what i belief. So it's true for me, heh. It's your joice to belief it or not. I am just a puny human myself, giving out some pieces of my own puzzle. If they fit take them, if not....*shrugs*

[voxpopulisuxx]

It's what i belief. So it's true for me, heh. It's your joice to belief it or not. I am just a puny human myself, giving out some pieces of my own puzzle. If they fit take them, if not....*shrugs*

question...is there such a thing as evil?

[Havoc Angel]

We define what is evil and what is not. Opinion on this is wide and varied. Usually anything that is doing harm to someone or something that you feel personally positively connected to is thought of as being evil or at least bad if it's only irritating. And anything that is beneficial is considered good. Many a cultural and/or philosophical dispute was held over what exactly is good and what is evil. I am sure anyone can come up with extreme enough examples of evil that it will be accepted by anyone (except maybe the most depraved individuals).
Evil as a external driving force does not really exist. That is part of spirituality that cannot be proven and as such is part of the personal system of belief.

[evilwill]

Evil is in the eye of the beholder... much like truth.

[voxpopulisuxx]

Evil is in the eye of the beholder... much like truth.

to follow your argument though....evil is recognised by all when something is extreamly evil (holocaust, rawanda etc)....and those who refuse to see said offense as evil are deemd evil themselves.
so what can one do to eliminate evil?

[dutchie]

Evil and Good are just subjective titles for the choices people make. Choices. In some tribes of New Guinea, until some decades ago it was considered normal to eat the brains and heart of a slain enemy, to gain his wit and strength. In ancient Egypt, girls of 8 or 9 years old were married to adult men. These people considered this to be normal practice. We shiver at the very thought.

"Evil" (quotes intended) as well as "Good" will be an integral part of mankind until the sun evaporates the planet.

[evilwill]

to follow your argument though....evil is recognised by all when something is extreamly evil (holocaust, rawanda etc)....and those who refuse to see said offense as evil are deemd evil themselves.
so what can one do to eliminate evil?

No, evil is a concept recognised by all yet applied differently. Do you think Hitler thought what he was doing was evil? Today, we do. Do you think the Spanish Inquisition were doing evil when they wiped out the Aztecs?

Evil is subjective and it depends on the morals/views of the beholder. One cannot eliminate evil because there is no such thing as a 'universal evil'.

[voxpopulisuxx]

No, evil is a concept recognised by all yet applied differently. Do you think Hitler thought what he was doing was evil? Today, we do. Do you think the Spanish Inquisition were doing evil when they wiped out the Aztecs?

Evil is subjective and it depends on the morals/views of the beholder. One cannot eliminate evil because there is no such thing as a 'universal evil'.

then it is you I submit who are intentionally blind, if you think the holocoust, and rwanda were only subjectivly evil....you have no standards whatsoever and In my opinion are not competent to make further assertions to me....on any subject....you and keebler elf can go hold hands.....

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

if you think the holocoust, and rwanda were only subjectivly evil...

EVERY evil is subjective, Vox. Like Havoc Angel said earlier, even extreme examples of evil are not seen as evil by "the most depraved individuals". In the case of the holocaust, Hitler and other depraved individuals such as holocaust deniers obviously don't see it for the evil that any moral person who values human life does. And in the case of Rwanda, the ones who committed those unthinkable atrocities quite obviously didn't consider their actions to be evil. Evilwill aptly put it into perspective with his point that "Evil is subjective and it depends on the morals/views of the beholder." The world is FAR from black and white as you seem to believe, Vox. This is one of the reasons why we all don't agree with eachother on this forum, let alone the world.

then it is you I submit who are intentionally blind, if you think the holocoust, and rwanda were only subjectivly evil....you have no standards whatsoever and In my opinion are not competent to make further assertions to me....on any subject...

I think that everybody that is reading this thread understands that evilwill, myself and pretty much everybody else here agrees that the holocaust and Rwanda were evil deeds committed by evil people. You're the one who is blind if you can't read what is obviously between the lines. You're WAY too judgmental as always...

you and keebler elf can go hold hands...

There's that judgment again. You obviously didn't read the letter to George W. Bush that Keeblergiant posted in the "gay/evil" thread (Best... e-mail... EVER) which elegantly reveals the ridiculously outdated and archaic teachings of the church, including the subject of gay marriage. But that's another thread. My point and the point of others here is that evil is indeed subjective. I feel pretty safe saying that most people reading this would consider selling someone into slavery as being decidedly evil, yet Exodus 21:7 sanctions this deed. I'm confused...

[voxpopulisuxx]

EVERY evil is subjective, Vox. Like Havoc Angel said earlier, even extreme examples of evil are not seen as evil by "the most depraved individuals". In the case of the holocaust, Hitler and other depraved individuals such as holocaust deniers obviously don't see it for the evil that any moral person who values human life does. And in the case of Rwanda, the ones who committed those unthinkable atrocities quite obviously didn't consider their actions to be evil. Evilwill aptly put it into perspective with his point that "Evil is subjective and it depends on the morals/views of the beholder." The world is FAR from black and white as you seem to believe, Vox. This is one of the reasons why we all don't agree with eachother on this forum, let alone the world.


I think that everybody that is reading this thread understands that evilwill, myself and pretty much everybody else here agrees that the holocaust and Rwanda were evil deeds committed by evil people. You're the one who is blind if you can't read what is obviously between the lines. You're WAY too judgmental as always...


There's that judgment again. You obviously didn't read the letter to George W. Bush that Keeblergiant posted in the "gay/evil" thread (Best... e-mail... EVER) which elegantly reveals the ridiculously outdated and archaic teachings of the church, including the subject of gay marriage. But that's another thread. My point and the point of others here is that evil is indeed subjective. I feel pretty safe saying that most people reading this would consider selling someone into slavery as being decidedly evil, yet Exodus 21:7 sanctions this deed. I'm confused...

as usual you apply an assumption that I should recognise, ie...you call me judgmental...and by calling me thus you are assuming I recognise judgmentalism is evil or at least wrong...if you do not belive in an objective standard ie a standard that both you and I define as "wrong or evil" then why do you bother? Of Course Judgmenatlism is wrong, it is wrong everywhere for everyone, the holocost was wrong/evil no matter who did or didnt recognise it as such.....so by your very actions...you offer proof to my position. You are right that there are gray areas amongst the differing species of evil,,,but there is no gray but pure black and white that evil does exist...if only to be recognised in the extreams....just because hitler didnt think gassing millions of people was evil doesnt mean it wasnt...in this case it is you who assume arrogence when you assert that things are only evil when YOU the individual define them as thus....as to the bush letter i read it and in fact found it very humerous and excellent in pointing out bushes hypocritical PROTESTANT version of the bible...Catholics on the other hand had long ago been able to distinguish between livitical law that was based specifically on Jewish historical society, and the Laws of Morality which are eternal, so dont try to trap me in that old canard, because I am not a BIBLE alone "christian", Catholics dont hold the bible out of its context (I know Ive stated this before and yet you persist?) and on a minor note...any slavery so called that was "sanctioned" by the bible refers to what I voluntarily am today...Indentured Servant....and millions of other Americans....we are indentured to our master the BANK, who holds our Mortgage on our home/credit...and we offer our servitude untill such a time as our Mortgage?credit debt is paid...this is the definition of Slavery that is condoned in the Bible (and if your smart enough to be an eye doctor your smart enough to know the difference between condone and encourage)
anything else?.....
oh yeah.....why a person would want to live in such a gray world is beyond me...when the difference between Light and darkness is like night and day....
Back to you my friend.....

[voxpopulisuxx]

ps the keebler elf holding hands comment was a not so veiled threat that IF...and i repeat this was an IF.... evil will persisted in holding an absolute contradition as truth....ie.."I am absolutly sure that humans cant comprehend absolutes"...then it would be q waste of time to continue and Iwas going to put him in the iggy bin with keebler elf.....but because of you I will retract that threat....out of respect...but it had nothing to do with "gays" so please no more on that impossible subject...not here in this thread any way.

back to you friend....

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

.....why a person would want to live in such a gray world is beyond me...when the difference between Light and darkness is like night and day...

I don't necessarily WANT to live in such a gray world. I've stated before that the world would be a much better place to live in if things WERE black and white. But you're living in a fantasy world by believing this. If the world is indeed black and white as you believe, then why is there so much crap going on in the world today? The answer is simple - it's NOT black and white.

but there is no gray but pure black and white that evil does exist...if only to be recognised in the extreams...

Yes, I agree that evil DOES exist. Nobody here is denying this. But as was pointed out by several people already, evil is subjective and this subjectivity is determined by an individual's or a culture's own self-determined morals along with other factors. But morality is the main factor and different people have different morals. That is, what some cultures believe to be evil is not necesarily evil to another culture. But yes, evil DOES exist, there's no disputing that.

...in this case it is you who assume arrogence when you assert that things are only evil when YOU the individual define them as thus...

On the contrary, I've never claimed to be someone who has the authority or the mandate to determine what is good or evil. THAT is the mandate of the LAW. And laws should be, and ARE, determined by the government and these laws change and evolve accordingly as society evolves. So much of what I consider to be evil is determined by modern law, not ancient Biblical texts. Along with society's laws I, and everybody not constrained by Biblical laws, use personal morals and ethics to guide my actions with regard to more gray areas that aren't necessarily covered by civil law. These personal morals are a basic freedom that everybody should have. Biblical laws tend to be strict and outdated, often irrelevant in today's society. Gay people are evil? I think I'll decide for MYSELF whether any of my gay friends are evil or not...

....as to the bush letter i read it and in fact found it very humerous and excellent in pointing out bushes hypocritical PROTESTANT version of the bible...

I'm glad that you've got a sense of humor! I'll give you the Protestant thing...

the Laws of Morality which are eternal

This is simply wrong on so many levels. EVERYTHING has changed so dramatically over the centuries, especially during the past couple of decades. Everything, that is, except for the Biblical laws of morality. As society changes, moralities change. Biblical law has been gradually becoming more and more irrelevant in our constantly evolving society and, if it's not careful, may soon find itself in danger of becoming obsolete...

...any slavery so called that was "sanctioned" by the bible refers to what I voluntarily am today...Indentured Servant....and millions of other Americans....we are indentured to our master the BANK, who holds our Mortgage on our home/credit...and we offer our servitude untill such a time as our Mortgage?credit debt is paid...this is the definition of Slavery that is condoned in the Bible

Hey, I guess that I'M an indentured servant too! I will RELUCTANTLY accept your loose explanation of "slavery", but I feel that I have to say that it's veerrry suspect...

(and if your smart enough to be an eye doctor your smart enough to know the difference between condone and encourage)

You guys really have to stop using my education against me! Education is actually a GOOD thing, so it actually works in my FAVOR. It's not really an effective stab at me because it doesn't make sense to so-called "insult" me with my own education credentials. I find this quite amusing actually. 40oz tried unsuccessfully to use this tactic against me and I pimp-slapped him back under the rock that he crawled out from under. You're a much more worthy adversary, however, and I dig that.

EDIT: For the record, I thought that I should mention that I DON'T have a PhD. It was really funny to string along 40oz this way and see if he would figure that out for himself! As expected, he didn't. Somebody else had to explain it to him that eye doctors don't necessarily have to have a PhD. Go back and read the posts and you'll see that I NEVER said that I have a PhD! Pretty funny stuff! By the way, my wife DOES have a PhD in biology and she is one smart lady.

anything else?...

Nope. Have a good one...

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

ps the keebler elf holding hands comment was a not so veiled threat that IF...and i repeat this was an IF.... evil will persisted in holding an absolute contradition as truth....ie.."I am absolutly sure that humans cant comprehend absolutes"...then it would be q waste of time to continue and Iwas going to put him in the iggy bin with keebler elf.....but because of you I will retract that threat....out of respect...but it had nothing to do with "gays" so please no more on that impossible subject...not here in this thread any way.

Ha ha! All right. I thought that you were referring back to the "gay/evil" thread. No harm done...

[voxpopulisuxx]

I don't necessarily WANT to live in such a gray world. I've stated before that the world would be a much better place to live in if things WERE black and white. But you're living in a fantasy world by believing this. If the world is indeed black and white as you believe, then why is there so much crap going on in the world today? The answer is simple - it's NOT black and white.


Yes, I agree that evil DOES exist. Nobody here is denying this. But as was pointed out by several people already, evil is subjective and this subjectivity is determined by an individual's or a culture's own self-determined morals along with other factors. But morality is the main factor and different people have different morals. That is, what some cultures believe to be evil is not necesarily evil to another culture. But yes, evil DOES exist, there's no disputing that.


On the contrary, I've never claimed to be someone who has the authority or the mandate to determine what is good or evil. THAT is the mandate of the LAW. And laws should be, and ARE, determined by the government and these laws change and evolve accordingly as society evolves. So much of what I consider to be evil is determined by modern law, not ancient Biblical texts. Along with society's laws I, and everybody not constrained by Biblical laws, use personal morals and ethics to guide my actions with regard to more gray areas that aren't necessarily covered by civil law. These personal morals are a basic freedom that everybody should have. Biblical laws tend to be strict and outdated, often irrelevant in today's society. Gay people are evil? I think I'll decide for MYSELF whether any of my gay friends are evil or not...


I'm glad that you've got a sense of humor! I'll give you the Protestant thing...


This is simply wrong on so many levels. EVERYTHING has changed so dramatically over the centuries, especially during the past couple of decades. Everything, that is, except for the Biblical laws of morality. As society changes, moralities change. Biblical law has been gradually becoming more and more irrelevant in our constantly evolving society and, if it's not careful, may soon find itself in danger of becoming obsolete...


Hey, I guess that I'M an indentured servant too! I will RELUCTANTLY accept your loose explanation of "slavery", but I feel that I have to say that it's veerrry suspect...


You guys really have to stop using my education against me! Education is actually a GOOD thing, so it actually works in my FAVOR. It's not really an effective stab at me because it doesn't make sense to so-called "insult" me with my own education credentials. I find this quite amusing actually. 40oz tried unsuccessfully to use this tactic against me and I pimp-slapped him back under the rock that he crawled out from under. You're a much more worthy adversary, however, and I dig that.

EDIT: For the record, I thought that I should mention that I DON'T have a PhD. It was really funny to string along 40oz this way and see if he would figure that out for himself! As expected, he didn't. Somebody else had to explain it to him that eye doctors don't necessarily have to have a PhD. Go back and read the posts and you'll see that I NEVER said that I have a PhD! Pretty funny stuff! By the way, my wife DOES have a PhD in biology and she is one smart lady.


Nope. Have a good one...

there is no culture or society in the world that would allow that what happened in the holocost or stalins genocides, etc...were anything but evil...and if they dont they must suspend the LAWS OF NATURE to do it(as hitler Germany did, ussr, and China and North Korea still do..........) Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it and as one of my favorite saint Athanasius says...Athanasius contra Mundum If the world gos against the truth, Then Athanasius goes against the world

as to "your an eye doctor comment" it was not meant as an insult...(techy techy) I think 40 oz rubbed you raw....I simply was hoping "out loud" that I wouldnt have to spend 3 posts arguing the difference between condone and encourage....

[dutchie]

Did you forget about Pol Pot's "killing fields"!?? That was long AFTER the holocaust... 3,000,000 deaths...

there is no culture or society in the world that would allow that what happened in the holocost or stalins genocides...

The USA funded and supported Pol Pot almost up to 1980...
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/pot.htm

[voxpopulisuxx]

Did you forget about Pol Pot's "killing fields"!?? That was long AFTER the holocaust... 3,000,000 deaths...



The USA funded and supported Pol Pot almost up to 1980...
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/pot.htm

you didnt finish my quote!..."there is no culture or society in the world that would allow that what happened in the holocost or stalins genocides, etc...were anything but evil...and if they dont they must suspend the LAWS OF NATURE to do it"
And was it wrong for the US to support Pol Pot? of course it was before and after the slaughter....and I didnt mention it because were I to list all the genocides and democides of the 20-21st century the thread would be an encylopedia....

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

there is no culture or society in the world that would allow that what happened in the holocost or stalins genocides, etc...were anything but evil...

Of course, I think that everybody here agrees with that statement. Historically, great evils such as the ones that people have already mentioned here are attributed to INDIVIDUALS or small groups of people who have warped moralities and a severe lack of respect for human life. Dutchie's reference confirms that this was the case with Pol Pot in Cambodia as can be seen when you read quotes from him such as the following which were said afte his capture:

"Look at me now. Do you think ... am I a violent person? No. So, as far as my conscience and my mission were concerned, there was no problem."

"For the love of the nation and the people it was the right thing to do but in the course of our actions we made mistakes."

These are the words of a man who doesn't think that what he did was evil. Thus, evil is subjective in the eyes of the individual. The vast majority of people in this world fortunately have a strong sense of morality and thus the possibility that an entire society or culture might collectively commit inhuman acts like the ones by Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin et al is a remote one. But since individuals have individual moralities, evil will always exist in our society.

Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it

Not necessarily. Just like evil is a subjective concept, so is the concept of what is right and wrong. For example, in western culture we look at how Islamic women dress and how badly they are treated by Islamic men and we think that this is wrong even though everybody is doing it. However, Islamic society doesn't consider anything wrong about this at all.

as to "your an eye doctor comment" it was not meant as an insult...(techy techy) I think 40 oz rubbed you raw....I simply was hoping "out loud" that I wouldnt have to spend 3 posts arguing the difference between condone and encourage...

Heh, I figured that. You were nowhere near as condescending as 40oz. I wasn't really upset at the comment, it was more of an opportunity to reveal that I didn't actually have a PhD like 40oz thought. No offense taken...

I think that what dutchie is trying to point out is that, despite numerous examples of evil deeds such as genocide that have happened in the past, such horrific deeds continue to be perpetrated to this day. Thus, even with examples of evil and wrongness to learn from, individuals still come along who don't learn from the horrors of the past and don't consider their actions to be evil or wrong.

[voxpopulisuxx]

the only thing people learn from history is that people dont learn anything from history

[dutchie]

I think that what dutchie is trying to point out is that, despite numerous examples of evil deeds such as genocide that have happened in the past, such horrific deeds continue to be perpetrated to this day. Thus, even with examples of evil and wrongness to learn from, individuals still come along who don't learn from the horrors of the past and don't consider their actions to be evil or wrong.

Damn right I was...