Religion of Arda.. Any questions?!?

[dutchie]

The entirety of existence in which all worlds, stars and galaxies were made is called Eä ("let these things be"). There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought...
Arda was created by Ilúvatar, through the song and music of the Ainur. After the creation of Arda, many of the Ainur descended into it to guide and order its growth; of these there were fifteen more powerful than the rest. Fourteen of these great Ainur became the Valar, or Powers of Arda. The fifteenth, Melkor, turned aside from that path and became the first Dark Lord. The many lesser Ainur that accompanied the Valar into Arda are known as Maiar.
Each of the Maiar was attached to the 'people' of a particular Vala. So, for example, the Maia Ossë, as a spirit of the sea, belonged to the people of Ulmo, while Curumo, the Maia who came to Middle-earth as Saruman, belonged to the people of Aulë the Smith.

In the Third Age, there were still Maiar in physical form to be found in Middle-earth. The most important of these were Saruman, Sauron (originally also of Aulë's people), and Olórin, known as Gandalf, who belonged to the people of Manwë and Varda.


This much about the creation of Middle Earth. IF anyone has any questions concerning anything that took place in the 3rd Era (the time frame of the LOTR) or about Ilúvatar, the one and only God of Eä - I'd be happy to answer them. I wholeheartedly invite B.Nye the Uruk-Hai to join in with the research and answering of your questions.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

I wholeheartedly invite B.Nye the Uruk-Hai to join in with the research and answering of your questions.

AWESOME!!! Thank you, dutchie, for the invitation! Although I am not as well versed in the religion of Arda as I am in Jedianity, I will do my best to complement whatever knowledge that you impart unto us with your wisdom. Praise Ilúvatar!

[Skippy]

The entirety of existence in which all worlds, stars and galaxies were made is called Eä ("let these things be").

Oh great, another fictional religion that comes complete action figures, a box set and lost more merchandising. Change the names and it sounds like you have got mostly Greek mythology with a tiny sprinkle of Judaism.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Oh great, another fictional religion that comes complete action figures, a box set and lost more merchandising. Change the names and it sounds like you have got mostly Greek mythology with a tiny sprinkle of Judaism.

2/3 of the world's population regards Christianity with the same ridicule and disgust that you regard all other religions, including Jedianity and Arda.

[Skippy]

2/3 of the world's population regards Christianity with the same ridicule and disgust that you regard all other religions, including Jedianity and Arda.

Care to support that? Oh wait...of course you can't because you pulled that out of your arse. 2/3 of the world's population would pretty much be all the Christians and the Muslims...oh...by the way, Christians are respected by Muslims as People of the Book.

So that leaves us with the Taoists (pronounced Dow O Ist) and theirs is not a religion that would ridicule any other or else there wouldn't be any Catholics in China and there are quite a few. The Buddhists? Never. Hindus? nope. Sikhs? nope...

so that leaves the Atheists, some agnostics, Communists, Wiccans, and Jews. Hardly even 10% of the world's population.

You know Nye, it isn't necessary for you to keep proving to me how little you know about this subject....you've succeeded quite well at convincing me that you know less than my 13 year old...mind you...let's give the kid credit he's been reading at levels 5 years ahead of him since he was 8 and his doing his next book report on the Holy Blood | Holy Grail

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Care to support that?

Okay...



Christianity: 2 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
Buddhism: 360 million
Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
primal-indigenous: 150 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 14 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 6 million
Jainism: 4 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 3 million
Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
Scientology: 600 thousand
Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand

Oh wait...of course you can't because you pulled that out of your arse.

And I apologize for the smell, seeing as how it came from my rectum and all. I got this information from http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html but there were other websites with similar statistics. Again, I apologize for the smell...

2/3 of the world's population would pretty much be all the Christians and the Muslims...oh...by the way, Christians are respected by Muslims as People of the Book.

55% actually, but you weren't too far off. Might I suggest that you put this "respect" to the test and take your next vacation to Iraq, Iran or Syria perhaps?

So that leaves us with the Taoists (pronounced Dow O Ist) and theirs is not a religion that would ridicule any other or else there wouldn't be any Catholics in China and there are quite a few. The Buddhists? Never. Hindus? nope. Sikhs? nope...

Some of these religions may not "ridicule" Christianity, sure. But they certainly do not consider the mythical characters and mythology of Christianity to be true by any means. Christianity is a bogus religion to them. And if you don't believe this, then you are truly naive...

You know Nye, it isn't necessary for you to keep proving to me how little you know about this subject....you've succeeded quite well at convincing me that you know less than my 13 year old..

<< spends a few minutes looking at previous posts by Skippy >>
Wait a minute... oh, there's some... nope... nope... false alarm. Still waiting to see 1 byte of proof or fact to support ANYTHING that Skippy has said so far. Ironically, you have done very little to prove how much you supposedly know about this subject. Up to this point, just paranoid knee-jerk responses, empty rhetoric, sadly biased opinions and typically blind faith. But such is the norm in the Religion forum...

and his doing his next book report on the Holy Blood | Holy Grail

LOL!!! Good for him! He needs to be exposed to some reality. Be prepared for some TOUGH questions, Skippy!

[Skippy]

No need to quote your hokum.....you quite simply showed that you were wrong....so, you're right....55% versus 2/3....close enough that the range is in there somewhere.

Do you know any Muslims? Have you ever been to a Mosque? Don't listen to those you despise so much for their propaganda...I have way too many friends that are Muslims to know that Christians are respected. Even in the Taliban Afghanistan Christians were not persecuted.

But, I will give you 1/2 pt for doing your own research, and now that you've looked at you can see that your response changes from one of Christians being ridiculed to one where not many people believe.

Keep up the good work of proving how little you know. As for my kid, tough questions don't scare me....I think you need to understand that I've been studying religions longer than you've been alive. I've been online since you fist got your very own action figures...so maybe you would be wise to actually research some of the stuff I share with you, you might find, like you did with your statement about ridiule, that you really don't know what you are talking about.

[dutchie]

WTF?!? Hellooooo!!! Can we PLEASE stay on topic here?!?
Will all infidels without relevant questions please return to the southern lands or to the mudpits of Mordor where they came from?!

Bill, may the light of the Two Trees of Valinor, captured in the Three Great Jewels - made by Fëanor, greatest of the craftsmen of the Noldor - also known as the Silmarils, shine upon us, so that we may answer all questions with the wisdom that comes from them (and from any other relevant URL we may need to figure all of this out).

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

No need to quote your hokum.....you quite simply showed that you were wrong....

Ummm, I thought that you might like to see some facts, but apparently I was wrong. I realize now that facts, logic and reality have no place in your life. But let me try again. Now, scroll up a little bit... there ya go... just a... a little bit... okay... now stop! See that? Yeah, now read it. Go on, read it! It's okay, it won't bite! Yeah, there ya go! Good boy! See how it says EXACTLY what B.NyeTheUruk-Hai said? Oh, okay. Read it again, only this time mouth the words as you read it. There, that's better! Good boy! Yeah, Nye was... GASP... RIGHT! But how can that be? YOU said that Nye was WRONG. But CLEARLY he is RIGHT, as evidenced by the information RIGHT ON THE SCREEN. Oh... I get it. Skippy has very TINY testicles and thus cannot admit when he's wrong even when the information is RIGHT there in front of him. What a small little man...

SIDE NOTE: Skippy STILL has yet to provide 1 byte of ANYTHING to support his arguments aside from simply cutting and pasting PREVIOUS "rebuttals" that he's already used and which are comprised of paranoid knee-jerk responses, empty rhetoric, sadly biased opinions and typically blind faith. Not even 1 byte! Wow...

Do you know any Muslims? Have you ever been to a Mosque?

I've known a few Muslims in my day, but I have a much more interesting story to tell you. A few years ago, I worked with an Egyptian here in Canada. He was born and raised in Egypt and became a medical doctor. I asked him what made him decide to come to Canada with his wife and three kids. He proceeded to tell me how he had set up a practice in Egypt and was doing fairly well. That is, until the local Cleric decided to step in and change things. This cleric told the people NOT to go and see my Egyptian friend, to instead go to other doctors. To make a long story short, his practice was ruined and he was forced via religious pressure to leave his beloved country and come to Canada. Why would this Cleric want to force my Egyptian friend out of the country? Because he was Christian. And Egypt is a much more "moderate" Muslim country than Iraq, Iran or Syria. So don't be naive and think that your "Americanized" Muslim friends represent the Muslim world, because they don't. My challenge for you to take your next vacation to Iraq, Iran or Syria still stands. But make sure that you have life insurance before you go...

SIDE NOTE: Skippy STILL has yet to provide 1 byte of ANYTHING to support his arguments aside from simply cutting and pasting PREVIOUS "rebuttals" that he's already used and which are comprised of paranoid knee-jerk responses, empty rhetoric, sadly biased opinions, typically blind faith and now distorted "Americanized" world views from atypical "Americanized" Muslims. Not even 1 byte! Wow...

But, I will give you 1/2 pt for doing your own research, and now that you've looked at you can see that your response changes from one of Christians being ridiculed to one where not many people believe.

I give you ZERO points for not doing any research AT ALL. Again, I've got balls and you DON'T...

SIDE NOTE: Skippy STILL has yet to provide 1 byte of ANYTHING to support his arguments aside from simply cutting and pasting PREVIOUS "rebuttals" that he's already used and which are comprised of paranoid knee-jerk responses, empty rhetoric, sadly biased opinions, typically blind faith and now distorted "Americanized" world views from atypical "Americanized" Muslims. Not even 1 byte! Wow...

I think you need to understand that I've been studying religions longer than you've been alive. I've been online since you fist got your very own action figures...

LOL! Once again, just how old do you think that I am? I'm eager to hear your guess! The online quote is quite impressive seeing as how there was no such thing as an internet back when I got my first action figures, unless the Commodore64 somehow had online capabilities that I wasn't aware of.

SIDE NOTE: Skippy STILL has yet to provide 1 byte of ANYTHING to support his arguments aside from simply cutting and pasting PREVIOUS "rebuttals" that he's already used and which are comprised of paranoid knee-jerk responses, empty rhetoric, sadly biased opinions, typically blind faith, distorted "Americanized" world views from atypical "Americanized" Muslims and now carnival-like mental abilities that allow him to guess peoples' ages. Not even 1 byte! Wow...

...so maybe you would be wise to actually research some of the stuff I share with you,

LOL! Look in the mirror! Or better yet, look at ANY of your previous posts! Skippy STILL has yet to provide 1 byte of ANYTHING to support his arguments aside from simply cutting and pasting PREVIOUS "rebuttals" that he's already used and which are comprised of paranoid knee-jerk responses, empty rhetoric, sadly biased opinions, typically blind faith, distorted "Americanized" world views from atypical "Americanized" Muslims, carnival-like mental abilities that allow him to guess peoples' ages and now hypocritical double standards. Not even 1 byte! Wow...

you might find, like you did with your statement about ridiule, that you really don't know what you are talking about.

This was a matter of semantics, and I had big enough balls to admit as much. Unfortunately, you DON'T have balls of ANY size which makes you a pathetically small, teeny little man. In fact, my action figures are bigger men than you...

SIDE NOTE: Skippy STILL has yet to provide 1 byte of ANYTHING to support his arguments aside from simply cutting and pasting PREVIOUS "rebuttals" that he's already used and which are comprised of paranoid knee-jerk responses, empty rhetoric, sadly biased opinions, typically blind faith, distorted "Americanized" world views from atypical "Americanized" Muslims, carnival-like mental abilities that allow him to guess peoples' ages, hypocritical double standards and now recyclable cut-and-paste responses that can be used generically in ANY unintelligent rebuttal. Not even 1 byte! Wow...

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Oh, by the way, I'm going to revise the data that I provided for you earlier. According to Vox, approximately 50% of "Christians" use contraceptives in some form or another and thus this makes them NOT true Christians. So the actual number of "true" Christians (there's an oxymoron for you) in the world is reduced to 1 billion which is 16.5% of the world's population. Wow. Thanks to Vox, now there are almost as many atheists/agnostics as there are Christians! Put on a life jacket, Skippy, you're on a sinking ship...

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

My apologies, dutchie, for straying off topic. Skippy has a nasty habit of sticking his nose where it doesn't belong and attempting to spoil the fun of others. Anyway, I have GLORIOUS news! Check out the following link and then be prepared to make a pilgrimmage to Toronto next February!!!

Lord of the Rings Stage Production

Yooooouuuuuu... shaaalllllll not... paaassssss... this opportunity!

[Skippy]

My apologies, dutchie, for straying off topic. Skippy has a nasty habit of sticking his nose where it doesn't belong and attempting to spoil the fun of others. Anyway, I have GLORIOUS news! Check out the following link and then be prepared to make a pilgrimmage to Toronto next February!!!

Hay dipstick....it's really easy to figure out....my nose gets to belong wherever I decide to put it. If I wasn't allowed to post in here then I assume I would be blocked....nope...still looks good.

The simple fact of the matter is, discussing hypothetical religions like this one and your Jedi BS, is something that people who don't really understand religions do. That would be you. Can't handle the real stuff so you make some crap up out of your brain because then you don't really have to think about it, you just post whatever comes into your head.


So now that your relgion has a musical, does that give it credance? Or is it just an off topic post to keep this thread?

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Hay dipstick....it's really easy to figure out....my nose gets to belong wherever I decide to put it. If I wasn't allowed to post in here then I assume I would be blocked....nope...still looks good.

Yeah, we've noticed. Aaaahhhh, the memories... the last time that I heard somebody say the word "dipstick" was when I was in grade 3. But hey, if your only defence is the use of inane grade-school playground name-calling, then go for it! No no no! Don't worry! I promise that I won't tell my mommy...

The simple fact of the matter is, discussing hypothetical religions like this one and your Jedi BS, is something that people who don't really understand religions do. That would be you.

And as long as discussing hypothetical religions pisses you off as much as it obviously DOES, I will continue to make up stuff just to piss you off! LOL! Oh, and by the way, I hope that saying that I don't understand religions isn't an insult, because that would imply that I CARE that I don't understand. Thanks for trying though...

Can't handle the real stuff so you make some crap up out of your brain

BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
You mean kind of like how YOU "can't handle the real stuff", so you believe in some invisible man who lives in the sky and controls your life, who was made up by some guy SEVERAL MILLENNIA AGO who "made some crap up out of his brain". LOL!!! WHAT a hypocrite!!! Congratulations, Skippy!!! LOL!!! You've successfully described HOW and WHY religions originated in ONE elegant sentence. What's REALLY funny though is how you've insulted ALL religions in your hypocritical attempt to insult Jedianity and Arda! Way to go, Skippy! LOL!!! Keep those "insults" coming!!! LOL!!!

So now that your relgion has a musical, does that give it credance?

Not as much credence as Mad Max making a snuff film...

Or is it just an off topic post to keep this thread?

Uummmm, I think that you might require some reading glasses because, last time I checked, Lord of the Rings is "somewhat" related to Arda which would subsequently make it "on topic" in this thread. And I'll keep posting things here even if it's NOT on topic JUST to piss you off, Skippy, simply because it DOES. LOL!!!

SIDE NOTE: Skippy STILL has yet to provide 1 byte of ANYTHING to support his arguments aside from simply cutting and pasting PREVIOUS "rebuttals" that he's already used and which are comprised of paranoid knee-jerk responses, empty rhetoric, sadly biased opinions, typically blind faith, distorted "Americanized" world views from atypical "Americanized" Muslims, carnival-like mental abilities that allow him to guess peoples' ages, hypocritical double standards and recyclable cut-and-paste responses that can be used generically in ANY unintelligent rebuttal. Not even 1 byte! Wow...

[dutchie]

Skippy, the mere fact that YOU don't believe in the One, Eru - the father of all things, doesn't mean you can come in here and post your hatred against the true faith of Arda... Come now, you behave in a manner very unfitting to your own religion.. You are most welcome here if you would ask questions. This is MY thread, I started it - not you - and you are welcome to post any questions you have here about the creation of Arda and all facts that happened during its 4 eras (the destruction of the one Ring was only a tiny fraction of its history, but a very significant fraction indeed - for it marked the end of Sauron and his kingdom of darkness).

I am happy there will be a play about the Lord of the Rings. Finally we will have our own Jesus Christ Superstar. I wished the music could be as sweet as Ainulindalë, the sound of the great concert of the Ainur, the bringer of all things that have come to be.
I have only one thing to say to you, Skippy: "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!"

[Skippy]

Skippy, the mere fact that YOU don't believe in the One, Eru - the father of all things, doesn't mean you can come in here and post your hatred against the true faith of Arda... Come now, you behave in a manner very unfitting to your own religion.. You are most welcome here if you would ask questions.

Okay, so I posted a statement that is an indirect question that compares this religion to Greek mythology. I see you did not elaborate, nor defend your religion. Thus, like the other fictional religion, no questioners allowed unless the questions are first approved by the head of that religion.

This is MY thread, I started it - not you - and you are welcome to post any questions you have here about the creation of Arda and all facts that happened during its 4 eras (the destruction of the one Ring was only a tiny fraction of its history, but a very significant fraction indeed - for it marked the end of Sauron and his kingdom of darkness).

In all fairness, MY thread about the prophecy of St. Malachi contains quite a few posts from you that have nothing to do with the topic. Topic creep is something that happens on every message board.

I am happy there will be a play about the Lord of the Rings. Finally we will have our own Jesus Christ Superstar. I wished the music could be as sweet as Ainulindalë, the sound of the great concert of the Ainur, the bringer of all things that have come to be.
I have only one thing to say to you, Skippy: "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!"

Still don't see how a musical has any religious significance. But, just like the other movie based relgion, there isn't any real substance to it so the discussion wanders into the merchandising and marketing very quickly. And as I said once before, perhaps if you were actually discussing the religion there would be some merit, but at this point it remains literary discussion at best, merchandising discussin at worst. Hence, this isn't about religion at all.

Also, and again in all fairness, that which is sewn in the other religious discussions will be allowed to grow in here as well. Just because your religion here is fictional does not make it less worthy of the treatment that is afforded to discussions about established religions.

[Mezurashi]

Skippy, why are you so full of hatred against anything that doesn't fit into your little paradigm of sense and sensibility? Do you know how simple minded and immature you seem? Your defense of a Death Cult doesn't make you seem ardent, but rather somewhat brainwashed or programmed. Oh, and Tom Clancey doesn't know what he's talking about, so stop referring to him for facts about the world.

[Skippy]

Skippy, why are you so full of hatred against anything that doesn't fit into your little paradigm of sense and sensibility? Do you know how simple minded and immature you seem? Your defense of a Death Cult doesn't make you seem ardent, but rather somewhat brainwashed or programmed. Oh, and Tom Clancey doesn't know what he's talking about, so stop referring to him for facts about the world.

Me filled with hatred? please point out where you have encountered anything hateful from me about any religion? There is no hatred in this, just pointing out some double standards. Also pointing out that this "religious" discussion isn't about a religion at all, it's a literary discussion that never really gets into religion but keeps straying to associated merchandising.

Tom Clancy for facts? Huh? What the hell are you talking about?

I will defend any faith that a person chooses to follow. I do not see anything wrong with any religion. It is not a relgion that is bad or good, but the persons who claim to be practicing it that are bad or good, depending on the religion and its values.

Death Cult? Oh, please start a new topic so we can adequately debate this; civil debate of course. But first, research the hell out of this because you can be assured that I will have done my research. Considering that you have recently joined AO, I suggest you do a bit of reading backwards first because you may discover that I actually know what I am talking about. You may not agree with what I say or my conclusions, but you can be assured that I am well read on the subject of religion, history, psychology and anthropology. I have a vast library of books on religion and history that will give me ready access to all kinds of information.

[dutchie]

Oh great, another fictional religion that comes complete action figures, a box set and lost more merchandising. Change the names and it sounds like you have got mostly Greek mythology with a tiny sprinkle of Judaism.

So this was your "question"? Hmmmm... To me it looks like two separate statements...

At first there were the books (just like in christianity - In greek mythology the myths came to life BEFORE the books were written) by our blessed gospel writer J.R.R. Tolkien, who spent almost a lifetime in quiet contemplation about the revelations that were put in his head.. Then LATER came the movie trilogy (which Tolkien never saw, because he had pressing engagements elsewhere..) and the action figures. Christianity and more precisely the Catholic Church uses them too (including the movie box -"The Passion"). Upon entering a catholic church (which I sometimes do, when it is of architectural interest) there is always that nauseating musty smell in combination with the lifesize, bloodsprinkled action figures - quite horrible for my little children, IMO.

I fail to see the Judaism reference, though..
Like all religions, this one is also about creation, people (and elves and orcs, of course) and good and evil. It is extremely well thought out, it has a great story line (which it shares with a good part of the Bible.. I always LOVED David and Goliath!!) and celebrates a large, nay huge number of almost obsessed followers (myself included).

So in conclusion: there is not much difference really between Christianity and the religion of Arda. The number of common factors is just overwhelming. Claiming it is fictional says something about YOUR beliefs, but in essence is no more than a subjective judgment.

Now, on to the next question - this time equipped WITH the question mark, please!!

[Skippy]

So this was your "question"? Hmmmm... To me it looks like two separate statements...

At first there were the books (just like in christianity - In greek mythology the myths came to life BEFORE the books were written) by our blessed gospel writer J.R.R. Tolkien, who spent almost a lifetime in quiet contemplation about the revelations that were put in his head..

Do you know this for sure? That he spent a lifetime in quiet contemplation? Is it possible that he was just writing a story and borrowed so much from other religions so that he didn't really have to devise a new one?

Christianity and more precisely the Catholic Church uses them too (including the movie box -"The Passion"). Upon entering a catholic church (which I sometimes do, when it is of architectural interest) there is always that nauseating musty smell in combination with the lifesize, bloodsprinkled action figures - quite horrible for my little children, IMO.

Response Part 1....touché...Response Part II....So this is more similar on a grand scale to Christianity than appears at first glance. Tolkien wrote the books (delivered the message) those who came after sold it as a commodity.

I fail to see the Judaism reference, though..
Like all religions, this one is also about creation, people (and elves and orcs, of course) and good and evil. It is extremely well thought out, it has a great story line (which it shares with a good part of the Bible.. I always LOVED David and Goliath!!) and celebrates a large, nay huge number of almost obsessed followers (myself included).

Contradicted yourself. But you are correct, there are a lot of parts to this story that come from the Bible and from Greek myths. Only the names are changed.

So in conclusion: there is not much difference really between Christianity and the religion of Arda. The number of common factors is just overwhelming. Claiming it is fictional says something about YOUR beliefs, but in essence is no more than a subjective judgment.

Calling it fictional has to do with the fact that nobody is actively partcipating in it. Greek myths would be a fictional religion if nobody had ever actually believed it or practiced it. Historically we know that this was a major religion a long time ago, whereas the religion of Arda was never actively practiced.

Or, a better example since you've admitted that there is little distinction between this and Christianity, would be the Mormons. If nobody had ever bought into the Joseph Smith/Brigham Young fictional creation, then the LDS would be a fictional religion, but since Utah exists, then the LDS is no longer a fictional religion, just a huge scam.

Now, on to the next question - this time equipped WITH the question mark, please!!

Is it possible that this religion was created as a vehicle to giving an alternate view of the Judea-Christian belief system in a form that would make it possible for persons who claim atheism, or have a really big issue with organized Christianity, to find the belief system palatble? If so, then is it possible that this is just Christianity in disguise?

What is the moral code, and where are the references to that?

Does Tolkien, the messenger, claim that this is a new religion, old religion, or religion at all with a message? Or does the messenger believe himself, that this is a fictional religion that was created solely for the purpose of literary vehicle?

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

I have only one thing to say to you, Skippy: "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!"

Please tell us, dutchie son of dutchie's father, what do these words mean?

Thus, like the other fictional religion, no questioners allowed unless the questions are first approved by the head of that religion.

This is a blasphemous lie, you infidel! The Apostle Bill and dutchie son of dutchie's father have answered ALL questions posed to them! Ask away!

Still don't see how a musical has any religious significance. But, just like the other movie based relgion, there isn't any real substance to it so the discussion wanders into the merchandising and marketing very quickly. And as I said once before, perhaps if you were actually discussing the religion there would be some merit, but at this point it remains literary discussion at best, merchandising discussin at worst. Hence, this isn't about religion at all. Also, and again in all fairness, that which is sewn in the other religious discussions will be allowed to grow in here as well. Just because your religion here is fictional does not make it less worthy of the treatment that is afforded to discussions about established religions.

Lighten up, Skippy! You're being a stick in the mud again!

Me filled with hatred? please point out where you have encountered anything hateful from me about any religion? There is no hatred in this, just pointing out some double standards.

The bad man (the use of the word 'man' is tenuous at best when describing Skippy) called my a "dipstick"! He made me feel sad! I hope he gets COODIES!!!

It is not a relgion that is bad or good, but the persons who claim to be practicing it that are bad or good, depending on the religion and its values.

Very insightful for a change! You DO realize though, that these religions, including YOURS, were created by ordinary people who sought to control the populace through religious blackmail. Thus, bad people made bad religions...

you can be assured that I will have done my research.

Unfortunately, the Bible and publications written by religious "scholars" are SEVERELY flawed due to their bias. REAL scholars who use OBJECTIVE science laugh at religious "scholars" whose SUBJECTIVE "findings" are altered to fit their religious agenda. If their "findings" don't support their religious beliefs, then these "findings" are refuted. Hardly objective. Nice try though...

I suggest you do a bit of reading backwards first because you may discover that I actually know what I am talking about.

TRANSLATION: He knows alot about mythology but little about reality.

At first there were the books (just like in christianity - In greek mythology the myths came to life BEFORE the books were written) by our blessed gospel writer J.R.R. Tolkien, who spent almost a lifetime in quiet contemplation about the revelations that were put in his head..

PRAISE THE TOLKIEN!!!

Christianity and more precisely the Catholic Church uses them too (including the movie box -"The Passion"). Upon entering a catholic church (which I sometimes do, when it is of architectural interest) there is always that nauseating musty smell in combination with the lifesize, bloodsprinkled action figures - quite horrible for my little children, IMO.

LOL!!! So one could say that Christianity INVENTED action figures! The Mary Magdalene action figure comes complete with alabaster jar and kung-fu anointing action...

So in conclusion: there is not much difference really between Christianity and the religion of Arda. The number of common factors is just overwhelming. Claiming it is fictional says something about YOUR beliefs, but in essence is no more than a subjective judgment.

What's sad is that Skippy and others like him can't see that Christianity is just another myth in a LONG procession of myths. He ridicules other religions because they are too "fantastical" and then turns right back around and expects others to believe that there is an invisible man in the sky, that Jesus performed miracles, that the ENTIRE Earth flooded, that Moses parted the Red Sea etc. etc. etc. ... Him and other religious zealots have achieved the pinnacle of hypocrisy and they are completely oblivious to this fact because they are so far out of touch with reality...

Do you know this for sure? That he spent a lifetime in quiet contemplation? Is it possible that he was just writing a story and borrowed so much from other religions so that he didn't really have to devise a new one?

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I think he's starting to get it!!! Now, Skippy, go stand in front of the mirror and repeat exactly what you just said. This is PRICELESS!!! He's using the SAME arguments to refute Arda that WE use to refute Christianity and other religions!!! What a hypocrite!!! LOL!!!

But you are correct, there are a lot of parts to this story that come from the Bible and from Greek myths. Only the names are changed.

DITTO!!! BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Is it possible that this religion was created as a vehicle to giving an alternate view of the Judea-Christian belief system in a form that would make it possible for persons who claim atheism, or have a really big issue with organized Christianity, to find the belief system palatble? If so, then is it possible that this is just Christianity in disguise?

Nope. As I explained in the Jedianity thread disclaimer, the purpose of creating Jedianity and subsequently Arda is to show religious zealots like yourself how EASY it is to create a religion and to bait you into asking questions which question Jedianity's and Arda's legitimacy for the purpose of demonstrating that these same legitimacy questions can be used to question the legitimacy of Christianity and other religions. AND YOU FELL FOR IT HOOK, LINE AND SINKER!!!!! You're showing the EXACT SAME skepticism for Jedianity and Arda as WE show for Christianity, pointing out the SAME FLAWS that we point out to YOU!!! We suckered you in and now you're TRAPPED in a corner!!! I just didn't think that it would be THAT easy. I'm almost disappointed...

[dutchie]

Do you know this for sure? That he spent a lifetime in quiet contemplation? Is it possible that he was just writing a story and borrowed so much from other religions so that he didn't really have to devise a new one?

Who is to say? But the revelations have this profound comprehensiveness to them... truly everything is being covered in them. And what is more, the hero doesn't even get killed!! Even when under attack by the Mother Of ALL Spiders, Shelob, he did not flee, but held high the Phial of Galadriel, in which was captured the light of the evening star. The Light burned the eyes of the evil creature so it might recognize and run from the righteousness of Frodo, the Ringbearer.
Tolkien really started writing his first revelation, called "The Hobbit" in 1936. He stopped writing shortly before his death in 1973. I'd call this nothing short of a lifetime.

Is it possible that this religion was created as a vehicle to giving an alternate view of the Judea-Christian belief system in a form that would make it possible for persons who claim atheism, or have a really big issue with organized Christianity, to find the belief system palatble? If so, then is it possible that this is just Christianity in disguise?

Tolkien was a close friend to C.S. Lewis. Lewis was a famous author too, he wrote phantasy novels like the Narnia Series. Now THOSE had a very distinct christian odour (still quite readable, though..) while the storylines of The Silmarillion, The Hobbit and LOTR don't even touch christianity, except (arguably) at the point where Gandalf "dies", fighting the Balrog, and "resurrects" himself to come back as Gandalf the White. Afterwards however, the Gandalf figure gets far less important - the true hero is Frodo.
It was without doubt C.S. Lewis goal to make the christian morals and values more accessible to secularized readers. Tolkien didn't have this goal.
In fact, Tolkien was the foreign language expert - and this expertise came in quite handy when he had to write down all quotes in elvish and orcish in his revelations. If there are religions or myths that touch the LOTR and the Silmarillion, one should look to ancient Norse and Celtic myths. Eru knew who to pick to write down his gospel.

What is the moral code, and where are the references to that?

I could reply by asking for the moral code of the bible and the references for that, but then you would be writing for three days on end to reply to that one. I do not believe there is a moral code - it's more like a theme. The war between the powers of good and evil. The idea that good will prevail when one perseveres in his quest. The impossible can be accomplished when one believes in commitment. Are these christian values? I think not. They are universal truths.

Does Tolkien, the messenger, claim that this is a new religion, old religion, or religion at all with a message? Or does the messenger believe himself, that this is a fictional religion that was created solely for the purpose of literary vehicle?

Tolkien made no claim whatsoever. But from his letters one gets convinced that he really believed in the revelations he wrote. And of course, I am convinced too.

Let me add that I had a lot of fun reading Bill's reply to you. Indeed you come to this thread showing the very same scepticism and critique you are faced with in other religious threads..

One question from me to you: did you ACTUALLY READ the revelations of Tolkien? Like I read the Bible?? Or are you blurting our criticism while you didn't even bother reading these masterpieces of literature?!?

[dutchie]

Please tell us, dutchie son of dutchie's father, what do these words mean?

These words were shouted by Fingon. As High King, he commanded the assault upon Morgoth that became known as the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Unnumbered Tears, and in that assault he was himself slain by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs in 1455 of the first Era.

"The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!"

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

One question from me to you: did you ACTUALLY READ the revelations of Tolkien? Like I read the Bible?? Or are you blurting our criticism while you didn't even bother reading these masterpieces of literature?!?

I suspect that this is dutchie son of dutchie's father's way of diplomatically telling Skippy that he is "being lazy", to use Skippy's own words. This is the very definition of hypocrisy, plain as day. Dutchie son of dutchie's father and myself, the Apostle Bill, are not necessarily trying to ridicule you here, Skippy. Our goal is to show you our thought processes when we criticize ANY religion, not just Christianity. Although we don't expect you to abandon your faith, we hope that you would at least gain a better understanding of where we are coming from...

[Skippy]

Let me add that I had a lot of fun reading Bill's reply to you. Indeed you come to this thread showing the very same scepticism and critique you are faced with in other religious threads..

And there went any respect I have for you.

One question from me to you: did you ACTUALLY READ the revelations of Tolkien? Like I read the Bible?? Or are you blurting our criticism while you didn't even bother reading these masterpieces of literature?!?

Oh hell no, to be completely honest, I am not into fantasy literature so it would take me a lot to get into the series. I am blurting out criticism because there has been so much criticism directed towards Christians by you, and others. Figured I would just do what was done to others with great intention. We can all have our fun in different ways. Too many people here are too quick to argue the merits and pitfalls about Christianity without reading the Bible, nor studying its history. Why should you or anyone else expect anything different when it is something you hold dear to your heart? Don't like it do you? Perhaps the next time someone like Vox, or others before him attempts to offer insights or personal knowledge you may think twice about how you respond to them.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

"The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!"

Dutchie son of dutchie's father, your wangsaber of knowledge is surely wielded with much power! Indeed the day has come! Thank you for this translation!

These words were shouted by Fingon. As High King, he commanded the assault upon Morgoth that became known as the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Unnumbered Tears, and in that assault he was himself slain by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs in 1455 of the first Era.

Tell me, wielder of knowledge, is this Gothmog that you speak of the very same creature who led the dark forces of Sauron at the battle of Pelennor Fields outside the mighty walls of Minas Tirith? For those less versed in dutchie's vast knowledge of all things Middle-Earth, I speak of Gothmog, the so-called "tumor orc" who led Sauron's ground forces in the siege of Minas Tirith, not the Morgul Lord (aka the Captain of the Nazgul, aka the Witch King of Angmar) who led the aerial assault of the Nazgul astride their menacing Fell Beasts. I await your clarification on this matter, wise one...