Top 10 Reasons to NOT Join The Service...

[liberdave]

Allright, I have deemed it necessary to move a conversation me and DontBeAfraid started in another thread into here...

You have no idea what boot camp is for so dont pretend you do.

Really? You think so? Why then, must you go through months of gruelling physical and mental training? I think to prepare you for things that would not normally happen to you outside of the service. Like killing a child with your barehands. Under no circumstance, as a civilian, under normal circumstances, would any situation call for killing a child with your bare hands. However, in the service I could easily bring up a scenario where this knowledge of warfare rings nessecary. BUT, In order to make you prepare for things that you would normally NOT do as a civy, they must remove your prior morals and ethics. Now in order to do that, they must tear down ALL of you. (Wether or not they succed seems to lay on the individual) Then instilling you with THIER brand of morals and ethics. Now the type of morals and ethics they do instill could fill another thread.

Discuss it here please, as this is in relation to what pissed me off in the first place.

What? The robot thing? Answer the question above and then hopefully the answer to this becomes self-evident.

[DontBeAfraid]

Please name this situation. It is not something that I trained for during basic( you know, the training you know nothing about). The likelyhood of needing to kill a child with you bare hands is about as likely to arise in civilian life as it is in the military.... There are realistic situations you could have chosen and if you scaled it back a bit your assertion might not be laughable.

They dont teach you to be robots they teach you that WHILE you are serving you are not the most important person on earth(something your parents should have taught you a long time ago anyways)and that you are part of a team. You are taught NOT to obey unethical or illegal orders. Guess how you determine what is unethical or illegal.... what the hell Ill tell you: your past expirences, most of which are probably from your life before you joined the military. Thats your civilian life.

But just for fun lets hear what morals and ethics you think they instill(I remember the 7 one hour ethics/duty classes I sat through in a half awake stuper during basic but I want to know what kind of silly notions you have.)

[dutchie]

Just a little reminder...

I will be monitoring this thread closely. Any posting that does not comply with forum rules will be edited or deleted. Keep it civil. Please (see? I'm being friendly and polite!)..

[nrj]

They dont teach you to be robots they teach you that WHILE you are serving you are not the most important person on earth(something your parents should have taught you a long time ago anyways)and that you are part of a team. You are taught NOT to obey unethical or illegal orders. Guess how you determine what is unethical or illegal.... what the hell Ill tell you: your past expirences, most of which are probably from your life before you joined the military. Thats your civilian life.

I think it's unethical to kill people who have another opinion then you. ex) Your "enemy" dont want his country invaded, but you want it invaded. It is the same thing, don't say it aint!

[Mezurashi]

i'd comment but the anti-war and anti-military elements in this group have begun exercising their overrides ... I am not a warmonger but I am also not a reactive, knee jerk pacifist and I see a sort of 'herd' mentality forming around certain people who have a negative and not based on experience version of reality as it deals with the military.

really, it's like letting born-again White Christians run an abortion clinic.

have fun being over-riding...

[DontBeAfraid]

nrj your comment has nothing to do with the topic. Any more like it and you will make my ignore list.....

[nrj]

nrj your comment has nothing to do with the topic. Any more like it and you will make my ignore list.....

All right, this is a duel between you two, so i'll just shut up.

[Seeker]

Dontbeafraid,
What did the military teach you in those 7 sessions of ethics? I'm really not coming in on either side of this arguement, I just would like some more information. Thanks for the help.

[liberdave]

Ok first off...
You got it Dutchie, I will keep it civil, I see name calling as a weakness...
Second off...
I do not claim myself a pacifist, I perfectly see that sometimes you have to crack skulls to get shit done. However, I think the way the government uses coercion, and patriotism as a tool to a)get recruits b)sell their partisan agendas and c)fleece America constitutes some of the biggest crimes and injustices seen since Gobbles.
Third...

Please name this situation.

Ok... say umm... (thought experiment) a child walks into your tent/room/whatever with a bomb tied to their back, you do not have you gun handy, and the only way to save yourself means you have to enter hand to hand combat with a child.
Look, I don't hate you DontBeAfraid I hate the above three traits of the gov't. My capabilities nor desire doesn't encompass a willingness to argue inherent right or wrong over military service, BUT I made the point that PT changes you. You can not deny that.

You are taught NOT to obey unethical or illegal orders.

Umm... Sorry man, but I know "all is fair in war". Sometimes you have break some eggs to make an omelette. Now wether or not you would break ethics in the field of combat, I cant answer. But, given any combat situation and the severity thereof, I can justfuly say ethics get thrown out. Now I do know the forces don't tolerate illegal activities but... Everyone dose something illegal, how often do you speed? Legalities mean little when your life is on the line. And as far as your classes, that's assume. But, it's kinda like breaking your leg and teaching you how to walk with a crutch.
This conversation stemmed from the fact that polititians often want you to "support the troops" when in fact, they want you to support their war act or whatever. It equates to Starbucks adding shit into their coffee and starting the slogan, "What about our employees, they are your sons/daughters. Please support Starbucks and their decision to add shit to their coffee!"

your past expirences, most of which are probably from your life before you joined the military.

I would assume that most people that join the military already need some sort of guidance and direction in their life. I mean, if you a real option of yours includes joining the military, that usually means most other options became unavailable. All of the people I know who enlisted did so as a last resort. Now I wont equate social or financial status and morality and ethics. But when the goin gets tough, the tough get goin.

something your parents should have taught you a long time ago anyways

Thats another issue, You backed my argument about individualism.

[DontBeAfraid]

you child scenario is not a possibility. The only time I would be asleep in a tent without a gun is deep within a well fortified position(ie stateside). try again.

PT made me more fit, so ya it changed me. Im going to assume you used 'PT' wrong because its not a bad thing at all.

Now tell me about the legalities of combat. Everyone who is leaving the states is issued ROE cards which let you know exactly how much force you can use, when you can use it and who you can use it on. If you break the ROE you are in violation of the law. In any situation, civilian or military, its legal to defend your life.

This conversation stemmed from you knocking soldiers on memorial day. It stemmed from you calling them mindless idiot robots with no control over their own actions on a day you are supposed to remember the fallen. I should have put you on ignore but I got roped in by a troll.

seeker each class followed the same pattern, they would pick a buzz phrase like say "selfless service" or "personal responsibility" and have that up on a wall in a large classroom. You would go in and be seated then spend the next hour trying to stay awake while they went over the definition of that word. When you were caught with your eyes closed or your head bobbing you were made to do some "PT" then asked if you could recite what had been said so far. When you couldnt recite it you were made to do some more PT. The classes were more about filling time and the drill sargents having fun while making sleepy privates do pushups and flutter kicks then they were about trying to reinstill morals/ethics.

edit: liberdave maybe you have friends that joined and came back from basic acting "louder"..... thats happens with some of them but it goes away after a short while. They are the same people they were before.

[Zyztem]

Umm... Sorry man, but I know "all is fair in war". Sometimes you have break some eggs to make an omelette. Now wether or not you would break ethics in the field of combat, I cant answer. But, given any combat situation and the severity thereof, I can justfuly say ethics get thrown out. Now I do know the forces don't tolerate illegal activities but... Everyone dose something illegal, how often do you speed? Legalities mean little when your life is on the line. And as far as your classes, that's assume. But, it's kinda like breaking your leg and teaching you how to walk with a crutch.

I don't know enough about y'all's other conversation, but I just wanted to jump in and agree with this part. It's called "situational ethics." Regardless of whatever beliefs a person has, a person will tend to do what is necessary to survive. The crappy part about situational ethics is that they can be Monday-morning quarterbacked. Unless a person has been in a particular situation, no one can definitively say "I would've done X, Y or Z." When a person overrides certain of those tendencies for the sake of another, we call them heros.

[liberdave]

you child scenario is not a possibility. The only time I would be asleep in a tent without a gun is deep within a well fortified position(ie stateside). try again.

Right, but I still created a scenario that hasn't been dealt with...

PT made me more fit, so ya it changed me.

You can not honestly say you felt small changes in habits? Do you still make your bed? (or worse, feel a need to but still don't?)

Now tell me about the legalities of combat. Everyone who is leaving the states is issued ROE cards which let you know exactly how much force you can use, when you can use it and who you can use it on.

right. In a perfect world nobody does illegal drugs, speeds, or drinks and drives and everyone doesn't violate their ROE cards. Honestly, they don't. Really. Not at all.

In any situation, civilian or military, its legal to defend your life.

But me defending my life and killing someone by accident and you defending your life and killing someone constitutes two differing realities. I have never received state mandated martial combat training, whiles you have (I assume you have, by the context of your statements.)

This conversation stemmed from you knocking soldiers on memorial day.

I admit, I abandoned logic on my first post... (hence the title rant). But I stick to all I said.

It stemmed from you calling them mindless idiot robots with no control over their own actions on a day you are supposed to remember the fallen.

If you go back and re-read the post, they all attack the government, and I use statements like "all the ones I have met"

I should have put you on ignore but I got roped in by a troll.

And risk missing out on stimulating coversation?

edit: liberdave maybe you have friends that joined and came back from basic acting "louder"..... thats happens with some of them but it goes away after a short while. They are the same people they were before.

I hope this comes true. And I feel that minute things have changed about them. Most of this stems from two friends of mine. Both went Marine Corp. pre-9/11. The first one came out with an exitable air about them. His head seemed a little more tighter then pre-enlist. He had that Illogical Stare about him and I could tell his thought process was radically different. Now I did see him while he was fresh of the boat but after that first encounter I decided to pursue him no more. The second one was worse, Me and him used to run the streets at night and pick fights while drunk, but when he came back, he had that thousand yard stare. He had seen action in Iraq as a tank driver or gunner. *edit*I had an entire account lined up but decided against posting on account that I don't want to encriminate him if what he did was illegal.

[DontBeAfraid]

In a perfect world nobody does illegal drugs, speeds, or drinks and drives and everyone doesn't violate their ROE cards. Honestly, they don't. Really. Not at all.

Civilians are more likely to break the law than military personel.

You can not honestly say you felt small changes in habits? Do you still make your bed? (or worse, feel a need to but still don't?)

PT stands for physical training.... but I know what you are getting at. When I was in the army I slept on top of a made bed so that I wouldnt have to remake it, only tighten it up a little. I didnt tighten it up becuase they brainwashed me into thinking that the bed had to be perfect I did it because of the consequences for not doing it. Thats the motivation most have for everything they do while in the military. They arent warmongering robots they are people with steep consequences for failure. Understand this.(not a question). The only habit that changed for me is that I tend to eat too fast now. I dont shave everyday, I leave my clothes in the dryer instead of hanging them up, I still sleep all day if I can, I cram the garbage can too full so I dont have to take it out. All these things changed in the service only to avoid consequences.

Killing is killing liberdave. If you do it, if I do it, if your friends do it; in the end someone or many are dead. Military personel should be better at it than civilians so that the civilians dont have to.

I have no problem with attacking the government. The government chooses what the soldiers are to do and they are elected by the people. If you dont like the military or what they do you cant blame them you can only blame yourself.

[liberdave]

Civilians are more likely to break the law than military personel.

Have any proof? I say they break the law the same amount.

I have no problem with attacking the government. The government chooses what the soldiers are to do and they are elected by the people. If you dont like the military or what they do you cant blame them you can only blame yourself.

That makes absolutely no sense. Really. Look at this. Why do I need to blame myself for something I did'nt condone in the first palce? I voted, but not for Bush. Actually, I think I find myself included in the few individuals who CAN bitch. I say, DON'T support the troops if you dont support the govt. If you do, you exhibit hypocritism.

[DontBeAfraid]

I found a few sites about domestic violence but most of my google searches came up pro guns.

Dont support the troops? They do what the collective asks of them. We are the collective. You can support the troops while not supporting the war. You think they are all mindless zombies who love war? Fuck off. You are a complete tool and I dont care if this thread gets closed. You know nothing of the military so quit posting as if you do.

[Edge]

DBA ignore him. This is one self-righteous poster who doesn't understand how the world works and has a bad taste in music. There is no room for redemption.

[liberdave]

Dont support the troops? They do what the collective asks of them.

I alone comprise no collective...

We are the collective.

What if I do not want inclusion?

You can support the troops while not supporting the war.

Can you show my how you think so?

You think they are all mindless zombies who love war?

I thought we covered this...

You are a complete tool and I dont care if this thread gets closed.

Why? I think this runs deeper...

You know nothing of the military so quit posting as if you do.

Wow, can't debate? If you care to not continue this, then stop responding. But until you can counter my points with intelligent rebuttal we make no progress. Articulation with cuss words gets you very little unless you look for an aggressive response. I had hoped I would get a better argument than "F*%K OFF!"

This is one self-righteous poster who doesn't understand how the world works

Well... then how DO it work? Maybe you would like to pick up where DBA left off?

has a bad taste in music.

WOW, man you got me there. When you can't beat a man with logic and reason, you just attack his taste in music... You're cold blooded Edge... cooooold blooded.

[Forgotten Rebel]

Jesus Christ I love this, and I love you Liber

I see where you're coming from. When you think about it, all that 'training' of soldiers is for essentially breaking down who you were as a civilian and turning you into as much of a 'machine' as possible.

If you look at the reasons for war the situation get's even more ridiculus since the majority of wars (especially circa the last 100 years) were started over a)trade routes b)resources or c)the impending threat that a or b may be taken away by another group. So these wars are started, and who fights in them? Mostly poor people, mostly black, because they have no other choices (as pointed out earlier). I have no sympathy for people who voluntarily join the army.

And my credentials, DBA will ask, we'll, my grandfather (who is still alive) was in WWII as infantry, fighting for the Germans against the Ruskies. He was forced into it at 16, and was captured in Russia after 2 years, spent 2 years in a Russian PoW camp. Of course, he doesn't support war in any way, especially since he had no choice.

Also, I have several friends (1 of whom is now an officer in the national guard) and the others are still in training. Thier reason, you guessed it, no other choices.

One more comment on the military before I leave (i could have gone on for pages), as always, I will quote the great George Carlin on this one:

"Muhammid Ali was drafted into the military, now, before they wanted him to join he had a strange job, beating people up. But he didn't want to kill people in war, he was content with beating them up. Now, the US military didn't like that he didn't want to kill people so they revoked his boxing licence. Essentially, they were saying 'if you won't kill 'em, we won't let you beat 'em up.' "

[DontBeAfraid]

liber you are ignored. If you dont want to be part of the collective the GET THE FUCK OUT. If you meant that you are unhappy with the collective then please remember that as a part of the collective YOU have the power to help change it.


So FR If you dont like the war you feel ok holding the soldiers responsible? Holding the soldiers responsible for the decisions of the leaders you helped elect?

[nrj]

The soldiers are carrying out the leaders orders, aren't they? I dont care if I will appear on your ignore list or not DBA, but who is it that carry out the politicians wishes? The soldiers. And who is pulling the trigger and killing people in the countries invaded? Not Bush, not the politicians, but the soldiers. I have no sympathy for men fighting for something their goverment see as right, but I do have sympathy for the men dying at the french revolution, because they wanted a more liberal France. The men dying at the streets of Kyoto, because they wanted a free Japan. The men who died storming Kalmar, because they wanted an independent Sweden. Those men I would send a greatfull thought, but, the men invading Iraq and dying, I have no sympathy for. Call me cold blooded, but thats me.

[DontBeAfraid]

So when you hit your thumb with a hammer you blame the hammer right?

[nrj]

So when you hit your thumb with a hammer you blame the hammer right?

No, the one wielding the hammer.

[DontBeAfraid]

But you just said you blame the tool when its not properly used. NOW you are ignored.

[dutchie]

I don't want to join the military too, for lots of reasons - of which my age is the least important one... Am I on ignore now too?

One question - am I in the USA, when I post on this board? I thought not... why is everone doing his very best to having me believe I am...

[nrj]

But you just said you blame the tool when its not properly used. NOW you are ignored.

No, I have never stated that. Soldiers are not tools. They have their own free will, but they use their tools, the M-16 and the Glock, to kill people. Thus, the soldiers are the actuall wielders of the tools, am I wrong?