The identity of evil

[PheonixRIsing]

We often ask ourselves questions like, what is wrong and what is right. The hardest question sometimes is what is evil. In recent years, we have been asking this question about prostitutes, gays, lesbians, and basic human rights. So, what is evil? Well, first of all we have to know what the end result is of evil. This is easy. The end result of evil is "nothing". No really, "nothing." Evil merely seeks to undo order, destroy tranquility, and shatter peace. The end result of evil is ruin. Evil is very much like a virus. Its spreads amongst a populace like a plague. Our society is festering with it. It seeks to undo knowledge, to uproot homes, and destroy life. It sneaks and slithers like a snake, attacking the unsuspecting prey. In the end evil will destroy all existence. Evil is rebellion of the natural order. It is rebellion against creation. It is rebellion against our creator. So, what is evil? To lie, steal, cheat, murder, to lust, to disobey rightful authority, to make oneself God, to commit adultery, fornication. Even homosexuality is a sin. Why? because homosexulity is rebellion of the natural order. What if everyone on earth decided to be gay because it was the hippest thing. There goes the neighborhood. No more neighborhood in fact, no more people. Now, you say that homosexuals are born that way and they cant help being that way. Well, your half-right homos are born that way, but they can help it. No man is beyond making his own decisions. I have read many stories about former gays who went out with straight pople of the opposite sex and later married them, many of them say that they couldn't be more happier in their entire lives. Technically, we are all born with a certain sinful nature. We can't rid of ourselves of it either. Not alone that is. Think about it. What if the whole world decided that sin must be purged from the human race. Well, first they would have to kill anyone who commited a sin and then kill their descendants just to make sure of that sin wont spread deeper. Yes, for any sin even lying. Eventually, the judges who carry out this sentence will take advantage of the systems and use it to kill their rivals and enemies. Then they are discovered and killed also. Then brawls and riots occur because people will resist. They all have to be killed for violent protesting. Then comes war, then anarchy, finally extinction. Face it, we're screwed either way. We as a species are not fit to exist. Unless, we are totally remade anew, we are damned to die and become "nothing."

[Philosopher Foelhe]

The end result of evil is "nothing". No really, "nothing." Evil merely seeks to undo order, destroy tranquility, and shatter peace. The end result of evil is ruin.

In that case, shouldn't evil be judged by its results? I mean, you say later on that homosexuality is evil, but homosexuality does not destroy tranquility, shatter peace, or end in ruin. So isn't your own definition out of alignment with what you consider "evil"?

Even homosexuality is a sin. Why? because homosexulity is rebellion of the natural order.

But who defines the natural order?

After all, hormones, attraction, and love are all "natural" things. And homosexuals "naturally" feel these things for one another. So isn't homosexuality then, by definition, part of the natural order?

I've actually heard a theory that homosexuality becomes prevalent in a species when the population gets out of control. Given our rapidly spiraling over-population issues, you'd think that should be taken into account.

What if everyone on earth decided to be gay because it was the hippest thing. There goes the neighborhood.

First of all, as you yourself point out, gays are born, not made. So there's a very, very small chance that everyone on Earth would suddenly decide to go same-sex on us.

Secondly, that might have been a problem fifty years ago, but in this day and age, with fertilization doctors and in vitro technologies, that wouldn't prevent the human race from breeding further.

And finally, so what? If the human race just sorta... stops, is that a problem? So long as we get things together so that the elderly can take care of themselves before dying, I don't have a problem with the human race coming to a slow stop.

Now, you say that homosexuals are born that way and they cant help being that way. Well, your half-right homos are born that way, but they can help it. No man is beyond making his own decisions.

Surely you remember the hooplah with the Catholic church when it was discovered that priests abuse children, right? A lot of psychologists pointed out that this is the sort of thing you can expect to find in a group forced into celibacy.

You should also know that, from what I understand of criminal psychology, most serial killers, during childhood, generally had two major problems growing up - either they were sexually abused, or they were taught that sexual desire was immoral and they were disgusting for having thoughts of those nature.

Here's the point I'm trying to make. Desire and attraction are forces of nature to be reckoned with. To try to sweep those feelings under the rug is VERY dangerous.

I have read many stories about former gays who went out with straight pople of the opposite sex and later married them, many of them say that they couldn't be more happier in their entire lives.

And a lot of those marriages fail. A lot. Admittedly, some succeed, but even then there are a lot of questions to consider on the basis of the partners and the situations of those marriages.

It's dishonest to enter into a marriage like this unless you really know yourself. If you are only attracted to the same sex, and have no desire to be with someone of the opposite gender except to "be normal", then you're going to put yourself and your spouse through a miserable and heartwrenching experience just so you can pat yourself on the back. That's not fair.

And a lot of people in these types of marriages say they're happier than they've ever been because they were miserable about being gay, and anything that doesn't include that back and forth see-sawing of attraction and guilt is a step up. That doesn't mean the marriage is a good one, or that they'll be happy with it in ten years.

We as a species are not fit to exist.

This quote, and the half a paragraph that came before it, sorta highlights what's wrong with the church's views, in my opinion.

You get so caught up in the horrible failures (and there are a lot, I'll admit) that you can't see the forest for the trees. You say we're worthless because we screw up. But screwing up is a learning process, and it eventually leads to success. I think that people are flawed but worthwhile, and I think the belief that we're totally worthless without God is an incredibly sad one.

I think the death penalty for every sin is ridiculous, and that if God wanted us to be perfect, he should've made us perfect. And berating us for flaws he himself put into the mix is unfair.

[jeffweeder]

quote phil
I think the death penalty for every sin is ridiculous, and that if God wanted us to be perfect, he should've made us perfect. And berating us for flaws he himself put into the mix is unfair.

How can you have your part in love, if you were made perfect, love has to be a two way street. Your a partaker ,not a programed robot. We all crawl though, before we can walk, as long as you end up running with it, youll be ok...grace

[Philosopher Foelhe]

How can you have your part in love, if you were made perfect, love has to be a two way street. Your a partaker ,not a programed robot. We all crawl though, before we can walk, as long as you end up running with it, youll be ok...grace

I agree, but the Christian God wants it both ways, and that doesn't work. Does God want us to be perfect beings without flaw? Then he should make us perfect beings without flaw. Does he want us to be loving, flawed, and willing to improve? Then he should stop throwing people into Hell when they don't get everything. Either way works, I guess.

[Freakshow]

I don't agree with you at all on the homosexual thing PheonixRIsing, but I do agree with you on the fact that mankind will never be able to get rid of sin alltogether, and to try to do so would end in chaos. Thats what I got from what you wrote anyway.

[PheonixRIsing]

You have made some good points philospher, we all are made differently, and perhaps a sudden rise in gay people could be genetic balancing of population. This does lead to ask questions like, how genetics can become aware of demography. Most people in this country are well fed, and dont particularly have huge physical restraints. So, I really wonder how we as organisms can understand population from what we see or hear. Hmm, reactive stimuli that causes change due to a non-threat, that makes me wonder. Mankind's population has grown tremendously in the past 100 years due to technology, despite war, plagues, famine, etc. It's crazy. Pretty soon we may be fighting wars over food on a global scale. Cooperation has never been mankind's preferred choice. However, the deal with the celibacy should be a choice. The Bible makes no reference that sex is evil if done in the appropriate manner. That is, with a wife. The Bible actually encourages couples to have sex, and enjoy it. Phil, we originally were perfect creatures before we ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Perhaps, had we obeyed God and not tasted it, then he may have let us taste of it, because we proved our loyalty to him by resisting temptation. Though, only God can see all outcomes.

[PheonixRIsing]

Homosexuality if left unchecked can ruin a people on the economic, political, social, and demograpic level. If a huge amount of people per population were gay, then in 50 years, there would be a lot of old people and few young people. Yes, I know that babies can now be grown in labs, which is sorta creepy, but if there are few young people, then jobs would be understaffed, Social Security couldnt pay for the elderly. Not enough people could join the military. Medical costs would soar. Not enough doctors, including the ones to make new children. See, homosexuality is counterproductive to society. Eventually the government would have to take full control and then goodbye democracy, hello despotism. It wouldn't be a pretty sight. Homosexuality only leads to eventual economic crisis.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

This does lead to ask questions like, how genetics can become aware of demography.

*chuckles* I'd have to know more about how the brain becomes homosexual to really know how to answer that question. But truthfully, I was making an argument from the belief in God. God sees mankind on the brink of destruction, using too many resources and endangering themselves, so he attempts to thin the herd. He could do so with some form of natural disaster, killing millions, but instead he chooses to be merciful and make some members of society homosexual. That way, individuals can find love, and the population can go back down.

Phil, we originally were perfect creatures before we ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Perhaps, had we obeyed God and not tasted it, then he may have let us taste of it, because we proved our loyalty to him by resisting temptation.

I still don't like it. If God did leave us in the Garden of Eden with the Tree of Knowledge, I can't help but feel it was like leaving a hand grenade in a room full of toddlers. Sure, maybe they won't screw around with it, but why take that chance? Maybe it was a test, but the tree is called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil for a reason. Until they ate from it, Adam and Eve didn't understand right from wrong. So how could they understand that to disobey God was wrong, if they didn't know what wrong even was until they'd already done it?

[PheonixRIsing]

Any creature can learn obedience, if taught correctly. God plainly told them do not eat of that tree. Even children who are very curious may sometimes listen. Now, if you have childlren always remember to childproof whatever you can, and that which you cannot, you must tell them do NOT touch. This is the whole point behind how evil creeps into a species. Intelligence does not require knowledge of good or evil, although it really helps. If mankind were created intelligently, then they would have known NOT to touch the forbidden fruit less eat it. By saying that "I am going to touch it because I want to regardless of what God says," is being greedy. Greed is truly the source of all evil. When Eve plucked the fruit from the tree, she did become conience of good and evil, but at the price of her soul. Know this, nothing in all of existence is worth your soul. 100 years is nothing compared to eternity. I like to think on a long term basis.

[PheonixRIsing]

Phil, I do believe in intelligent guidance of species, who knows maybe God does allow this to counterbalance population explosion. However, perhaps maybe the reason why homosexuality is becoming more of an issue is because the proportion of straight people to gays has remained the same throughout history, but there is more people in that percentage numerically.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

God plainly told them do not eat of that tree. Even children who are very curious may sometimes listen. Now, if you have childlren always remember to childproof whatever you can, and that which you cannot, you must tell them do NOT touch.

Right, but the problem is that you have to teach your children that listening to and obeying their parents is "good" and disobeying them is "bad". It was the acknowledgement of "good" and "bad" that damned Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil, so there was no way they should be expected to do the "right thing". A four-year-old child could be expected to listen to their parents. If they disobey, that's because the child is being naughty. On the other hand, a six-month-old doesn't understand that he or she is supposed to listen. If you left the child next to a pile of barbed wire and told it not to touch the spines, and then the kid grabbed the barbed wire and cut himself, that's not their fault. The kid was just curious. You should be blaming yourself, the parent, for putting it in a dangerous situation.

[Tryst]

the whole story is to much like the abraham one. " lets just put a tree of knowledge here and tell them 'no' ". Why would that tree need to be there? What is the purpose of that fruit that contained knowledge if God had it all anyway? Again just another test. Why the tests?

To me it says, as it was so pointed out, that it was a recipe for disaster. And further shows me this God isn't all powerfull or knowledgable.

I don't say this disproves the religions involved, but it sure takes validity away from this beings greatness.

The irony of the story is Adam and Eve learned "good/bad" after eating the fruit. From the knowledge gained as well as banishment.

[PheonixRIsing]

True, true, but our parents teach us what is good or bad based upon personal experience or prior knowledge. There is a noticable time gap between man's creation and their downfall. Perhaps God was teaching them what is good or what is bad to a point where they should have known better not to eat it. The serpent is also to blame because when another person also tells you to disobey, they are doing the devils work. The serpent told Eve that God is wrong and tha she would not die. Of course Eve could have thought in the short-term of death rather than the long view of it. Eventually, we all die because our ancestors ate of the forbidden fruit.

[PheonixRIsing]

Tryst why do teachers give their students tests? To acknowledge that they have learned the lesson that they were being taught. God will not send a test that is too hard for you to do. God did the same with Adam and Eve, he was surely teaching them good and evil, having the tree their to test their faith and obedience to him. Sadly, mankind failed.

[loganosborne]

why do teachers give their students tests?

Why do teachers give tests well its so they can sort you out into groups that have the same sort of knowledge as other people in the class.

To acknowledge that they have learned the lesson that they were being taught.

And that too.

God will not send a test that is too hard for you to do. God did the same with Adam and Eve, he was surely teaching them good and evil, having the tree their to test their faith and obedience to him. Sadly, mankind failed.

If it wasnt a hard test how did they fail then. If it was easy they would have passed wouldnt they.

[Skynet12]

Ay, and also to shoot up yer stress levels b4 the hols!

[loganosborne]

God did the same with Adam and Eve, he was surely teaching them good and evil, having the tree their to test their faith and obedience to him. Sadly, mankind failed.

Because of Adam and Eve Mankind failed so the whole of mankind had to rely on 2 people maybe at the time they were 2 people but imagine if it was someonle else who was being tested would they have done the same mistake as Adam and Eve hmm I wonder.

[PheonixRIsing]

If you had been placed in the same situation you would have failed just like Adam and Eve. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink. You can prepare as much as you want, but it wont matter if you dont take action.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

If you had been placed in the same situation you would have failed just like Adam and Eve.

... So, this test is impossible to pass? Is that what you're saying?

[loganosborne]

If you had been placed in the same situation you would have failed just like Adam and Eve. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink. You can prepare as much as you want, but it wont matter if you dont take action.

So youre saying this is a easy test but no one can pass it. So how can it be easy.

[Skynet12]

Hmmm, weird...

[Tryst]

Tests... ok.. lets see here..

if i was to send a hot sexy women over to my significant other, then berate him for talking to her or even looking at her and heck, having sex with her. All by my doing, would i have any right to get pissed?

point is, is it fair to test loved ones in such severe ways.

my question isn't the reasoning behind a test. i understand the basics of it. my question is why something supposedly perfect and all knowing would have to TEST anyone. if IT really loves all people as much as it says, why test that love? Think this god should exercise a little faith, itself.

In all honesty i think the story is only a parable to explain the begining of the world and create some degree of morality in people. Not only that but there is no time frame to the story at all. How long was Adam around before Eve? How long were they together before the "casting out"? How would Adam even know obedience when he was born/created as a full grown adult male? How would anyone test someone who has the capacity of a new born? And if they were around for a while before all this, why no kids (before the casting out)? If i recall Adam noticed pairing animals and felt lonely so God created Eve for him. I am sure he would of figured out coupling like the rest of the critters in the garden.

It's a creation story much like others that have been around before it.

[loganosborne]

If you had been placed in the same situation you would have failed just like Adam and Eve. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink. You can prepare as much as you want, but it wont matter if you dont take action.

Oh I forgot to say how do you know I would of failed you will never know that. How do you know that everyone would fail no matter what.

[Skynet12]

Sounds like summit jake99 would have said in his 'infinute wisdom!'

[loganosborne]

Sounds like summit jake99 would have said in his 'infinute wisdom!'

Who are you refering to.