Is Capital Punishment a Solution?

[lycanox]

Ass less as possible.

you simply cant safe every innocent of being prosecuted. but don't forget, you can throw the same card against every punishment possible.
You cant simply spend thousands if not millions of dollars that can be used to actually prevent crime to jailing people endlessly. Just because some of them might be innocent.

[DontBeAfraid]

Thats not an answer lycanox. How many innocent people are you willing to murder?

[Perfectionist]

Even if that innocent person is you? Or perhaps your mother or father? Or your best friend? Be consistant now.

Yes !! For the greater good go I !!

The prisons are not stuffed full of the people you want to kill, they are full of victims of the war on drugs. You morons would do better to refocus the energy you spend wishing to murder people on trying to right that injustice.

Not quite ..... all kinds of criminality is rampant ..... however I have no problem with drugs !

To me "soft" drugs are no more damaging than alcohol or tobacco ..... and should be just as freely available .....

"Hard" drugs are very harmful ..... but I still believe they should be freely available because :-
1) The fact they are illegal means a black-market for them will inevitably form
2) This black-market will supply drugs of dubious quality which may be even more harmful than the genuine stuff
3) The black-market will naturally charge inflated prices which will force users to do anything to finance their expensive habit and so create further crime
4) All the massive profits from the black-market will finance other illegal activities
5) Intense competition from black-market dealers will follow through with violence which may overflow into civilian casualties
6) etc etc

If the government started selling cannabis and cocaine from specific pharmacies, just like any other drug it would make the country a better place to live in because :-
1) The drugs would be regulated and tested for purity and safety
2) Users would be registered and given advice on safe levels of consumption
3) Legal mass production (with no profiteering) would bring the price down to what is easily affordable
4) All profits would be Taxed and provide revenue for the Government
5) Drug use will actually drop once the "image" of illegality has ceased ..... kids think drugs are "cool" because they are "bad" ....
6) Excessive drug users will eventually overdose and die ..... removing them from society .... and further reinforce the negative image .....
7) Drug Dealers and Gangsters would be driven out of existence ..... serious and petty crime levels would plummet .....
8) All the money and resources wasted on fighting the war on drugs (including its knock-on effects) would be saved and could be spent elsewhere in the community
9)

The Americans tried Prohibition ..... all it did was create a stronghold for Organised Crime ..... Narcotics is the contemporary equivalent ......

[Perfectionist]

How many innocent people would you yourself murder to create this utopia you envision?

Do you even understand my argument?

Dude, you are vastly exaggerating the number of innocent people that might be killed in such a system !! We are talking only a tiny fraction of 1% !!

With greater technology and Police resources, few if any innocent people would be found guilty .....

However, no matter what you do, it is almost a certainty that things will sometimes go wrong and a tiny number of people would be undeservedly given the death sentenced ..... it's called sacrifice .....

Society always has and always will take risks and sacrifice for the greater good .....

Should we have just stood by and watched Hitler take over the world because our soldiers may have to sacrifice their lives in fighting him ??

Should we cancel all Space research because of the risk that Astronauts may die in a tragic accident ??

I think it's you that doesn't understand the argument ..... giving out the Death Sentence is a risk and some innocent people may die ..... but it is completely worth it .....

[MaximumPain]

I don’t have a problem with capital punishment I have a problem with the administration of it. I don’t trust any government to apply it fairly or take enough precautions to insure the people who are executed are truly guilty. In America many of the people on death row are poor and black there have been many documented cases of people turning out to be innocent of the crimes they were to be killed for. In my opinion even one mistake is too many. Also governments have been known to use capital punishment to silence dissenters and get ride of inconvenient people. Of course I have been fortunate not to have lost a loved one to a murderer or tyrant perhaps if I had I would feel differently.

[Perfectionist]

Good Point ..... but the Government doesn't need a death penalty to keep people quiet ..... the prison system as it is now works just as well !! And don't forget Guantanamo Bay !!

As for the people sitting on death row who were found innocent .... more than likely they were guilty of some other equally despicable crime .....

The police and legal system is not perfect by any means ..... but you don't just get convicted of rape/child abuse/murder etc without having some kind of evidence, background or history .....

There is no chance that Mother Teresa would be found guilty of anything like that no matter how flawed the system was !!

[MaximumPain]

Good Point ..... but the Government doesn't need a death penalty to keep people quiet ..... the prison system as it is now works just as well !! And don't forget Guantanamo Bay !!

Truth

As for the people sitting on death row who were found innocent .... more than likely they were guilty of some other equally despicable crime .....

This is a logic that has been used to hang innocent men.

The police and legal system is not perfect by any means ..... but you don't just get convicted of rape/child abuse/murder etc without having some kind of evidence, background or history .....

Not always true some people just get railroaded and all it takes is one innocent and its injustice.

There is no chance that Mother Teresa would be found guilty of anything like that no matter how flawed the system was !!

Unless she pissed of someone powerful by messing with their power. Of course she would just have an accident instead.

[DontBeAfraid]

it's called sacrifice .....

Everyone is willing to make sacrifices, especially when its someone else you offer. And its called MURDER.

Until you show me some statistics where having capital punishment directly relates to a decrease in crime you should stop touting its "benefits". It does nothing to stop crime, as can be evidenced by the fact that governments have been murdering people for most recorded history and crime rates have done nothing but increase in corrolation with the population size.

If we were to end the silly war on drugs our prisons would be more than enough to house people for life.

So the question still remains and is now to all advocates of state sanctioned murder: How many Innocent people would you, yourself, be willing to murder in order to continue to recieve your percieved "benefits"? This is the sacrifice you all briefly refer to when making your arguments.

I couldnt ask even one to endure this; not a loved one, not even a stranger. Even if that means that adolf hitler and saddam share a prison cell for the rest of my life.

[lycanox]

Dude, you are vastly exaggerating the number of innocent people that might be killed in such a system !! We are talking only a tiny fraction of 1% !!

With greater technology and Police resources, few if any innocent people would be found guilty .....

However, no matter what you do, it is almost a certainty that things will sometimes go wrong and a tiny number of people would be undeservedly given the death sentenced ..... it's called sacrifice .....

Society always has and always will take risks and sacrifice for the greater good .....

Should we have just stood by and watched Hitler take over the world because our soldiers may have to sacrifice their lives in fighting him ??

Should we cancel all Space research because of the risk that Astronauts may die in a tragic accident ??

I think it's you that doesn't understand the argument ..... giving out the Death Sentence is a risk and some innocent people may die ..... but it is completely worth it .....

My point exactly!
Perfectionist explains it pretty well here.

[MaximumPain]

NO!!! Not one innocent person should die for your perceved satisfaction NOT ONE!!! If it was your child or father or friend that was innocent but condemed to die you would understand. Capital punishment does nothing but end someones life. It dosent deter crime and it is not justice its just revenge and it just continues to cycle of violence. Countries with capital punishment do not have lower crime rates there is no proof that it helps jack squat!

[Stabby Joe]

NO!!! Not one innocent person should die for your perceved satisfaction NOT ONE!!! If it was your child or father or friend that was innocent but condemed to die you would understand. Capital punishment does nothing but end someones life. It dosent deter crime and it is not justice its just revenge and it just continues to cycle of violence. Countries with capital punishment do not have lower crime rates there is no proof that it helps jack squat!

Some stuff if you want. Keep in mind this is only the deterancy part of it.

These are satistics.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/deterrence.html
This is just opinion but a debate none the less.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/c/capitalp.htm
This one includes racist notations.
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0525-06.htm
This one talks about costs.
http://www.law.columbia.edu/law_scho.../capitalpunish

[MaximumPain]

Thanks for the links Stabby.

Here is a nice one from the second one

18th century BCE Babylonian Law of Hammurabi:

If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death. If it kills the son of the owner, then the son of that builder shall be put to death.

[Perfectionist]

This is a logic that has been used to hang innocent men.

True .... but only a few .... most of these guys may not have been guilty of the exact murder they were convicted of, but more than likely were guilty of a similar murder of somebody else .....

You need to stop fantasizing that prisoners are all "Angels" who have been framed by the Police .....

Anyway, using YOUR logic ..... you'd be letting these sick bastards serve their time and then be let out ..... to murder countless more victims .....

[DontBeAfraid]

Anyway, using YOUR logic ..... you'd be letting these sick bastards serve their time and then be let out ..... to murder countless more victims .....

Can you not read? or do you just have poor comprehension skills?

[Perfectionist]

Can you not read? or do you just have poor comprehension skills?

Seems you either have a low IQ or a short attention span .....

"The prisons are full to the brim ..... criminals sue their victims while sitting in their cells ..... keeping a scumbag locked up costs approx £60,000 per year ..... a life sentence no longer actually means life, only 25 years which will be drastically reduced by a good appeal or good behaviour ..... a huge proportion of ex-cons re-offend within 12 months of being let out ..... etc etc"

[Perfectionist]

Everyone is willing to make sacrifices, especially when its someone else you offer. And its called MURDER.

Really, so do you think all the Soldiers or Fire Fighters etc are sending in body doubles to do their jobs ??

They are risking their OWN lives every day for the rest of us ..... it's so common that we take it for granted .....

Dude, are you actually just talking about yourself here .... is there nothing you would be willing to risk your life for ??

Until you show me some statistics where having capital punishment directly relates to a decrease in crime you should stop touting its "benefits". It does nothing to stop crime, as can be evidenced by the fact that governments have been murdering people for most recorded history and crime rates have done nothing but increase in corrolation with the population size.

The only "statistics" you've probably seen are from the US ..... which only has a very timidly implemented and wildly inconsistent system .....

A better example (though still nowhere near perfect) would be some of the Middle Eastern countries or China - Beijing and even Shanghai are some of the safest cities in the world

If we were to end the silly war on drugs our prisons would be more than enough to house people for life.

True ..... but I'd still rather spend the money on life saving operations for new born babies ..... than keep a sick pedophile in a cell with cable TV .....

So the question still remains and is now to all advocates of state sanctioned murder: How many Innocent people would you, yourself, be willing to murder in order to continue to recieve your percieved "benefits"? This is the sacrifice you all briefly refer to when making your arguments.

Well lets see .... the UK has a prison population of about 75,000 prisoners .... with about 10% in the most dangerous category ..... therefore I'd happily see the State starve 7,500 of the most sick and depraved to death ..... for the sake of argument lets say 1% were wrongly convicted (although it's more like 1/10th of 1% if not a lot less) ..... that would mean 75 so-called "innocent" people would die ..... about the same number of children that die of poverty in the Third World every 3 minutes ..... I wonder if you care about their lives as much as the rapist's ??

Anyway, this would immediately save the UK Government £500 Million EVERY year plus 100's Millions more in additional costs/effects/bureaucracy etc .....

Enough money to pay for at least another 25,000 Teachers, Nurses or Policeman ..... it's a simple and stark choice .....

I couldnt ask even one to endure this; not a loved one, not even a stranger. Even if that means that adolf hitler and saddam share a prison cell for the rest of my life.

If Hitler was captured during WW2 - I'd rather he was burnt at the stake or maybe eaten by Lions or perhaps slowly boiled alive .....

Dude, your bleeding heart "save the rapists" perspective on things would change instantly ..... if one of your loved ones was brutally tortured and murdered ..... in fact, if you actually caught the guy before he escaped, you'd probably kill him yourself .....

[Stabby Joe]

Hmmm... actually, anyone considered drastic costs to prisons IE food, no luxeries?

[onewayout]

kill one who has killed all. =\

[DontBeAfraid]

Perfectionist you are trying to compare very different things. Soldiers fighting for this or that or whatever is not the same at all as you murdering an innocent person in order to perpetuate a system that makes you "feel" good.

So can you answer the question? How many innocent people would YOU murder to maintain this system? This is the sacrifice required for THIS debate. Its not the same sacrifice a firefighter might make at all.

[MaximumPain]

Its obvious that there is no changing your closed mind perfectionist.

True .... but only a few .... most of these guys may not have been guilty of the exact murder they were convicted of, but more than likely were guilty of a similar murder of somebody else .....

And as I already said

This is a logic that has been used to hang innocent men.

You need to stop fantasizing that prisoners are all "Angels" who have been framed by the Police .....

I never said that all criminals are angels; I said that the powers of the state to imprison and execute people has and will continue to be abused.
It is you that are fanaticizing that all people convicted of a crime are truly guilty, innocent people have been and will continue to be wrongly accused through accident or malicious intent.

Anyway, using YOUR logic ..... you'd be letting these sick bastards serve their time and then be let out ..... to murder countless more victims .....

Who said anything about letting people out? This discussion is about capital punishment not life long incarceration. I love how you constantly put words into peoples mouths.

[Assassin X]

Since I get no help from the goverment or people around me I actually had a prison guard friend of mine tell me at least if I was in prison I would actually have meals, health care, reading materials, HECK, I could even get a degree. Psh, so why am I struggling when all I need to do is murder someone and have a better life in prison?

I think the whole "1%" of people are innocent is crap. How can anyone say that? No one can. The only people that know whos innocent are the person inside and the person that they seen (like if they "supposedly" murdered them). We have alot more innocent in prison then we should according to the a few specials I seen but its to hard to for anybody to help them all.

Heck we know someone that was put in prison because the daughter said her dad molested her and other things but a year later said she was joking and just wanted to see him put away because she didn't get what she wanted. We tried getting him out of prison and getting her to tell the truth but hes still stuck in prison to this day.

Its easy to say "There just innocent, they can die if it means the guilty are dead". Ok, everyone in this room, your spouse, girl/boy friend, kid....etc is in prison. They are going to die. What do you do? By your own words you can't complain because that wouldn't be right.

[DontBeAfraid]

Wow AX, despite your horrible grammar I think you and I are on the same page here.

[Perfectionist]

Perfectionist you are trying to compare very different things. Soldiers fighting for this or that or whatever is not the same at all as you murdering an innocent person in order to perpetuate a system that makes you "feel" good.

It's naive of you to think Soldiers do not (intentionally or by accident) kill innocent people ..... collateral damage is a fact of war ....

More importantly, killing convicted rapists doesn't intrinsically make me "feel" good (keeping them alive makes YOU "feel" good doesn't it!) ..... what does make me feel good is that the resources used to keep them locked up will now be spent elsewhere in society on people who are far more deserving .....

So can you answer the question? How many innocent people would YOU murder to maintain this system? This is the sacrifice required for THIS debate. Its not the same sacrifice a firefighter might make at all.

Dude, I already answered your question here FFS :

Well lets see .... the UK has a prison population of about 75,000 prisoners .... with about 10% in the most dangerous category ..... therefore I'd happily see the State starve 7,500 of the most sick and depraved to death ..... for the sake of argument lets say 1% were wrongly convicted (although it's more like 1/10th of 1% if not a lot less) ..... that would mean 75 so-called "innocent" people would die ..... about the same number of children that die of poverty in the Third World every 3 minutes ..... I wonder if you care about their lives as much as the rapist's ??

And yes, I would be happy to PERSONALLY kill all 7,500 of these sick bastards .....

[Perfectionist]

Its obvious that there is no changing your closed mind perfectionist.

What a dumb thing to say !! You won't be changing your mind either !! Which makes you closed minded as well dude !!

I never said that all criminals are angels; I said that the powers of the state to imprison and execute people has and will continue to be abused.

True ..... I never said it wasn't ..... however if the state wants to get rid of someone they have far more efficient ways to do it, than frame him as a child molester .....

It is you that are fanaticizing that all people convicted of a crime are truly guilty, innocent people have been and will continue to be wrongly accused through accident or malicious intent.

I never said the legal system was perfect, everybody knows it isn't ...... but for the kind of sick crimes that I believe should be dealt with by a death penalty, the evidence would be very strong .....

Just because there is a slim chance that 1 out of 1,000 convicted child murderers may be innocent ..... doesn't mean we should let the other 999 have an easy ride !!

Seems you think the vast majority of prisoners are innocent of the crimes they are convicted of ??

Who said anything about letting people out? This discussion is about capital punishment not life long incarceration. I love how you constantly put words into peoples mouths.

Simpleton !!

The thread is about Capital Punishment !! That is what I am posting in support of !!

YOU are the fool who keeps bleating on about giving them life long incarceration !!

I love how you constantly make yourself look like a frikkin idiot !!

[Perfectionist]

Since I get no help from the goverment or people around me I actually had a prison guard friend of mine tell me at least if I was in prison I would actually have meals, health care, reading materials, HECK, I could even get a degree. Psh, so why am I struggling when all I need to do is murder someone and have a better life in prison?

You are damn right !!

I think the whole "1%" of people are innocent is crap. How can anyone say that? No one can. The only people that know whos innocent are the person inside and the person that they seen (like if they "supposedly" murdered them). We have alot more innocent in prison then we should according to the a few specials I seen but its to hard to for anybody to help them all.

I used 1% purely for the sake of argument ..... the legal system if funked up but it isn't so bad that it gets it wrong the majority of the time ..... mistakes will always happen, but they are very rare and often found out about and corrected .....

Heck we know someone that was put in prison because the daughter said her dad molested her and other things but a year later said she was joking and just wanted to see him put away because she didn't get what she wanted. We tried getting him out of prison and getting her to tell the truth but hes still stuck in prison to this day.

What a sick little bitch !! However are you saying that ALL people in prison for molesting are innocent ??

Its easy to say "There just innocent, they can die if it means the guilty are dead". Ok, everyone in this room, your spouse, girl/boy friend, kid....etc is in prison. They are going to die. What do you do? By your own words you can't complain because that wouldn't be right.

No I wouldn't complain !!

In fact, if I found out someone in my family had murdered a child or brutally raped a woman etc etc ..... I'd frikkin kill the sick bastard myself !!